Australia - where private education is publicly funded

[panama hat]

Ok, this has been a bugbear of mine since I was at school . . . and I have had many spirited discussions with KingW about this for close to a decade.

Situation:
Australia supports private schools financially, through tax revenue.

Australian private schools (for the Brits, a private school, in Australia is the equivalent of a 'Public' school in your parts . . though why you call private schools 'public' I don't know - well, I do but it shuld be changed)


Anyway, private schools in Australia are burgeoning while the public sector is crumbling . . . part of that is the teachers' union, but that's another matter . . . and in this downturn in the 'Lucky Country' more and more funds are being directed towards private schools.

The article in question shows an Americanisation of our school system, relatively unheard of in Australia - the number of scholarships and grants etc... janded out by these private schools is being funded by some poor schmuck in Sydney's western suburbs whose kids go to a second rate school with second rate teachers and second rate school amenities . . . he can't afford to send his kids to private school yet he has to support the wealthy.

College accused of 'buying' team with scholarships

No one could be prouder of The Scots College's sporting success than its headmaster. In an email to parents sent from his Bellevue Hill office on Friday, Ian Lambert made no apologies for scoring excellence on the field.
He boasted about the school's recent premiership success and its improved win-loss ratio across all age groups, teams and sports. The prestigious private school was working with the University of Sydney on the latest research into student sleep patterns, diet and sports technologies, he said.

The school's director of sports science, Tensing Tsewang. Photo: Scots College website
The school's new high-performance centre ''provides all boys with wonderful access to research in the sphere of physiology, data collection and analysis and evidence-based planning'', Lambert added. Indeed, one NRL insider tells Fairfax Media the centre is better equipped than most professional rugby league clubs.

A parent of a former senior student at Scots, who declined to be named, says the school's sports program went further still. ''Dr Ian Lambert decided they should win a basketball premiership, so they went out and basically bought an entire team with scholarships and dumped the team that should have been in the firsts.



College accused of 'buying' team with scholarships

Now, before anyone accuses me of envy . . . My old school is just down the road from the school in question, charges higher fees and sits pretty much on Sydney Harbour . . . so, no sours grapes, just feeling disgusted that this unacceptable practice continues

[9999]

The Teacher's Union are a joke and they play some pretty hard ball politics too. They chew up guys like willy and spit them out.

I've seen the big changes in Canberra. My old High School, which was a shit hole, but of a rough school I remember there was always rubbish everywhere and we had to do 'Emu Patrol' and shit, has now turned into a 'Super School'.

This means they shut down a heap of schools in the area and make one big one. The downside is transport - pretty much all kids are catching buses now, the upside is much better facilities especially in the vocational training. This is all free public, government funded, and I don't think it's a bad thing. I'm sure not everywhere is like Canberra though.

[bobforest]

It's not only happening at one school and in one sport on Oz - the private schools have been locking up the rugby union and league talent for years through the use of scholarships. Kurtley Beale is a product of such a process.

Must have learnt it from the Pommie schools and such austere academic institutions as Oxford and Cambridge who compete with each other to snatch any decent rowers from anywhere in the world.

Sydney Uni does the same thing with scholarships and, as a result, has dominated the club rugby competition in Sydney for the last few years.

[panama hat]

I'm sure not everywhere is like Canberra though.

Canberra would probably be an exception, I'd say

Sydney Uni does the same thing with scholarships and, as a result, has dominated the club rugby competition in Sydney for the last few years.

A good example . . . and I think it's great, but our Unis are stuffed full of fee-paying Asians who go there for the academic qualifications, not to celebrate sports.
I did my bachelors at UNSW and we pretty much sucked in comparison to Sydney who seem to take this much more seriously.

It's not only happening at one school and in one sport on Oz - the private schools have been locking up the rugby union and league talent for years through the use of scholarships.

Oh, absolutely right. My old school, Cranbrook, was mainly focused on cricket and rowing - but this situation is different.

My gripe is that they are using public funds to not only pay themselves but also use these funds to do this kind of crap . . .

Unacceptable

[crepitas]

not sure what goes on now in Oz but sent my twin lads to a tutor to make sure they passed to get into Melbourne High..both succeeded .. did ask if it was because they were brothers that they both got in..no if they or one had failed the entrance exam that would be it.
Anyways great school superior in many ways to private expensive schools and lots of competition and a bit of resentmant between..
So did not do them any harm..Army cadets, band,sport,art etc..Uni' thereafter.
.. many famous Australians attended MH....
Now, one is a cop in Canada t'other at Emirates Dubai

Maybe all different now as this was 10-15 yrs ago?

[Marmite the Dog]

Australian private schools (for the Brits, a private school, in Australia is the equivalent of a 'Public' school in your parts . . though why you call private schools 'public' I don't know - well, I do but it shuld be changed)

It's because the UK has an actual history...

[panama hat]

Maybe all different now as this was 10-15 yrs ago?

No, there are still selective public schools like MH and Sydney Grammar - but they are limited to single digits I'd say . . . You can rightly be proud of your kids

It's because the UK has an actual history...

So does herpes

Boom-Tish!

[Marmite the Dog]

Public meaning open to anyone regardless of their religion, as opposed to the other schools which were all church sponsored at the time.

[panama hat]

I knew that . . . had to look it up, though.

Australia has history, but it's really not our own - we base ours on some bizarre idea that Australia was some kind of Terrra Nullis when the Brits arrived . . . but now we briefly discuss how Aboriginals inhabited the place . . . and not much more about them - definitely nothing about almost extinguishing a whole culture. And the English were bad

Hardly anyone can identify with this part of history

Then we have the penal colony which went through a brief spell of pride at being some impoverished Irish thief sent to do hard labour . . . and the English were bad.

Then we had the great times our soldiers - aka Diggers - did us proud at being slaughtered on the front lines . . . sent there as cannon fodder . . . and the English were bad.

Now we teach how multicultural Australia functions, how we all live in peace and harmony, respecting one's cultural heritage ... while the Lebs and Viets fight it out for the drug trade, the Korean and Chinese triads and gangs fight it out for the protection rackets and the wonderful ex-Yugoslav nations beat each other senseless at the football/soccer because we base our teams on ethnicity. . . and the English are only bad when we lose to them at cricket/rugby and now swimming.

I am neither Asian, English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh etc... nor do I have a dark five o'clock shadow and hairy shoulders to show where I am from so I can't identify with the current history.

History schmistory

Anyway . . . Scots Schools is ranked 80th in scholastic achievement while a public school is Number 1 . . .

[kingwilly]

Ok, this has been a bugbear of mine since I was at school . . . and I have had many spirited discussions with KingW about this for close to a decade.

True enough.

Situation:
Australia supports private schools financially, through tax revenue.

these private schools is being funded by some poor schmuck in Sydney's western suburbs whose kids go to a second rate school with second rate teachers and second rate school amenities . . . he can't afford to send his kids to private school yet he has to support the wealthy.

Not quite accurate, Australia provides some financial subsidy through the tax revenue to private schools, it is much less than what is given to public schools.

All parents pay tax, therefore all parents are entitled to have their schooling receive some measure of funding regardless of where they choose to send their children.

If I pay taxes, and I do, then I'm entitled to see some of those taxes go towards my child's education, which I do. It's irrelevant that I choose to send my son to a Grammar school, which I do. The fact that I exercise that right should not mean I lose my right to tax funding for education.

The Teacher's Union are a joke and they play some pretty hard ball politics too.

Thugs and wankers, interested in continuing an us vs them attitude and feathering their own nests at the expense of the ordinary union member, expense of the schools and expense of the student.

They chew up guys like willy and spit them out.

is this the point where I argue that you wouldn't survive in a real school? That I'd chew the shitty little unionists up for breakfast?

How do you even make such a comment based on an internet forum personae? Even if I am now tutoring kids at my McDs as part of my business plan?

[crepitas]

Maybe all different now as this was 10-15 yrs ago?

No, there are still selective public schools like MH and Sydney Grammar - but they are limited to single digits I'd say . . . You can rightly be proud of your kids

It's because the UK has an actual history...

So does herpes

Boom-Tish!

Thx mate..little disappointing there is no "shop" training in MHS..don't think either of my boys know how to toenail a 2x4 ,fix a toaster or hang a picture...lol

[panama hat]

Not quite accurate, Australia provides some financial subsidy through the tax revenue to private schools, it is much less than what is given to public schools.

And so it should be . . . actually, no. Private schools should not receive a dollar in public funds for all the reasons stated above

All parents pay tax, therefore all parents are entitled to have their schooling receive some measure of funding regardless of where they choose to send their children.

True enough that all parents pay taxes . . . to take your argument a step further; I don't use public transport so I expect a subsidy on my imported car -after all, I pay taxes like any bogan driving a Holden . . and road tax etc...

I don't use the military so I'd like to have a housing allowance . . . etc . . .

Thugs and wankers, interested in continuing an us vs them attitude and feathering their own nests at the expense of the ordinary union member, expense of the schools and expense of the student.

We agree! Have yu ever heard the goons at the NTEU? An absolute joke - simply a criminal group who withhold results so they can get better pay.
Fuck me dead - Uni lecturers complaining about working too hard?

My wife is a Law Prof at Uni and her hours are laughable . . .

Even if I am now tutoring kids at my McDs as part of my business plan?

I still find it funny that people take the piss out of your 'job' when they would be envious to have one as good as yours . . .

[kingwilly]

I disagree with you road car analogy, because actually public transport benefits car drivers for simply taking volume off the roads. (I wish they'd do that in Jakarta).

RE: education, without the private system the public would collapse under weight of numbers.

Sure Finland has an excellent education system, but the country also has a population of around 300,000 people. So difficult to compare like for like.

Are some state schools good! Absolutely, MH is one, McKinnon High another. Brighton however is diabolical. Compulsory education and the lack of vocation schools is part of the problem.

Unions, don't get me started, proud to say I'm rabidly anti union. The only union I was ever forced to be involved with was the damned compulsory student unions at University.

[kingwilly]

But ok, I'll give you something.

In an ideal world, the government would fund all schools, all schools would be equal quality but different according to need (eg: Vocational, Academic, Sports etc) and there would be no teacher union oxygen theives.

But it's not an ideal world, and therefore we need private schools and said schools are entitled to some funding.

Please bear in mind the the funding private schools receive is less than government schools.

[panama hat]

I disagree with you road car analogy, because actually public transport benefits car drivers for simply taking volume off the roads

There are more aspects to it than simply clearing the roads - and Sydney has massive jams, so the analogy doesn't hold true anyway

RE: education, without the private system the public would collapse under weight of numbers.

Nonsense - most countries in the world run just fin without private schools - especially private schools leeching off the public purse

Sure Finland has an excellent education system, but the country also has a population of around 300,000 people. So difficult to compare like for like.

No-on mentioned Finland . . . and it has 6 million inhabitants . . .

The only union I was ever forced to be involved with was the damned compulsory student unions at University.

Screw that . . . me too. Oh and the union when I was working part time at Grace Bros in Bondi Junction. Ah, the heady days
Oddly enough, as I was working for the BWIU - part time during my Industrial Law course I didn't have to join them

But it's not an ideal world, and therefore we need private schools and said schools are entitled to some funding.

And that is the crux - it works elsewhere without private schools, it should in Oz - - isn't it about time we copied some of the good things from others instead of just the bad ans stupid?

Please bear in mind the the funding private schools receive is less than government schools.

Well, wouldn't it be a laugh if that were not the case?
We had a perfectly good public school just a few minutes up the road from us, Vaucluse High, but my parents chose to send em to a private school . . . their choice. They should pay, not some Schmuck in St Mary's on 28k

[kingwilly]

No-on mentioned Finland

I just did, because it always comes up as having an excellent education system. All the teachers are well paid, nearly all the teachers have a PhD, no exams, no pressure, like a Montessori heaven.

Originally Posted by kingwilly
Sure Finland has an excellent education system, but the country also has a population of around 300,000 people. So difficult to compare like for like.
No-on mentioned Finland . . . and it has 6 million inhabitants . . .

Whoops, meant to type school population.

I just checked it, tis just under 600,000

[panama hat]

Ah, private schools are also considered charities . . .

Private schools a burden on ratepayers, report says

Many schools were expanding their holdings of private lands often for non-educational use

The executive director of the Association of Independent Schools of NSW, Geoff Newcombe, said the rate exemption recognised the status of independent schools as charities. ''If that changed, it would impact on parents through significantly increased school fees,'' he said.


Read more: Private schools a burden on ratepayers, report says

[crepitas]

maybe a simplistic view but if private schools did not exist and partly funded by the tax payer...then would not the gov have to build more schools and fully fund them.
Another issue would be the lowest common denominator of the standard of education?
Met a guy in Phuket who went to the same Grammar school as myself in north London...told me that when he had attended it was not a grammar school. ( lot younger than me)


Just caught up via FB with an old school mate..tells me it is now back as a grammar school ..he thinks because of declined standards and results from melting pot education.?

[kingwilly]

^^ why would they not be a charity? There are not profit making enterprises.(Unlike many schools in Asia).

^ That's exactly right, without funding many of those private schools would not exist, and thus the government would have to double the number of schools and thus increase the budget beyond what they pay now in partial funding.

[Ronin]

( though why you call private schools 'public' I don't know )

Means anybody can go there (as long as their bank balance is big enough).