Thread: Exclusive: Probe reveals Thai troops' role in civilian deaths

trick question to sab: do you think the TRC report is incorrect and bias ?

Right- so an independent government enquiry should not ask the proprietor of the major affected complex about his publicly stated opinion, and reasons for holding those opinions. Of course. But we all know what is happening here anyway, why bother. It's all subsumed to a larger process, hardly a secret.

^ I think the TRC report is a polite whitewash, and designed to be such. You may as well blame Takkie for that too.

Originally Posted by sabang

so an independent government enquiry should not ask the proprietor of the major affected complex about his publicly stated opinion,

an opinion is not fact, I am sure it's an interesting opinion, but it remains one, no matter how justified that opinion came to be, it remains a simple interpretation not based on hard facts. If he was a direct witness, I am sure he could have testified for the TRC, but he wasn't.

Does that answer your question ?

No- my question is would an impartial commission ask the holder of this opinion, given his rather prominent position and involvement, to appear before it to explain himself. If it didn't, you see, people might just get the wrong impression.

Anyhow, quit wasting my time- we all know what is happening here. so blame takkie.

Originally Posted by sabang

If it didn't, you see, people might just get the wrong impression.

right, because a fact finding mission is about impression, not facts. Jesus Christ, even by your low standard, this is quite amusing coming from you.

Originally Posted by sabang

we all know what is happening here. so blame takkie.

right, because Khun T is innocent and a victim here, he didn't do anything wrong and was never behind that movement.

Tell me sab, how many sick buffalos have you bought in Issaan ? quite a few it seems,

You are an outright twit, but I guess that is hardly newsworthy. Of course a true independent fact finding commission would ask the boss of Central group to appear before it to explain his opinion and reasons.

Originally Posted by sabang

Right- so an independent government enquiry should not ask the proprietor of the major affected complex about his publicly stated opinion, and reasons for holding those opinions. Of course. But we all know what is happening here anyway, why bother. It's all subsumed to a larger process, hardly a secret.

^ I think the TRC report is a polite whitewash, and designed to be such. You may as well blame Takkie for that too.

I believe there would be no such creature as an independent goverment investigation, no?

Originally Posted by sabang

Of course a true independent fact finding commission would ask the boss of Central group to appear before it to explain his opinion and reasons.

wouldn't that be a double standard ? what about all the small owners of 7/11 ? again you are showing your intellectual dishonesty in that matter. An independent commission wouldn't care what some big boss has to say for his opinion, since it won't be based on facts.

Was he a direct witness ? no, so he can fuck off.

Originally Posted by sabang

You are an outright twit, but I guess that is hardly newsworthy.

coming from a recluse out of touch farang, I will take this as a compliment

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Was he a direct witness ?

Google is your friend.

Another interview with the dutch reporter



Dutch reporter believes he was shot by soldiers

Fri, 28/09/2012 - 12:05 | by prachatai On 26 Sept, Michel Maas, a reporter from the Netherlands, testified to the Department of Special Investigation as a witness to the crackdown on red-shirt protesters in May 2010.

On 19 May 2010, he was shot in the back while he was reporting news over the phone about the crackdown on Ratchadamri Rd near Lumphini Park. He believed that the bullet was fired from the direction where soldiers were deployed at Ratchadamri intersection and he did not see any ‘men in black’ or armed groups in the area.

Michel Maas at the crime scene on Ratchadamri Rd with DSI officials


He said that on that day he was standing on the red shirts’ side in front of the Bangkok Cable Company. He used his camera to zoom in the direction of Ratchadamri Rd near Chulalongkorn Hospital to look for ‘men in black’, and saw soldiers, heavily armed, firing toward the protesters, where he stood. He believed that the soldiers were aware that he was a reporter, as he was taller than everybody else and was a foreigner carrying a camera. He saw the protesters carrying only wooden sticks and one small Thai home-made handgun.

‘Then everyone, including me, ran away. When I reached the front of 185 Ratchadamri Condominium, I was shot in the back, but still kept running, until somebody saw me and took me on a motorcycle to hospital. In the case of Fabio Polenghi, the Italian journalist who was shot and killed, I do not know who shot him, because I did not see the incident but saw him when he was dead,’ Maas said.

The M16 bullet which was retrieved from Michel Maas’ body after an operation (photo by Michel Maas)

He is the only person injured during the April-May 2010 crackdown who has still kept the bullet as evidence. However, he keeps the bullet at his home in Jakarta, Indonesia, and will give it the investigators if necessary, he said.

He told reporters that he came to Thailand to provide his account of the events to the authorities to help find the culprits and he hoped that his testimony would be helpful to Fabio’s case as well.
Maas has been reporting for Volkskrant newspaper and NOS radio station in the Netherlands for over 10 years. He has covered news from battlefields including in Kosovo and Burma, but this was the first time he was injured while on duty, he said.

He told Prachatai that he never thought that he would be shot at that day, because he had expected the soldiers to give some kind of warning, such as loudspeaker announcements, firing rubber bullets or firing in the air, which is normal practice in other countries. And he was surprised that the Thai soldiers fired live ammunition.

Dutch reporter believes he was shot by soldiers | Prachatai English

I presume Michel Maas was interviewed by the TRC, right? Right?

^ it's quite clear that the majority of the killed were from the army, I think nobody is denying that, and even that number 90 something is suspicious, it's probably twice that

the real issue is not who killed the protesters, but why were they "MiB", militia type men and violent provocateurs within the red gathering for what was a peaceful "demonstration".

it seems they wanted a confrontation and they got it, and they used innocent demonstrators as human shields and as baits

the real guilty in all this are the red leaders, not the army, they should have been all shot

don't bring a knife in a gun fight,

Yes, but PT don't want them to appear before the Hague anymore than the Dem's and military do.

^ If they want to know what went on at Pattaya Asian, and what the army were doing there , and what the Blueshirts were doing there , and what the police were doing there....

I was there, right in amongst it for a week

You can't argue with that

DSI cannot identify 2010 'men in black' | Bangkok Post: news

DSI cannot identify 2010 'men in black'

• Published: 4/10/2012 at 01:51 AM
• Newspaper section: News

The Department of Special Investigation accepts there were "men in black" involved in the clash at Khok Wua intersection on April 10, 2010, but it has been unable to identify them, DSI deputy chief Pol Col Prawes Mulpramuk says.

Speaking before the House committee on police affairs yesterday, Pol Col Prawes said DSI files have a photo of a man wearing black with an AK-47 rifle on Tanao Road on the day but it could not prove he was a red-shirt guard identified as Sornchai Sridee, as claimed by Democrat MP Sirichoke Sopha.

The DSI has not found any evidence that anyone was killed by men in black.

Referring to the DSI report mentioning the upward direction of a bullet in one of six people who died at Wat Pathum Wanaram, Pol Col Prawes said this was the bullet trajectory in the body and not the direction where the bullet came from.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

The Department of Special Investigation accepts there were "men in black" involved in the clash at Khok Wua intersection on April 10, 2010, but it has been unable to identify them, DSI deputy chief Pol Col Prawes Mulpramuk says.

The DSI also accepts there were "men in blue" involved in attacks on the peaceful redshirt protestors, over two days, at the Pattaya Asian conference, but has also been unable to identify them.

Everybody knows same same.

You can't argue with that

'Men in black' report probe sought by Weng | Bangkok Post: news

'Men in black' report probe sought by Weng

• Published: 6/10/2012 at 03:30 AM
• Newspaper section: News

Red-shirt co-leader Weng Tojirakarn has urged the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) to question the Truth for Reconciliation Commission (TRC) chief over the recently released report linking "men in black" to anti-government protests in 2010.

Mr Weng, who is also a Pheu Thai list-MP, yesterday submitted a letter to DSI deputy chief Prawes Moonpramuk, calling on the agency to probe the TRC's full report as up to 36 pages of it details the involvement of men in black at the red-shirt rally. The black-clad men, according the report, attacked security forces with war weapons, killing six soldiers, two policemen and one member of the Love Silom Group.

Mr Weng demanded TRC chairman Kanit na Nakorn and commission member Somchai Homla-or prove their claims.

Military: arms seized by reds missing - The Nation

Military: arms seized by reds missing

Olan Lertrattanadamrongkul
The Nation October 9, 2012 1:00 am

Among the Army's weapons confiscated by red-shirt protesters in April 2010, only one M-16 rifle has been returned to the military, the rest are still missing, Army spokesman Sansern Kaewkam-nerd said in testimony yesterday.

The missing weapons included 25 Tavor rifles, four M-16 rifles and 39 shotguns, he said in testimony before the House of Representative's sub-committee on political development and mass communication.

The weapons belonging to the Army were confiscated by red protesters during the bloody protest in April 2010. They were displayed on the red-shirts' stage at Rajdamnern Avenue on the day, he said.

Deputy Transportation Minister Chatt Kuldiloke, who was at the protest, said he saw a number of war weapons seized by the protesters and shown on the stage, but all of the weapons had been returned to the police.

"I would have helped to find them," he told the sub-committee chaired by the opposition Democrat's MP Watchara Petthong. Chat said the authorities employed excessive force to handle the situation, using armoured vehicles and other heavy war equipment to crack down on the protesters.

In other countries, anti-riot police were seen to be enough to handle such a protest, he said.

Sansern argued the weapons and armoured vehicles were necessary for security officials to protect themselves as the protesters were equipped with war weapons.

The military did not fire live bullets at the protesters but shot into the air to frighten them, he added.

It remained unclear whether the deaths, notably in Wat Prathumwanaram, were caused by the military, he said, and noted that the military had clear evidence that "men in black" were involved in the protest.

The evidence was absolutely different from the Department of Special Investigation's (DSI), released earlier, he said.

The protest leaders might not have known about the existence of any men in black, or might have known but turned a blind eye to them, he said.

The handling of the protest by authorities was a subject for debate in Thailand, with each faction blaming the other for the harsh treatment of protesters while being too lenient with supporters.

Senator Kamnoon Sitthisa-marn said yesterday in the Senate the Administration Court had ruled last week that the Somchai Wongsawat government's handling of the protest on October 7, 2008, was too harsh and had caused the deaths of some protesters.

Police chief Adul Saengsingkaew said the police had decided to appeal the court's verdict and would take the case as a lesson.

In a separate development, Democrat leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said yesterday the Democrats would hold a major rally at Lumpini Park on Sunday.

The rally would be a special episode as he would reveal the truth about the men in black during the political turmoil of 2010. There would be a presentation about the group, Abhisit said.

Abhisit also mentioned his book, "The Colourless Truth", would be launched soon.

Oh great- next we'll have some Men in Yellow staging sit ins at the airport.

It's quite funny really. More Men in Black seen at a Democrats rally than were spotted back in April/May 2010 at the UDD rallies.

Love the wooden machine guns. I had one like it when I was about seven years old.