Thread: Thai and Cambodian troops clash

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

a "done deal,"

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

more work was needed to implement the deal.

speaking English would be a wonderful thing .

^
Well, at least he didn't say "slam dunk"......

I liked

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

"What remains now is how to operationalise the assignment of the Indonesian observer teams on the ground," Natalegawa said.

Has the feeling of: "Yes, we're going to put a man on the moon - and return him safely to earth etc..... What remains now is how to operationalise that" - but JFK had better writers.

Let's hope it doesn't take most of a decade to sort out this particular "how".

Bangkok Post : No border talks at Asean

• Published: 6/05/2011 at 04:41 PM
• Online news: Local News

JAKARTA - Initial hopes of bilateral talks between Thailand and Cambodia and of trilateral talks with Indonesia as the third party during the Asean Summit have been dashed, with the major obstacle being the issue of troop withdrawal.

However, the Asean chairman, Indonesian Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa, on Friday reaffirmed that discussions on the Thai-Cambodian border conflict would continue during the Asean Summit in Jakarta this weekend.

Foreign Ministers Kasit Piromya (right) greets his Cambodia counterpart Hor Namhong (left) shortly after a press conference by Indonesian Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa (centre) on the Informal ASEAN Ministrial Meeting at Indonesian Foreign Ministry office in Jakarta on Feb 22, 2011. (Photo by EPA)

Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya did not spkead a single word after his 45 minute meeting with his Indonesian counterpart, but Mr Natalegawa said there was one development came out his separate talks with the Thai and Cambodian sides here.

Discussions of the terms of reference (TOR) for deployment of the Indonesian observer team could be considered concluded, he said.

"The TOR is already a done deal as the two sides reaffirmed their agreement, but it remains how to operationalise the assignment on the ground of Indonesian observers. We're looking for the creation of conducive conditions," said the Asean chairman.

He noted that as the country sending the observers, he believed it was essential to create conducive conditions and he would try to redefine what each country would provide.

The Indonesian minister said both Thailand and Cambodia had recognised that the political process and diplomatic negotiations must be continued even though Cambodia had taken the dispute back to the International Court of Justice (ICJ).

While acknowledging troop withdrawals as a major stumbling point, he emphasised that the risks inherent in any delay, the very real exchanges of gunfire and artillery bombardment in border areas, continued.

"Delay is not neutral, delay is not without impact. There is greater risk of intentional or inadvertent conflicts," said Mr Natalegawa.

He noted that, modestly but importantly significant, was the fact that observers from the third party could be deployed.

"That's why I'm hesitant to say whether withdrawal or no withdrawal (a conducive condition), but we view that our observers will be well received. In fact, redeployment or withdrawal of troops can be further discussed at the General Border Committee.

"It does not have to be resolved in one go, as long as there is a political will," he said.

Asked if he was disheartened by the apparent impasse, he said he personally he was fine, as he has infinite patience, but as a country and a host of Asean he wanted to see some movement.

"We need some progress as non-development and status quo means shelling and artillery fire is still going on while we're talking about community building — that is not quite right," he said.

Thai Foreign Ministry spokesman Thani Thongpakdi said Mr Kasit had told the Asean chairman that Phnom Penh had a well-planned strategy, to begin its invasion and then forward the issue to the ICJ.

Mr Thani confirmed that Thailand had not sent a letter of acknowldgement for the positioning of the Indonesian observer team to Jakarta. Thailand needed first to be confident that Cambodian troops would withdraw from the disputed area around Preah Vihear temple.

The Cambodian military presence inside the perimeter of the cultural hertitage site was in violation of the Hague Convention of 1972, the Thai spokesman said.

He said details of the Indonesian observer team's deployment had already been agreed upon, including the area coverage and timeline.

Cambodia would allow 15 Indonesians at three sites (Ta Sem, Chak Chreng and Pram Makara) while Thailand allow the same number at four sites in Si Sa Ket’s Kantharalak district, at Ban Phumsrol. None of the sites were in the immediate vicinity of the disputed 4.6 square kilometre area around the ancient Hindu temple.

Cambodian Foreign Minister Hor Nam Hong earlier today said his country would not withdraw its troops from its "own territory".

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva gives a press interview at Government House on May 6, 2011.

Mr Hor Nam Hong said the problem with the border conflict clearly remained the willingness of Thailand to agree with the deployment of Indonesian observers under the TOR.

"Cambodia has already sent a letter of acceptance to Indonesia's proposed TOR on May 2, and we hope will Thailand do likewise," said the Cambodian minister.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said in Bangkok before leaving for Jakarta that he had no plans to meet Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen during the Asean Summit to discuss the border dispute.

Mr Abhisit yesterday said Cambodian troops and villagers must vacate the 4.6-square-kilometre disputed border area around Preah Vihear temple before Indonesia observers can be deployed.


Writer: Achara Ashayagachat
Position: Reporter

Cambodian troops should leave temple area, says Thai FM | The Jakarta Post

Cambodian troops should leave temple area, says Thai FM

Adianto P. Simamora, The Jakarta Post, Jakarta | Sat, 05/07/2011 4:08 PM | National

Thailand Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya asserted that the presence of an Indonesian observation team could only be realized after Cambodia withdrew its troops from the disputed temple area.

“What we are asking is simple; all [Cambodian] soldiers should leave the [temple] area,” he told reporters on the sidelines of the ASEAN summit on Saturday.

He said that Thailand would still wait on bilateral meetings between the defense ministers of the two countries before replying to the letter from Indonesia concerning the “terms of reference” for the Indonesian observation team.

He said that Thailand had proposed the meeting of the two country’s defense ministers to settle the bilateral confrontation that has escalated over the last three months.

“Cambodia’s side refuses to come to the negotiation meeting. The problem is not us,” he said.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

The skirmishes between Thailand and Cambodia -- ostensibly over ownership of some crumbling ancient temples on the border but also driven by internal political dynamics in both countries -- have killed 18 people in the last couple of weeks.

ouch

Thai, Cambodian PMs agree to meet at ASEAN summit | The Jakarta Post

Thai, Cambodian PMs agree to meet at ASEAN summit

The Jakarta Post, Jakarta | Sat, 05/07/2011 5:06 PM | World

Officials say the prime ministers of Thailand and Cambodia have agreed to meet with Indonesia's president to try to halt deadly clashes along their disputed border.

The planned three-way meeting Sunday marks a step forward in resolving the recurring conflict. Thailand has previously rejected outside mediation, saying the matter must be settled between it and Cambodia.

The issue has threatened to dominate a summit of Southeast Asian leaders in Jakarta this weekend.

Indonesia's State Secretary Sudi Silalahi says President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono will host the meeting with prime ministers Hun Sen of Cambodia and Abhisit Vejjajiva of Thailand.

The border clashes have killed more than a dozen in recent weeks and forced nearly 100,000 villagers to flee.

Hun Sen blasts Thailand at Asean summit: Officials

May 7, 2011

Hun Sen blasts Thailand at Asean summit: Officials


Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen launched an 'aggressive' attack on Thailand over a border dispute during the first session of a summit of South-east Asian leaders on Saturday, a senior official said. -- PHOTO: AP

JAKARTA - CAMBODIAN Prime Minister Hun Sen launched an 'aggressive' attack on Thailand over a border dispute during the first session of a summit of South-east Asian leaders on Saturday, a senior official said.

Senior officials said Association of South-east Asian Nations (Asean) leaders were taken aback at the unscheduled salvo across the meeting table at the opening of the two-day summit in Jakarta.

The trade and economy-focused summit was at risk of being hijacked by tensions over the bloody military conflict which has killed 85 people and temporarily displaced 85,000 in months of clashes.

An Asian foreign minister, who did not want to be named, said Hun Sen was 'quite aggressive' when he raised the issue during the closed-door session. Thai government spokesman Mr Panitan Wattanayagorn confirmed that Hun Sen raised the dispute, which was not on the formal agenda, to the 'surprise' of other leaders.

Mr Panitan said Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva was 'disappointed' and rebutted Hun Sen's allegations that Thai troops were attacking Cambodian territory. 'He said he was very disappointed to hear Cambodia accusing Thailand of using force against Cambodia. In fact we have not. In fact we have been helping Cambodia through difficult times,' the spokesman said.

'Despite our good intentions, yes, he (Abhisit) was disappointed that Prime Minister Hun Sen misunderstood our intention.' The dispute centres on a small area around an 11th-century Khmer temple which belongs to Cambodia under a 1962 World Court ruling. -- AFP

'He said he was very disappointed to hear Cambodia accusing Thailand of using force against Cambodia. In fact we have not. In fact we have been helping Cambodia through difficult times,' the spokesman said.

Alai waa!

Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Kingdom of Thailand

Intervention of H.E. Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva of the Kingdom of Thailand responding on the Thailand-Cambodia Issue at the Plenary Session of the 18th ASEAN Summit, 7th May 2011, Jakarta

May 7, 2011

Your Majesty,
Mr. Chairman,

Allow me to respond to the statement made by Prime Minister Hun Sen.

Thailand recognizes full well that any conflict between ASEAN Member States can undermine ASEAN’s community-building efforts.

I can therefore categorically state that Thailand has no intention whatsover to engage in any conflict with neighbours and countries in the region.

The border disputes between Thailand and Cambodia, like many other disputes, are long-standing. In this case, the borders have been delimited by various Treaties such as the Siamese-French Convention of 1904 and the Siamese-French Treaty of 1907. There have also been subsequent developments which have raised disagreements.

As mentioned by Prime Minister Hun Sen, there were maps that were referred to and there was a ruling by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in 1962. The ICJ, however, made it clear that the mentioned map was not the work of the Siamese-French Mixed Commission of Delimitation. The ICJ delivered a judgment in 1962 and although Thailand did not agree with it, we complied with the judgment since 1962. Military and police personnel were withdrawn from the Temple and its vicinity since 1962. This was undertaken in a transparent manner, recognized by the international community and Cambodia. And there have been no problems for decades.

Both sides agreed on the 2000 Memorandum of Understanding between Thailand and Cambodia on the Survey and Demarcation of Land Boundary (2000 MOU) which again was done in good faith. The 2000 MOU stated that no actions should be undertaken to affect the demarcation work, and this included movement of troops and people into disputed areas. The problem emerged when Cambodia violated the 2000 MOU by sending troops and people into the area.

I therefore wish to set the record straight:

Thailand has no intention whatsoever to have conflicts.

I am therefore disappointed that Prime Minister Hun Sen has stated otherwise regarding Thailand’s intentions.

Thailand has contributed to Cambodia’s nation-building process with utmost sincerity and with the wish to see it advance and achieve reconciliation. Even today, we continue to provide development cooperation assistance to Cambodia because we believe that Cambodia’s prosperity is linked with our prosperity. Even in times of dispute, we have continued to provide assistance, trade and cooperate economically.

Thailand has de-coupled the border dispute from other issues.

But we cannot help but notice that there is a clear attempt by Cambodia to internationalize the issue.

It is simply not true that the bilateral process is not working.

I am frustrated too, as may be Prime Minister Hun Sen, of the internal legal requirements but the fact is that the Thai-Cambodian Joint Commission on Demarcation for Land Boundary (JBC) continues to function. Legal issues have been resolved. Thailand’s Consitutional Court has ruled on the Agreed Minutes of previous meetings of the JBC that they need not go to the Thai Parliament.

So we are ready to resume the JBC.

Before the clashes in February this year, my Foreign Minister was in Cambodia. Immediately after the first shot was fired, Cambodia went to the United Nations Security Council. However, bilateral mechanisms are still working. In April 2011, the JBC met in Bogor. I hope my ASEAN colleagues recognize that the doors for bilateral meetings remain open. Invitations have been issued to Cambodia regarding meetings of the JBC, the Regional Border Committee (RBC) and the General Border Committee (GBC). We are waiting for Cambodia to accept the invitations.

I accept that the issue could affect the credibility of ASEAN. We must therefore make sure that any problem should be solved, locally, bilaterally and if needed with the facilitation of the region.

Regarding the Terms of Reference (TOR) on the Indonesian Observers Team (IOT), the Thai Cabinet has approved the text of TOR. But we have concerns. If observers are to be sent, there must be good faith shown by Cambodia to respect the 2000 MOU. This involves the withdrawal of troops and other people from these areas since the 2000 MOU states that there would be no movement of troops and people into these areas.

Furthermore, the presence of troops at the Temple is a violation of the 1954 Hague Convention on the Protection of Cultural Properties in the Event of Armed Conflict and the 1972 Convention concerning the Protection of the World Cultural and Natural Heritage as well as the guidelines of the World Heritage Committee. It is therefore a good idea for the GBC to discuss this before the IOT is sent.

On the recent border clashes in April – these took place more than 100 kilometers away from the Phra Viharn Temple. Therefore, the area where the IOT is to be sent to is nowhere near the latest clashes. Subsequently and immediately, Cambodia sent a letter to the ICJ.

I apologize for taking time to explain this issue. This matter can be resolved bilaterally. We welcome ASEAN’s facilitating role and appreciate Indonesia’s facilitation in this regard. There are some technical issues to be addressed. If there is good faith, then our house can be set in order.

I welcome the offer of our host to hold a meeting with Cambodia and Thailand – I have no problems discussing this issue with Prime Minister Hun Sen. This will allow for a good understanding of what really happened in the past few months.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

“What we are asking is simple; all [Cambodian] soldiers should leave the [temple] area,”

Phreah Vihear is in Cambodia- Thailand has no right to demand anything there.
I presume then he is referring to the 4.6 sqkm of disputed land 'near' the temple?

Lull in fighting at Thai-Cambodian disputed border; Heavy troop movements

Lull in fighting at Thai-Cambodian disputed border; Heavy troop movements

วันเสาร์ ที่ 07 พ.ค. 2554


SURIN, May 7 -- Clashes between Thai and Cambodian troops at the disputed border have stopped for the time being but heavy movements are seen on both sides over fears that a new round of fighting might erupt again if negotiations in Indonesia fail to make any headway.

No border clashes near Ta Kwai and Ta Muen Thom temples at Thai-Cambodian border in Surin province took place Saturday but Thai villagers were warned not to tend to their rubber plantations near the border as a new round of fighting could erupt again.

Cambodian soldiers have made a new round of movement while Thai soldiers built more bunkers out of sandbags near Ta Muen Thom temple amid reports that fresh tensions could break out if no progress is made during negotiations between Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and his Cambodian counterpart Hun Sen while they attend a two-day Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) Summit which starts Saturday in Jakarta.

Soldiers of the two countries have fought near the two temples since April 22, forcing the Thai government to shut down border checkpoints.

Several border checkpoints have since been reopened but cross-border trade is still sluggish as many traders still do not know that they are now open, while few tourists and gamblers have been seen in the vicinity. Some traders said they were not ready to sell their wares as usual because the market has been opened only a few days and the overall situation is still gloomy.

A checkpoint set up by Suranari Task Force near the Preah Vihear ancient temple remains in force and people are restricted from passing through. (MCOT online news)

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Intervention of H.E. Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva of the Kingdom of Thailand responding on the Thailand-Cambodia Issue at the Plenary Session of the 18th ASEAN Summit, 7th May 2011, Jakarta

May 7, 2011

Your Majesty,
Mr. Chairman,

Indonesia is a Republic. To whom is he speaking?

Tension high on Surin border

Tension high on Surin border

By The Nation on Sunday
Published on May 8, 2011

A new round of fighting was narrowly avoided at the Thai-Cambodian border as tension continued among soldiers on both sides, a military source said yesterday.

Thai soldiers were repairing wooden fences at the Ta Muen Thom ancient temple on Friday afternoon when a group of Cambodian soldiers confronted them and told them to stop, according to the source. During tense talks, the Cambodian soldiers were ordered to open fire. However, a senior Thai soldier grabbed a senior Cambodian soldier and used him as a shield to prevent the Cambodians from shooting. The Thais returned to safety before freeing the Cambodian.

Later, their supervisors ordered the Thai soldiers to remove the fences in order to reduce tension and prevent any further clash.

Just a short distance from Ta Muen Thom, Cambodian soldiers were building new bunkers, the source said.

<snip>

No border clashes took place near Ta Kwai and Ta Muen Thom temples in Surin yesterday but Thai villagers were warned not to tend to rubber plantations near the border as a new round of fighting could erupt again.

Cambodian soldiers were on the move while Thai troops built bunkers out of sandbags near Ta Muen Thom temple amid reports fresh tension could arise if no progress was made in talks in Jakarta.

Soldiers on both sides have fought near the two temples since April 22.

Does anyone actually know the basis of the border dispute at or around these ruined temples I had never heard of? They're quite a long way from Vihear, and it's disputed little plot of nearby land.

Originally Posted by sabang

Does anyone actually know the basis of the border dispute at or around these ruined temples I had never heard of? They're quite a long way from Vihear, and it's disputed little plot of nearby land.

Well PAD started it. It is all domestic politics. Mostly in Thailand, and partly in Cambodia too. When can I go without war to Sihanoukville clear uncluttered beaches again?

^ They're conveniently keeping the shite up in Isaan- so you've got no problem crossing in Trat, or the Bangkokians doing their weekend gambling/ money laundering run to Poi Pet. Not one Isaanite that I know of gives a toss about this whole childish game either, beyond the fact peoples livelihood is being affected. In the actual border areas, many of them have family on the other side- and they probably think the same thing.

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Indonesia is a Republic. To whom is he speaking?

Haven't seen list of all attendees - but maybe Sultan of Brunei? Cambodian King - was/isn't he technically joint PM?

But the crux seems hard to be solved, at least from the Cambodian side after its Foreign Minister Hor Namhong was quoted by Reuters news agency as saying, "We can never withdraw our troops from our own territory. That should be very clear."
(MCOT online news)

Thai PM briefs ASEAN Summit on Thai-Cambodian border disputes

JAKARTA, May 7 Kyodo - Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen stated Saturday that Thailand's demand for withdrawal of Cambodian troops from Cambodian territory on the disputed border between the two countries is ''irrational and unacceptable.'' He made the statement at a plenary session of the 18th leaders' summit of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations that began in Jakarta on Saturday morning.

''This condition is irrational and unacceptable. In fact, it is Thailand that must withdraw troops from the vicinity of the areas, according to the judgement of the International Court of Justice at The Hague dated 15 June, 1962,'' he said.

Hun Sen was rejecting a recent demand by Thailand that unarmed Indonesian cease-fire observers will be allowed along the disputed border only if Cambodia withdraws its own troops and civilians from what Cambodia sees as its own land.

Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva countered that Cambodia was violating a Memorandum of Understanding agreed in 2000 that troops and population based or living near the ancient Preah Vihear Temple on the border must be withdrawn.

Local News

“Thailand as a big country continues to have the ambition of prolonging the armed conflict in order to violate weaker neighbouring Asean members,” Hun Sen told the assembled leaders, according to a transcript provided to reporters.

“The invasion of the Thai troops of Cambodia’s territory resulted in a series of clashes and eventually a large-scale war from the 4th to the 7th of February, 2011.”

Gulf Times

TAN_Network TAN News Network

Thai-Cambodian bilateral meeting at sideline of ASEAN Summit begins; Abhisit proposes troop withdrawal and end to use of violence

Indonesia kicks off tripartite talk on Thai-Cambodia border row

8 May 2011

By Supalak Ganjanakhundee
The Nation
Jakarta



Indonesia's President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono called a tripartite meeting with Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen to discuss border conflict between the two Asean members.

The meeting produced no breakthrough to settle the border dispute between the two conflicting neighbor but would kept the Indonesia facilitated peace process to go on, said Thai government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn.

They assigned foreign ministers of the three countries to carry on the task in order to establish permanent cease-fire in the border area, he said.

Indonesia's Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa is working out to have another meeting with Thai Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya and Cambodian Foreign Minister Hor Namhong on the side line of the Asean meeting.

Thailand and Cambodia are at the loggerhead of border conflict for long time. A major military clash erupted in February at the Preah Vihear temple's vicinity and the skirmish expanded to other areas near Ta Mouan Thom and Ta Kwai in Surin province. The clash killed tens of soldiers and civilians as well as displaced thousands of people in border areas.

Bangkok Post : PM Abhisit meets Hun Sen

Breakingnews >

• Published: 8/05/2011 at 09:57 AM
• Online news: Local New

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva on Sunday morning met with his Cambodian counterpart Hun Sen in Jakarta for sideline bilateral talks on the border dispute, acting government spokesman Panitan Wattanayakorn said.

The sideline border talk was mediated by Indonesian president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, Mr Panitan said.

He said the unofficial discussion was aimed at peacefully ending the border conflict, encouraging Cambodia to return for talks and refraining from using force in settling the border dispute.

Mr Panitan said Mr Abhisit told Hun Sen that Thailand prefers bilateral talks on the border dispute and does not want the case to be brought to the international community.

Originally Posted by Bangkok Post

Mr Panitan said Mr Abhisit told Hun Sen that Thailand prefers bilateral talks on the border dispute and does not want the case to be brought to the international community.

and the other side of the coin ?

there IS one you know Khun Post