Drug addicts, alcoholics etc?

[DrAndy]

I am one of those people who do not believe in people who claim they are whatever-oholics, there is no such thing. Drug addicts, alcoholics, smokers etc etc, they are just self-centred people who have no control, who abuse themselves to almost the point of no return

A whole industry has grown up around the concept of people having a defect and being an *oholic etc. So there are vested interests in promoting this view.

yes, the substances they use have some addiction, but any normal person can, and do, just get off them

It seems most of the alcoholics, for instance, cannot say no, they just have to keep drinking as if they have no self control. They need to go to AA and take part in a program to teach them that they must not drink at all, never

I don't believe alcoholism is a medical illness but a failure of the person to address their problem, the self abuse is a mental problem

Yes, a substance abuser will need help to detoxify, gradually, but they need to address their mental illness, their probable cause of their self abuse

[Fondles]

And your point is ??

[DrAndy]

can you read? As this is a forum, you are allowed to put your own point of view, if you have one

[Thaihome]

I think you contradict yourself. You start out saying that you don’t agree that addicts have a “defect” and they are just self-centered people with no self-control but you finish by saying they need to address their mental health issues which are causing their self abuse.
Are you saying that the mental problems are not a “defect”?

What exactly are you trying to say?
TH

[blackgang]

I can read, and I do know about the disease as I have it, and I will die with it and I will also die sober as I now have 29 years of continmuous sobriety.

Managing alcoholism as a disease
The debate on whether alcoholism is a disease or a personal conduct problem has continued for over 200 years. In the United States, Benjamin Rush, MD, has been credited with first identifying alcoholism as a "disease" in 1784. He asserted that alcohol was the causal agent, loss of control over drinking behavior being the characteristic symptom, and total abstinence the only effective cure. His belief in this concept was so strong that he spearheaded a public education campaign in the United States to reduce public drunkenness.
The 1800s gave rise to the temperance movement in the United States. Alcohol was perceived as evil, the root cause of America’s problems. Accepting the disease concept of alcoholism, people believed that liquor could enslave a person against his or her will. Temperance proponents propagated the view that drinking was so dangerous that people should not even sample liquor or else they would likely embark on the path toward alcoholism. This ideology maintained that alcohol is inevitably dangerous and inexorably addictive for everyone. Today, we know that strong genetic influences exist, but not everyone becomes addicted to alcohol.
The temperance movement picked up steam in the late 1800s and evolved into a movement advocating the prohibition of alcohol nationally. Banning alcohol would preserve the family and eliminate sloth and moral dissolution in the United States, according to supporters. Backed by strong political forces, legislation was passed and prohibition went into effect in 1920. Paradoxically, the era of prohibition also marked the death of Victorian standards. According to A. Sinclair in his book, Prohibition: The Era of Excess, a code of liberated personal behavior grew and with it the idea that drinking should accompany a full life. Drunkenness represented personal freedom. Due to public outcry, prohibition was repealed in 1933.
Soon after prohibition ended, Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) was born. Formed in 1935 by stockbroker Bill Wilson and a physician, Robert Smith, AA supported the proposition that an alcoholic is unable to control his or her drinking and recovery is possible only with total abstinence and peer support. The chief innovation in the AA philosophy was that it proposed a biological explanation for alcoholism. Alcoholics constituted a special group who are unable to control their drinking from birth. Initially, AA described this as "an allergy to alcohol."
Although AA was instrumental in again emphasizing the "disease concept" of alcoholism, the defining work was done by Elvin Jellinek, M.D., of the Yale Center of Alcohol Studies. In his book, The Disease Concept of Alcoholism, published in 1960, Jellinek described alcoholics as individuals with tolerance, withdrawal symptoms, and either "loss of control" or "inability to abstain" from alcohol. He asserted that these individuals could not drink in moderation, and, with continued drinking, the disease was progressive and life-threatening. Jellinek also recognized that some features of the disease (e.g., inability to abstain and loss of control) were shaped by cultural factors.
During the past 35 years, numerous studies by behavioral and social scientists have supported Jellinek’s contentions about alcoholism as a disease. The American Medical Association endorsed the concept in 1957. The American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the World Health Organization and the American College of Physicians have also classified alcoholism as a disease. In addition, the findings of investigators in the late 1970s led to explicit criteria for an "alcohol dependence syndrome" which are now listed in the DSM IIR, DSM IV, and the ICD manual. In a 1992 JAMA article, the Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine published this definition for alcoholism: "Alcoholism is a primary chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, mostly denial. Each of these symptoms may be continuous or periodic."

[hillbilly]

...as if they have no self control.

I wonder what is the support group called for people who always like to argue?

[Stinky]

...as if they have no self control.

I wonder what is the support group called for people who always like to argue?

Well done mate, wish I'd got ther first

[buriramboy]

i drink by choice, i am probably by definition an alcoholic but i don't give a toss, but i hardly drink anything these days compared to when i lived in Thailand. Could i live without alcohol at all, maybe/maybe not, but i have no desire to find out.

[SEA Traveler]

I can read, and I do know about the disease as I have it, and I will die with it and I will also die sober as I now have 29 years of continmuous sobriety.

my congrats to you BG for your continued efforts of sobriety. Hoooooa for BG. 2 points for the good guys. keep up the good work BG.

[DrAndy]

I wonder what is the support group called for people who always like to argue?

Democracy?

Well done mate, wish I'd got ther first

well, you didn't

[DrAndy]

You start out saying that you don’t agree that addicts have a “defect” and they are just self-centered people with no self-control but you finish by saying they need to address their mental health issues which are causing their self abuse.

well, being self-centred with no self control could be classed as a mental health problem, but not a disease

calling it a disease takes away the responsibility for their actions

[Stinky]

...as if they have no self control.

I wonder what is the support group called for people who always like to argue?

Well done mate, wish I'd got ther first

Just light banter Doc

I wonder what is the support group called for people who always like to argue?

Democracy

Well done mate, wish I'd got ther first

well, you didn't

Still, it was bloody funny, more so because you dont like jokes

[Rural Surin]

And your point is ??

A broader, more underlying conclusion might be that such 'afflictions' are basically invented and fabricated for the gullible masses. Simply, social engineering.

[Rural Surin]

....there is nothing more obsessed and 'self-important' than a reformer or a reformed _________

[blackgang]

there is nothing more obsessed and 'self-important' than a reformer or a reformed

Yes there is and you prove it everytime you touch the keyboard.
And who said anything about a reformer or reformed,, please stay on subject if you are going to post over here with us.

[DrAndy]

Just light banter Doc

yes, I noticed the smiley

Still, it was bloody funny, more so because you dont like jokes

oh, I like jokes, but they have to be funny, or at least amusing

[DrAndy]

And your point is ??

A broader, more underlying conclusion might be that such 'afflictions' are basically invented and fabricated for the gullible masses. Simply, social engineering.

that and the large industry that supports the theories

as for "reformed" alcoholics, they are just people who have managed to control their lack of control!

[Stinky]

Just light banter Doc

yes, I noticed the smiley

Still, it was bloody funny, more so because you dont like jokes

oh, I like jokes, but they have to be funny, or at least amusing

Oh come on Doc, you got to admit hillbilly's funny was just that, funny

If it wasn't I wouldn't have laughed would I

[blackgang]

that and the large industry that supports the theories

So you actually believe in the Tooth Fiery, I know you believe in Ray Fiery.
And do you really believe that the Dr.Andy nic actually qualifies to talk and discuss diseases and medical terminology and such things as sickness, Disease and the treatment of Physical and Mental disorders just because you happen to have a mental affliction and have not found a cure for it yet?

Come, Come now my good man, you happen to be a Chav don't you?

[DrAndy]

Just light banter Doc

yes, I noticed the smiley

Still, it was bloody funny, more so because you dont like jokes

oh, I like jokes, but they have to be funny, or at least amusing

Oh come on Doc, you got to admit hillbilly's funny was just that, funny

If it wasn't I wouldn't have laughed would I

yes, Hillys little joke was funny, quite sharp

why you laugh is your business, though smiley smiley

[blackgang]

my congrats to you BG for your continued efforts of sobriety. Hoooooa for BG. 2 points for the good guys. keep up the good work BG.

Thanks Traveler, hope you have settled in OK, I haven't seen much of ya,, did you finish that job in Poland or where ever it was?

[blackgang]

For those interested in this, here is a good link with a lot of answers you will not get from the good Dr.A, as he only seems to have his own ideas which are not substantiated even by his mates.

Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism Causes, Symptoms, Signs and Disease Treatment on MedicineNet.com

[DrAndy]

So you actually believe in the Tooth Fiery, I know you believe in Ray Fiery. And do you really believe that the Dr.Andy nic actually qualifies to talk and discuss diseases and medical terminology and such things as sickness, Disease and the treatment of Physical and Mental disorders just because you happen to have a mental affliction and have not found a cure for it yet? Come, Come now my good man, you happen to be a Chav don't you?

what I believe is that so-called addicitions are mainly the lack of self control on the part of the addict, more a mental problem than a physical disease

I believe that calling it a physical disease lets the addicts deny any responsibility for their actions, whether that be alcoholics, obese food addicts, drug addicts, whoever

In addition, a large industry has grown up on the backs of these addicts that supports the disease theory so that they can keep their jobs and research grants

[nidhogg]

It seems most of the alcoholics, for instance, cannot say no, they just have to keep drinking as if they have no self control. They need to go to AA and take part in a program to teach them that they must not drink at all, never

I don't believe alcoholism is a medical illness but a failure of the person to address their problem, the self abuse is a mental problem

Yes, a substance abuser will need help to detoxify, gradually, but they need to address their mental illness, their probable cause of their self abuse

Yes, they all just need a good talking to eh?

But lets look at it from another direction. Firstly, what IS "self control"? Where does "self control" come from? Are we all born with the same amount? Do we learn it as kids? Do we all have the same capacity to "learn" self control, and do we all inherintly have the same amount of "self control" as adults, whether learnt or inherent?

Until we define those terms, and answer those questions, how can we start to address whether something like "alcoholism" can purely be defined in terms of "lack of self control".

Bottom line is, many, many studies have shown that different people have different susceptibilities to addictive substances (take your pick). Much of this is tied up in the exact nature of specific molecules in the brain - you can do your own reading if you like (serotonin for example is heavily implicated in alcoholism and other psychiatric disorders).

Point being, that blaming say, and alcoholic for his addiction and saying its becuase of lack of control, may be the equivalent of trying to cure a schizophrenic by telling him to pull his socks up and stop being such a ninny.

[DrAndy]

For those interested in this, here is a good link with a lot of answers you will not get from the good Dr.A, as he only seems to have his own ideas which are not substantiated even by his mates.

Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism Causes, Symptoms, Signs and Disease Treatment on MedicineNet.com

that is a typical article that supports the whole industry of "alcoholism"