The politics behind Thailand's floods

**Bettyboo** · 15-11-2011, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Thaihome

I did[n't] ever support the coup as a solution

Originally Posted by Thaihome

But the Army couldn’t wait and as they were very worried about violence from both sides that looked to be inevitable

Apart from the clear contradiction in your two sentences, above... ( you may want to look at the work of probably the world's leading political discourse analyst, Teun A. van Dijk [he is in Bangkok in December, come along], he calls your type of sentence manipulation "disclaimer and mitigation' strategies which are very common strategies for ideological manipulation and polarized viewpoints; Society and Discourse: how social contexts influence text and talk, 2009, pp201-211).

What you fail to explain, as always, is context. The violence was coming from the PAD, a group aligned with the army/dems and bluebloods; leading voices of violence included PAD member Kasit who was rewarded by a ministerial position; bombs were placed around Bkk whoch most observers accept were planted by the army to forward instability and social fear; PAD were funded by, oh we can't say... although we all know.

Let's be very clear - you are deliberately misinforming, manipulating and lying. You know very well that the army/bluebloods/PAD/dems were working in association to bring down a democratically elected governent - the violence came from this group.

Your pretense of violence, that, I quote your words here "But the Army couldn’t wait and as they were very worried about violence from both sides that looked to be inevitable" is utter bs and lies. The violence was deliberately started by the coup group, so that they could come in as 'saviours' - the reality is, the truth is, that the violence was by design of the coup group.

This is clear and known.

You know this, but due to your political ideologies, you choose to lie - which is the reason I hold you in such utter disdain.

You are a shameless liar and propagandermonger.

Go back to ASTV...

**Scaramanga** · 15-11-2011, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Thaihome

In no way I did ever support the coup as a solution to the chaos of the summer of 2006. I agree with SD that the Army should have let the election that would have eventually happened take place. There is little doubt that the TRT would have won it, but there is ample evidence that the TRT was falling apart from within (the fact that there was an election some 3 years early is a telling one).

But the Army couldn’t wait and as they were very worried about violence from both sides that looked to be inevitable, they pulled the trigger so to speak.

So Andrew, was the path that Thaksin was leading Thailand going to better, was it going to lead to the full participatory democracy, with equal rights, both political and economic for all?

Or was he leading it to a UNMO style single party system the exploited the socio-economic differences in order to stay in power such as is seen in Malaysia?

So, do you think Thaksin was good thing for the political development of Thailand? Do you find it all astonishing that “democracy movement” has him as its idol?

This is a power struggle between elites and which side Thai people have chosen is by and large based on generations of patron-client relationships. The fact that the western liberals, such as yourself, have taken the side of Thaksin and his provincial strongmen is probably the subject of an ongoing joke for them.

The day you write an insightful investigative op-ed piece discussing the real issues at stake will be the day I begin to have the slightest respect for you. Otherwise, you will continue to be nothing more than a disingenuous hack writing nothing more than half truths and demagoguery.
TH

F'ing hell TH you not supporting a coup?

You are more yellow than Chamlong Srimuang underpants after on over spiced kaeng kari or is that garee geng

**Bettyboo** · 15-11-2011, 06:59 PM

^ he did support the coup - he clearly said so:

Originally Posted by Scaramanga

But the Army couldn’t wait and as they were very worried about violence from both sides that looked to be inevitable

He justifies it with this line. He has been writing this shite for years, usually starting and ending all posts: "but, Thaksin..." He is an extreme PADite. End of.

**SteveCM** · 15-11-2011, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

End of.

BB, please don't start echoing that monstrous approach.

**StrontiumDog** · 15-11-2011, 07:09 PM

^ Oh, there you go again Steve....

Foaming at the mouth...

**sabang** · 15-11-2011, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Thaihome

But the Army couldn’t wait and as they were very worried about violence from both sides that looked to be inevitable, they pulled the trigger so to speak.

In a democracy, the Army reports to the legally appointed government of the day. The hardcore PAD minority causing destructive civil insurrection, such as ransacking and occupying the national seat of government and occupying Thailand's main international airport, would have been quite sternly dealt with in an accountable democracy. The Coup happened a few weeks before a national election was due to be held anyway, which rather speaks for itself.

Originally Posted by Thaihome

So Andrew, was the path that Thaksin was leading Thailand going to better, was it going to lead to the full participatory democracy, with equal rights, both political and economic for all?

Thaksin has always struck me as an almost comical 'champion of democracy', but there is little question he got the average Thai involved in politics and his own political choices more than ever before. That's good- and is also something the Amart absolutely loathes.

Originally Posted by Thaihome

Or was he leading it to a UNMO style single party system the exploited the socio-economic differences in order to stay in power such as is seen in Malaysia?

What an outrageous comparison. PT is not, and never has been, set up along ethnic or religious lines- unlike the united national Malay organisation. It is a national political party, considerably more so than the Democrats actually.

Originally Posted by Thaihome

So, do you think Thaksin was good thing for the political development of Thailand?

On balance, yes. But once again, a non sequitur- he was the peoples democratic choice, overwhelmingly. What a particular individual or group might think of him is not the bluddy issue- they have their vote too, and are free to exercise it. I thought Bush jnr was an abysmal President- but I would never have advocated overturning him via Putsch.

Originally Posted by Thaihome

Do you find it all astonishing that “democracy movement” has him as its idol?

I find it somewhat amusing tbh, although you have painted with a very broad brush. Many people who support democracy in Thailand absolutely do not have Thaksin as their idol. To be quite blunt, the legal and moral Issue of respecting people's Constitutional Right of Suffrage in Thailand need not involve Thaksin.

Originally Posted by Thaihome

The fact that the western liberals, such as yourself, have taken the side of Thaksin and his provincial strongmen is probably the subject of an ongoing joke for them.

Does it occur to you that many 'western liberals' have 'taken the side' of Thaksin because he is the peoples overwhelming democratic choice? I would also 'take the side' of Quasimodo if he were the peoples overwhelming democratic choice, and was illegally ousted from power by a distinct minority with the Military top brass on it's side. As always with you lot, you always monomaniacially bring everything back to Thaksin. Guilt conscience?

Originally Posted by Thaihome

The day you write an insightful investigative op-ed piece discussing the real issues at stake

He certainly blitzes your feeble efforts

. Andrew Spooner's work is doubly valuable because it helps redress the glaring and obscene bias of the Thai media sector.

**StrontiumDog** · 15-11-2011, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

^ he did support the coup - he clearly said so:

Originally Posted by Scaramanga

But the Army couldn’t wait and as they were very worried about violence from both sides that looked to be inevitable

He justifies it with this line. He has been writing this shite for years, usually starting and ending all posts: "but, Thaksin..." He is an extreme PADite. End of.

So, someone says they didn't support the coup....but then you employ your mystical voodoo powers to decide that in fact they do....(mis)interpreting TH's words so that it agrees with your worldview.

Wow, way to go BB. That's some talent you have there mate.

**Moonraker** · 15-11-2011, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

bombs were placed around Bkk whoch most observers accept were planted by the army to forward instability and social fear; PAD were funded by, oh we can't say... although we all know.

They do?

**StrontiumDog** · 15-11-2011, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by Thaihome

But the Army couldn’t wait and as they were very worried about violence from both sides that looked to be inevitable, they pulled the trigger so to speak.

In a democracy, the Army reports to the legally appointed government of the day.

Instant fail there Sabang.

This isn't a democracy in the western sense/understanding of the word.

Thanks for playing

Edit...

followed closely by a second fail...

Originally Posted by sabang

The hardcore PAD minority causing destructive civil insurrection, such as ransacking and occupying the national seat of government and occupying Thailand's main international airport, would have seen them quite sternly dealt with in an accountable democracy.

Your point would be sound, if we were talking about a functional democracy based upon some 'western model' of such things....

But we aren't.

We are talking about Thailand.

**Scaramanga** · 15-11-2011, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

^ he did support the coup - he clearly said so:

Originally Posted by Scaramanga

But the Army couldn’t wait and as they were very worried about violence from both sides that looked to be inevitable

He justifies it with this line. He has been writing this shite for years, usually starting and ending all posts: "but, Thaksin..." He is an extreme PADite. End of.

Oh I know Bettyboo.

TH is lies and twists about what he says almost more than the champion of the annual competition for telling lies, held in Cumbria, England.

Some say his genitals hang upside down. Others think he is just a PADite.

Who knows his posts are almost an irrelevance to the normal people here

**StrontiumDog** · 15-11-2011, 07:19 PM

Some folks here need to read this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic...005–2006)

**Moonraker** · 15-11-2011, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Some folks here need to read this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic...and_(2005–2006)

Evil PADite amart evil media manipulation evil.

**Scaramanga** · 15-11-2011, 07:32 PM

SD

the political crisis really happened after October 2006 but then you know that.

Nice try at diverting the issues and that why I find you, and think of you as an obsessed lonely foolish poster

**Scaramanga** · 15-11-2011, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Originally Posted by Scaramanga
But the Army couldn’t wait and as they were very worried about violence from both sides that looked to be inevitable

Did I say this???????

Where and when?

**Andrew Spooner** · 15-11-2011, 07:38 PM

Thai Home

Sigh.

I already referred to the fact that you can find my critique of Thaksin in print in bookshops.

In my view Thaksin needed to be opposed with more democracy not less.

As for single party rule - well, Thailand hasn't even reached that level of political maturity yet. It is still stuck in some semi-feudal, semi-militaristic state, where a tiny group of generals and elites get to make all the real power decisions without ever having to make any attempt to even consider the wishes of their own people. Thaksin attempted to break up that monopoly on power by using the popular vote.

I also think if Thaksin was purely about greed and power he would have cut a deal with the military/amaart years ago. I believe Thaksin genuinely thought that his electoral mandate would keep him safe and so that's why he basically refused, quite rightly, to kowtow to unelected and undemocratic forces.

Don't mistake this analysis for support of Thaksin. If you placed him in a UK context and it was a choice between Thaksin, Lib Dem, Tory or Labour, Thaksin would get my vote last (and I'm a Labour member).

But, then again, I don't really consider the Democrats a genuine political party. They have no real platform, their leadership are mostly ridiculous caricatures of dim posh boys, they make absurd mistakes like going on a luxury holiday in the middle of a national crisis, they're out of touch, aloof, arrogant and stupid. That's why Thais won't vote for them and vote for Thaksin.

As for an in-depth investigative piece - jeez, I wish there were the funds to do that. Most papers and media just can't afford it any more. But, in regards to this government, they've only been in place for 3months. Bit hard to judge their record in such a short period.

One thing some elements are pushing for is to make Thailand signatories to the International Criminal Court and to place the military directly under civilian control.

Both of these things would be huge strides for Thailand's democracy and would help hold everyone to account regardless of political party.

You can tell me what you don't like but what do you suggest as ways forward?

Simply saying "evil Thaksin" over and over and over and over again offers nobody anything.

**Andrew Spooner** · 15-11-2011, 08:37 PM

Right, thought I'd post on here to see what kind of discussion develops but already can see it immediately turning to abusive trolling but anti-Thaksin expats.

At this point I'll bow out for a while.

Everyone is free to post comment on my FB page - though personal abuse and trolling gets you a guaranteed delete.

Asia Provocateur/Andrew Spooner | Facebook

**sabang** · 15-11-2011, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Andrew Spooner

abusive trolling but anti-Thaksin expats

I suppose they are taking a cue from Bangkok's notoriously abusive anti-Thaksin/ pro yellow social media. Sore losers, nothing less. You do not see such vituperation and spite from winners. Still, the squirming and mental gymnastics they go through in an attempt to justify what is unjustifiable, or avoid the issue entirely, is highly amusing.

**LooseBowels** · 16-11-2011, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by Scaramanga

Bangkok Governor Sukhumbhand is very very upset by a 10pm letter.

From the blog world of Andrew Spooner

Thailand’s ongoing floods has been one of the region’s high-profile news stories over the last weeks. One of the strongest messages resonating throughout the international media is the claim that Thailand’s inexperienced and recently elected Prime Minister, Yingluck Shinawatra, has not been up to the task.

What has not gained so much attention in the international coverage is the behaviour of the Democrat Party’s Bangkok Governor, Sukhumbhand Paribatra. It began back on October 31st when the Governor was asked to open a water gate at Klong Sam Wa after receiving a request from the Yingluck government.

Sukhumbhand is quoted on Nation editor, Suthichai Yoon’s blog as saying (translated from Thai)

If [she] wants the Klong Sam Wa water gate to be opened 1 metre more, [ she has to] put the order in writing as well. It doesn’t matter how much pressure I receive, I do not care, I must only follow the clear written order.

So, following Sukhumbhand’s own request, on the 13th November Pol.Gen.Pracha Promnok, Minister of Justice and Director of Flood relief command operation sent an order in writing to Sukhumband. The letter was delivered to the Bangkok Governor at about 10pm and asked him to prevent the destruction of an essential flood wall at Don Muang to the north of Bangkok city centre.

The response to this request was extraordinary.

That night Sukhambhand appeared on TV (see from 1min 23secs), his voice breaking with emotion. He complained about losing sleep and about receiving the letter at such an “uncivilised hour”. He also said that the government should have spoken to him first in an “unofficial” capacity.

One could understand if he’d been awoken at night and made a grumpy comment but to host a press conference and then to spend a considerable amount of time just whinging about doing his job seems, when compared to the suffering others are going through, not only insensitive but also absurd. Furthermore Sukhumbhand’s contradictory requests make him appear obstructive and uncooperative. How behaving in such a manner helps the people of Bangkok has yet to be explained.

Next year Sukhumbhand faces re-election. The Democrat Party have already proved they are unelectable nationally – maybe they are trying to prove it in Bangkok as well?

Sack the bsastard on the spot and charge and convict the nutter with terrorism

**LooseBowels** · 16-11-2011, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Bangkok Post : NACC asked to investigate Abhisit

NACC asked to investigate Abhisit

Published: 15/11/2011 at 01:29 PM
Online news:

Former senator Ruangkrai Leekitwattana has filed a petition with the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC) asking it to investigate former prime minister Abhisit Vejjajiva for alleged negligence and mismanagement of water resources at the Bhumibol and Sirikit dams, causing severe flooding and damage to the country's economy.

Mr Ruangkrai said that in filing the petition, he had exercised the right of a Thai citizen as allowed under Section 62 of the constitution.

Attached to the former former senator's petition were a number of documents including copies of Mr Abhisit's speeches made to parliament, copies of the texts of Mr Abhisit's speeches made on the radio programme "Confidence in Thailand with PM Abhisit", graphs showing the statistics of the quantities of water at the two dams as recorded by the Royal Irrigation Department, and Mr Abhisit's report on Thai economic and social conditions dated Aug 4, 2011.

He alleged the documents contained information showing that Mr Abhisit, as prime minister, had mishandled the nation's water resources, causing flooding and severe damage to the country in violation of Section 157 of the constitution.

Here we go

This is the stuff

The truth is out there

**Moonraker** · 16-11-2011, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by LooseBowels

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Bangkok Post : NACC asked to investigate Abhisit

NACC asked to investigate Abhisit

Published: 15/11/2011 at 01:29 PM
Online news:

Former senator Ruangkrai Leekitwattana has filed a petition with the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC) asking it to investigate former prime minister Abhisit Vejjajiva for alleged negligence and mismanagement of water resources at the Bhumibol and Sirikit dams, causing severe flooding and damage to the country's economy.

Mr Ruangkrai said that in filing the petition, he had exercised the right of a Thai citizen as allowed under Section 62 of the constitution.

Attached to the former former senator's petition were a number of documents including copies of Mr Abhisit's speeches made to parliament, copies of the texts of Mr Abhisit's speeches made on the radio programme "Confidence in Thailand with PM Abhisit", graphs showing the statistics of the quantities of water at the two dams as recorded by the Royal Irrigation Department, and Mr Abhisit's report on Thai economic and social conditions dated Aug 4, 2011.

He alleged the documents contained information showing that Mr Abhisit, as prime minister, had mishandled the nation's water resources, causing flooding and severe damage to the country in violation of Section 157 of the constitution.

Here we go

This is the stuff

The truth is out there

It's OK folks.

Just in-case you were looking for the truth, apparently we can find it in the Bangkok post.

They (the Bangkok post) were previously evil PADite evil amart evil scum yellow liars (have I missed anything), but we can trust them now.

**LooseBowels** · 16-11-2011, 04:22 AM

^ So do you believe em

**Moonraker** · 16-11-2011, 04:29 AM

Abhisit fucked up?

Maybe, perhaps a full and independent investigation is needed and if found guilty of whatever he should pay the price, innit.

It's just good to know that we can now have faith in what the Bangkok Post reports, I wonder what tomorrow's edition has in store.

**DroversDog** · 16-11-2011, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Abhisit fucked up?

Maybe, perhaps a full and independent investigation is needed and if found guilty of whatever he should pay the price, innit.

It's just good to know that we can now have faith in what the Bangkok Post reports, I wonder what tomorrow's edition has in store.

The Hague is waiting for the Englishman from Newcastle.

---
Read this before discussing anything with me

**LooseBowels** · 16-11-2011, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by Moonraker

It's just good to know that we can now have faith in what the Bangkok Post reports, I wonder what tomorrow's edition has in store

So then, whatever it is will you believe it?

**Calgary** · 16-11-2011, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Moonraker's posting personae fits perfectly with his Avatar photo.

A perfect caricature of how I imagine him.

You imagine me to be like Paolo Di Canio.

I'll take that, I can think of worse things.

You mean like this guy? (Gerald Sandusky) The images are similar.

[/quote]

LOL, and very timely!

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