TEFLers who don't have a clue how poorly paid they are

**Smeg** · 29-08-2008, 01:23 PM

I guess being allowed to stay in Thailand is sufficient payment.

Graduate engineers and salesmen earn more than TEFLers everywhere, so why is he so surprised about this?

Originally Posted by Bangkok Phil

For the past few months I've been doing a little part-time work at a large recruitment company. My job involves proof-reading resumes and interviewing job applicants for 5-10 minutes to ascertain their level of English. With the better applicants, we'll chat about why they want to leave their current position, what their long-term objectives are and what kind of job they're looking for, etc. It's given me a chance to meet a lot of Thai people from all walks of life (I've probably interviewed a thousand people up to now) and of course the opportunity to find out what Thais are earning and what kind of salaries they are aiming at when they move on to the next job. It's been a real eye-opener. It's made me realise just how far behind the 30,000 baht a month teacher has been left. In the early 90's, a 30,000 baht salary more or less held it's own. It wasn't a fortune, it wasn't something you'd brag about but you never felt that The Thais were making excessively more than you did. But times have changed.

Probably 95% of the people I interview have a degree or two. 60% are female, 40% are male and I would say 50% are under 30 with those between 30 and 40 making up another 40-45%. Only a very small percentage are over 40 it seems.

At the bottom of the ladder, you have call center staff. A large bank may be looking for a hundred people to sell credit cards and loans over the phone. This is often a new graduate's first position as they get a foot on the work ladder so the average age is about 22 or 23. This job pays in the region of 12,000 baht a month with the opportunity to bump it up to about 17,000 baht with commission.

What about the higher earners?
Engineers in their 20's with often very little work experience are earning about 40-60,000 a month. Good accounting people are on about the same. Even accounting women in their 20s with the personality of a dud battery are earning 30K. Sales managers are earning 50,000 as a minimum, often much more. For those who work in the finance sector, the sky's the limit. Most are earning in excess of 50-60K and I interviewed a 32-year-old guy this week who was finance manager for a small retail chain and he was currently taking home 192K a month - AND he was looking for a job with more money and benefits.
Human resource at manager level for a decent sized company, you can virtually name your price. I haven't seen one earning less than 100K.

It's opened my eyes because I rather naively thought that all professional Thais at managerial level earned about 30-40K a month and teachers were almost but perhaps not quite on the same level.

So this is why those ads you see for 'experience the magic of Thailand' and include a teaching job as part of the package, and say that you will be earning four times the salary of a local really get on my wick.
How much are Thais earning? - Ajarn Forum - Living and Teaching In Thailand

**Slipstream** · 29-08-2008, 01:34 PM

Wages for teachers have started to hit the glass ceiling it seems.
Seven years ago the teachers were happy (ish) with 30k baht per month.
If they were a shortage of teachers and they fought for higher wages then there might be a change. But too many teaching folk need Thailand more than Thailand needs them.
The governments English Speaking program is too entrenching in the class system; send the rich kids abroad and the ones left behind get the sub-standard english teachers (as a general rule).

**mrsquirrel** · 29-08-2008, 02:08 PM

It's quite obvious with the change in regulations of late that there are the people who need to be there and the people who are there for fun. The ones who are there for fun have left or are planning on leaving.

The ones who need to be there are prepared to jump through hoops to make sure they can stay. Be this an 80k course or a more expensive Masters program or even just resitting 4x4,000B exams again.

EPs can't afford to pay more. They never raise their prices from their basic levels. Even if they get more students in they will reach a maximum capacity after six years.

Max per class in an EP is 30 students - so being conservative

30x (at my old school ) 35,000 per year x6 = 6,300,000

Having one whitey per class acting as a teacher/homeroom teacher/english or science. at 40,000 per month - not hard to get if you are good.

40 x 12 x 6= 2880000

leaving 3.5 million per year.

take away running costs - a/c computers, books, equipment - 2,000,000 per year.

Maybe 1.5M to play with - probably closer to 1M.

They don't have the money to pay any more.

**Bexar County Stud** · 29-08-2008, 02:54 PM

Bangkok Phil is a bit obtuse, and has a tendency to wildly exaggerate his business acumen/experience. Hat's off to him for his success in inheriting ajarn.com, but like a lot of small timers who've caught a whiff, he often overestimates his grasp of things and likes to project/present himself as a know-it-all guru.

For example: "I rather naively thought that all professional Thais at managerial level earned about 30-40K a month."

That's not only naive, but just plain dumb. "All" professional Thais, as if "professional" was a homogeneous group...and not taking into account different industries, such as advertising, construction, IT, agriculture, entertainment, etc.

Just as it is back home, there's quite a difference in "professional" salaries across various industries and occupations. Why would one assume that there's a standard baseline for professional salaries? Anywhere?

Furthermore, his examples: engineering, sales managers, accounting, finance...I think it's pretty safe to say that these folks tend to make more than schoolteachers just about anywhere in the world. Is it really that surprising that the professions he mentioned offer higher salaries than TEFL teachers, even by Thai standards?

Real professions have vetting, qualification, and performance/experience thresholds. Said thresholds are extremely relaxed or non-existent for TEFLers making 30K a month. It may come to a surprise to Phil and his little buddies that there's more to being a professional than simply calling yourself a professional. Even in Thailand, FFS.

**Chairman Mao** · 29-08-2008, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Smeg

TEFL salaries are poor. IMO they are so simply because this reflects the professionalism and training involved.

You've obviously never heard of supply and demand. Or know anything about it.

**Smeg** · 29-08-2008, 07:18 PM

^ Of course I have. There isn't much demand for people who are in the main trying to spend their life as if they are on holiday and have 4 weeks professional training.

**dirtydog** · 29-08-2008, 08:09 PM

I thought proper teachers earned tonnes of money over here, can't understand why these TEFLers don't get properly qualified and start looking for jobs in the 150k baht per month and up, instead they do a 4 week course and then whinge when they get paid what they are worth.

**DrB0b** · 29-08-2008, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by dirtydog

I thought proper teachers earned tonnes of money

Thought you were English, tonnes is froggy!

**aging one** · 29-08-2008, 08:35 PM

DD how much you makin a month these days?

**dirtydog** · 29-08-2008, 08:36 PM

Lets look at this logically, if your white you can come here, do a 4 week course and get a job that pays 30 k baht per month, but only when your working, plus you would probably end up paying for your own visa runs etc, so lets say school is open 8 months per year, you are gonna earn 240k baht per year minus visa runs, or.....

You spend 3 years getting a proper degree, yep you have lost that chance of earning 720baht over the 3 years you could have spent in Thailand, but hell you get a job in a proper school you could earn that 4 to 5 months, be like KW with his maids and gardeners and drivers etc instead of living in a 3,000baht per month flea infested box.

**Smeg** · 29-08-2008, 08:36 PM

Bangkok Phil finally snaps out of his 20-year daydream in which he is convinced farangs in Thailand (such as him) are special and thus automatically deserve and receive premium salary levels over the locals. Wakey wakey Philip.

**dirtydog** · 29-08-2008, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by aging one

DD how much you makin a month these days?

Ahh, I haven't done any work the last couple of months, so going thru the books and tallying it all up it works out to around zero baht

got a few quotes I was supposed to have done but haven't bothered, plus next week I shall be away for a few days so I aint got time to work for a living

**DrB0b** · 29-08-2008, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by dirtydog

Lets look at this logically, if your white you can come here, do a 4 week course and get a job that pays 30 k baht per month, but only when your working, plus you would probably end up paying for your own visa runs etc, so lets say school is open 8 months per year, you are gonna earn 240k baht per year minus visa runs, or.....

You spend 3 years getting a proper degree, yep you have lost that chance of earning 720baht over the 3 years you could have spent in Thailand, but hell you get a job in a proper school you could earn that 4 to 5 months, be like KW with his maids and gardeners and drivers etc instead of living in a 3,000baht per month flea infested box.

And don't forget that many low-end teflers work for an hourly rate and often get only 8 or 10 hours a week. I've met a few up here in CM who are only pulling in 8-10k a month. I lived on that kind of money when I first came here but I was a lazy lao-kao drinking scumbag and spent so much time in an alcoholic haze I didn't notice where I slept and forgot to eat for days at a time, pretty similar to living back in England on the dole but with rice whiskey instead of white cider and with lower quality weed, at least the birds here still have their own teeth. I can't imagine how somebody could live on that long-term but some people do it, god knows why.

**aging one** · 29-08-2008, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by dirtydog

Ahh, I haven't done any work the last couple of months, so going thru the books and tallying it all up it works out to around zero baht got a few quotes I was supposed to have done but haven't bothered, plus next week I shall be away for a few days so I aint got time to work for a living

Fucking honest, and I am having fun. What more is there? Cheers.

**Smeg** · 29-08-2008, 09:13 PM

AO, I saw that you are heading home in July 09. Good luck. I also saw on Phil's thread that my OP is taken from that your Mrs earns 200k per month or thereabouts. Hope she''ll be able to make a mint in the states, or its gonna be all up to you!

**William** · 29-08-2008, 09:19 PM

I've said for a long time that Phil and I were earning around the same hourly wage in '96 (when we breifely worked together) as teachers do today.

IMHO, teaching salaries in Thailand have not kept pace with increases in cost of living - and with inflation/cost of living rising in Thailand, things must be hurting.

But, I would also say thatteachers in Thailand are not alone in that boat. I know a few teachers here in Sydney and, on average, they are on around 35k a year, which is about 2/3rds of the average salary.

Today there are certain occupations that are seen as vocational - teaching and nursing being classic examples (and here in Aus, the fire dept.). I feel very sorry for people who elect to work in this sector of society: they serve a far better purpose than most and get fuck all - not even a "thank you" - in return.

In this regard, Thailand is catching up with the, so-called, "developed" world.

**William** · 29-08-2008, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Smeg

AO, I saw that you are heading home in July 09. Good luck. I also saw on Phil's thread that my OP is taken from that your Mrs earns 200k per month or thereabouts. Hope she''ll be able to make a mint in the states, or its gonna be all up to you!

Why, if the amount is gross then it's about the average wage in the US (200K a month = around 5k)

**paulsmithson** · 29-08-2008, 09:32 PM

Teflers are overpaid morons worth about 10 k per month at best.
No one here ever tells the truth about thai native teachers salaries. addvertied and paid are totally different. very few get less than 60k per month plus benefits.

**William** · 29-08-2008, 09:37 PM

well, I know a [qualified] teacher in Thailand earning 120,000 Baht a month - which is about 10,000 Aus Dollars a year more than he was making as teacher in Bris.

**Smeg** · 29-08-2008, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by William

I feel very sorry for people who elect to work in this sector of society: they serve a far better purpose than most and get fuck all - not even a "thank you" - in return.

My time teaching in the UK secondary schools was extremely rewarding, not financially, but I found it far more stimulating than working in a stuffy lawyers practise, which I have also done. Lawyer's practises are only one better than working in a morgue. (which I'm guessing as I haven't tried that one)

Teachers in the main don't get paid much. As I said in the OP, I guess that those that work as TEFLers here do it for other reasons. Up to them. The thing that struck me about Phil's comments were his misguided beliefs about how much TEFLers earn now. After all, he makes his living from TEFL trainers and recruiters and yet is completely out of touch with the facts about the industry.

**kingwilly** · 29-08-2008, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by William

well, I know a [qualified] teacher in Thailand earning 120,000 Baht a month - which is about 10,000 Aus Dollars a year more than he was making as teacher in Bris.

exactly. I earn more o/s than I would at home, plus the benefits (imo) of living in Asia.

**William** · 29-08-2008, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Smeg

Originally Posted by William

I feel very sorry for people who elect to work in this sector of society: they serve a far better purpose than most and get fuck all - not even a "thank you" - in return.

My time teaching in the UK secondary schools was extremely rewarding, not financially, but I found it far more stimulating than working in a stuffy lawyers practise, which I have also done. Lawyer's practises are only one better than working in a morgue. (which I'm guessing as I haven't tried that one)

Teachers in the main don't get paid much. As I said in the OP, I guess that those that work as TEFLers here do it for other reasons. Up to them. The thing that struck me about Phil's comments were his misguided beliefs about how much TEFLers earn now. After all, he makes his living from TEFL trainers and recruiters and yet is completely out of touch with the facts about the industry.

While I would agree largely with what you have said about work in a law firm (it's a "firm", a "practice" is something one may do), it rather depends on the job you do and the area of law one works in.

I was very lucky and had over 10 years in Banking & Finance, which I loved, but others, such as my sister, thought the dullest thing in the world.

Horses for courses.

**DrAndy** · 29-08-2008, 10:17 PM

I have been reliably informed that working in a morgue is a wonderful thing to do, always assuming that sort of thing is to your taste

**Topper** · 29-08-2008, 11:05 PM

What about those poor non TEFL'ers that don't have a clue? What jobs do they tie down?

**kingwilly** · 29-08-2008, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by CSFFan

What about those poor non TEFL'ers that don't have a clue? What jobs do they tie down?

no idea ...

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