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Western Libya has always been a hot bed for Islamic extremist, takfiris in particular. So you can bet they make up a large percentage of the so called rebels. There is less justification for this war then there was for Iraq. Saddam atleast had a history of attacking other countries, Gadhafi's Libya has never done that, what is going on now is a domestic issue in Libya. For the West to decide who gets to rule Libya is absurd and criminal.
And the French may be on the receiving end of a few mustard gas bombs sent across the Med by your friend in Tripoli...Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
Tomorrow the world will go to hell again. Just like it has every day for the past 6000 years. Right now I'm enjoying seeing Gadaffi getting fucked. Yeah, sure,there's a whole lot more to it than that, but, damn, it's very satisfying to see animals like Gadaffi get fucked up. Just like it was good to see Saddam hang. Yes, consequences and all that, but that mofo deserved to hang, no matter what, just like Gadaffi deserves to burn.
In the midst of all the geopolitical uncertainties let's just take a moment to revel in the destruction of these mass murdering animals. No doubt it will eventually result in chaos and horror, everything always does, but I, at least, cherish the thought of that foul murderer Gadaffi cowering in his bunker tonight, almost as much as I cherish the thought of seeing his corpse defiled by the people of Libya sometime over the next few months.
^ Don't forget his progeny... What's good for the goose...
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Gaddafi's son used spies for British PhD thesis that decries lack of democracy - Telegraph
Quite ironic that the fuckwit calls for democracy and greater influence for business in multi-national affairs in his doctoral thesis...
France24 - Odyssey Dawn lives up to its name
Odyssey Dawn lives up to its name
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ust days after Operation Odyssey Dawn was born, there’s little sign of a significant Libyan rebel advance toward the capital of Tripoli.But while the ground war hasn’t yet begun, a low-intensity war of words has broken out in Coalition ranks
By Leela JACINTO (text)
Just days after Operation Odyssey Dawn was born, there’s little sign of a significant Libyan rebel advance toward the capital of Tripoli. But while the ground war hasn’t yet begun, a low-intensity war of words has broken out within Coalition ranks over who should take over command of the Libyan war.
Multinational disagreements over military control within a coalition have been known to break out – before a war.
But they aren’t generally expected in the thick of one.
The latest diplomatic disagreement pits countries that want NATO to wrest control of the Libyan war from the US against those that don’t. It comes at time when experts are mulling likely outcomes of Operation Odyssey Dawn.
While regime change in Libya is something the international community would like to see, Western political leaders are keenly aware that it won't come easily. The Libyans, we’ve been told, must do the bloody work - getting rid of Muammar Gaddafi after 42 tyrannical years in power - themselves. But if they are unable or unwilling to do so, the prospects look bleak - with experts looking to Iraq circa 1991 and Bosnia circa 1993 for possible outcome scenarios.
In Iraq, the no-fly zone was in place for more than a decade until the 2003 war finally ousted Saddam Hussein. In Bosnia, air operations eventually expanded to include close air support of UN troops until Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic was humbled to the negotiating table.
Whether via the diplomatic wrangling off the battlefield or the eventual outcomes on it, Operation Odyssey Dawn seems to already be living up to its name in more ways than one. It may be sometime before dusk falls on this epic international voyage.
US says NATO, France says ‘non’
The latest divisions in the Coalition ranks became evident on Tuesday, when US President Barack Obama, following a phone conversation with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip, said the two countries agreed that NATO should have command and control of the Libyan mission.
The US - which currently has de-facto control of the operation - is eager to hand it over, and Washington believes that NATO has the capability and experience to coordinate a modern, multinational military operation.
But France, which launched the first strikes on Libya, disagrees, citing the US-dominated alliance's poor reputation in the Arab world.
In a speech before parliament Tuesday, French Foreign Minister Alain Juppé said France supported the formation of political steering committees, comprised of the foreign ministers of allied nations, to steer the course of the Libyan operation. But while the international alliance has made much of the Arab League’s support for the UN resolution mandating the Libyan operation, Arab nations have not been very forthcoming with Operation Odyssey Dawn.
On Tuesday, the United Arab Emirates (UAE), an oil-rich Gulf nation with a well-equipped modern air force, said it would restrict its involvement to humanitarian missions.
With Saudi Arabia, an Arab powerhouse, locked in cross-border missions in neighbouring Bahrain and possibly Yemen, Qatar has been the only Arab nation to commit three airplanes so far.
Still working on the endgame
On the ground, military strategists are still formulating an endgame - something generals usually try to do before heading into war.
“The worry is to decide how far the mission will go, what the objectives are, what is the exit strategy,” said Robert Malley, Middle East and North Africa Director of the Brussels-based International Crisis Group, in an interview with FRANCE 24. “Those are questions the military had on Day One and they continue to have them – until this comes to an end.”
The ideal end, of course, would see Libyan opposition forces - under the protection of the internationally enforced no-fly zone - marching on Tripoli and toppling Gaddafi. But even though the no-fly zone over Libya has been implemented, Christopher Dickey, Middle East editor at US Newsweek magazine, says the signs for a ground troop advance have not been encouraging so far.
“The gamble is, can the Libyan people resolve the situation now under the sheltering sky of the no-fly zone,” explained Dickey. “The signs over the past 24 to 36 hours have not been encouraging. There are problems that I felt might develop - and I’m sorry to see they have – which is essentially [that] the energy of the uprising was spent in the first couple of weeks, when the opposition was advancing, winning; Gaddafi’s diplomats and soldiers were defecting, and it looked like victory.”
That was before Gaddafi gathered his forces earlier this month and recaptured towns the opposition had already won.
But while the no-fly zone has effectively halted Gaddafi’s advance, there’s little sign that opposition forces will swiftly regain the lost terrain, much less advance on the Libyan capital.
Understanding the local partner: rebels or bourgeois protesters?
The fighting power and experience of the opposition forces have always been questionable.
“They’re not troops, they’re protesters,” explained Dickey. “They saw the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt, which were driven by a new, young, educated bourgeoisie – or aspiring bourgeoisie – and they thought they could do the same in Libya. But unlike in Egypt and Tunisia, Gaddafi turned to his military units, and it became a war.”
Whether these Libyans are called "rebels", "protesters", or simply the “opposition”, they’re still a largely unknown entity - a war partner the international community is still grappling to fully understand.
Their ranks include a motley mix of defected diplomats and soldiers on the ground, coupled with what looks like professionals – doctors, lawyers, teachers – who have taken up guns for a cause.
One of the scenarios gaining weight in policy circles is a sort of Iraq circa 1990s, where Libya would be split into an opposition-controlled east and a Gaddafi-controlled west much in the same Iraq was parcelled into the Kurdish north, Shiite south and Sunni central region during the sanctions and no-fly zone era.
Where do the tribes fit in the political jigsaw?
But while much has been said about a rebel-controlled eastern Cyrenaica region – with Benghazi as a capital – pitted against the western Tripolitania area, not much has been said about the vast southern Saharan desert areas – and how Libya’s tribes would fit into the new jigsaw puzzle.
The Warfalla, Libya’s largest, predominantly western tribe, for instance, is spread across the east, with many Warfalla tribesmen who live in Benghazi declaring their support for the opposition. So, it seems, have the Tarhuna – another major tribe. But not much is known about the political positions of a vast array of smaller tribes, or how they could be used in a possible post-Gaddafi reconstruction process.
But then, as some experts readily admit, not too much is known about Libya, a sparsely populated, predominantly desert nation that has been shrouded from the outside world for decades.
“Basically, Libya was a one-man show and it wasn’t about understanding Libya, it was about understanding Gaddafi,” said Dickey. “I’m not sure even Libyans have a clear idea of who they are because the shadow cast by Gaddafi has been so vast.”
A reassertion of long-curtailed identities following the fall of dictators is a problem the international community has faced before, notably in the conflicts in the Balkans and Iraq.
But with Libya, many experts are still grappling to understand its potentially dramatic implications. As Malley admits, “We really don’t know Libya that well... Iraq was a black box,” said Malley referring to the Iraqi situation before the 2003 invasion. “Libya is an even darker one for many of us.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhOh
in the us citizens elect & :sssh: corporations determine policy.
amazing that legislation is often admittedly written by corporations (lobbyists)
video of lobby checks being passed out on the floor of congress while a vote is being conducted on regulating that industry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=MAC2xeT2yOg
video of bribes being passed out as the corrupt congress votes.
no repercussions for the briber or the bribed
France has got itself in a pickle here, it decided to re-join NATO militarily under Sarcozy and now is afeared it might have to be commanded by a British lead NATO force.
France wanted to take the lead over Lybia.
The US wants out.
Germany wont join the party.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrB0b
Dont hold back will you, still its in the blood from where you are reputedly from.
Turkey, a NATO member, is also asking for NATO as an orginisation does not get involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bower
Probably already set the wheels in motion for bringing down an Air France passenger plane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muadib
stupid non-sense and flawed logic as usual,Quote:
Originally Posted by DrB0b
what you are advocating is spreading of cahos and violence,
sometimes the beast or the monster is a better alternative than spreading cahos or looking for a new order and killing more people,
it's a complete fuckup, I can't believe they are letting Sarko get away with itQuote:
Originally Posted by Bower
hopefully this will be his demise locally and internationally,
The UN mandate is not for that reason, although it is being used for itQuote:
Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
It has been obvious from the beginning that the various agencies have been working away behind the scenes to try to get rid of Gadaffi with a coup
They are now pretending that they are protecting civilians by attacking the government forces and arming the rebels to try to complete the coup d'etat
as usual, they have fuked it up and did not really act fast enough to do the job precisely, so more civilians will die at the hands of both sides
and if he goes then what??you still have his followers,and they now hate everyone on the other side,like to know what the UN are going to do about them.divided country now
I don't think they really thought that through, exactly like the Iraq mess
this time it will be Bonaparte Mini Me Sarko fault, but the Americans followed him blindly, and that's a big mistake, that would have never happened under GW Bush :p
These OCD suffering grammar Nazi's do seem to get everywhere!Quote:
The BBC's Kevin Connolly in Benghazi says at the burned city courthouse which has become the HQ of the revolution, some of the offices are old cells with iron doors; the walls are bare brick; and someone's gone round correcting the spelling on English-language rebel posters.
Got that right. Under Bush we had Donald Rumsfeld who was instrumental keeping Gaddaffi from getting nukes. See related post in Issues.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
Bombing a commercial passenger jet (with a former boss of mine and his family on it) is a perfectly good enough excuse for me to top the bastard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Gribbs
Add to that repeatedly sending weapons, not always successfully, to the IRA, and you might see why some of us don't share your view of this upstanding humanitarian.
You don't actually believe that Seif wrote his own thesis do you?Quote:
Quite ironic that the fuckwit calls for democracy and greater influence for business in multi-national affairs in his doctoral thesis...
:rofl:
"pupa" did you mean chaos? You know like disorder, anarchy, disorder or is "caos" some froggy term none of us have ever heard of? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
The United States dismissed yesterday North Korea’s crowing claim Tuesday that Libya’s abandonment of nuclear weapons in 2003 led to the bombing of the country by the United States and its allies.
INSIDE Korea JoongAng Daily
^I think he will find that its not wanting to piss off the Chinese and not any nukes that's keeping nk safe. They would be well advised to remember that, when they periodically do things to piss off china, unless they want to learn the hard way
It does look very much as if the western air protection is slow to react and relatively ineffective at stopping Gadflies ground offensives against civilians.
Whole cities surrounded by Gadflies tanks bombarding them while the UN alliance doesnt appear to be doing much about it.
Perhaps tomorrow mornings news will tell a different story? I hope so for those poor peoples sake.
BBC News - Libya: Gaddafi forces keep up assault on rebel cities
I noticed how the Western media hasn't reported on the rebels massacring black Africans, they consider all black Africans to be mercenaries, despite many of them being Libyan citizens, and civilian workers. Does the West think these rebels are going to handout milk and cookies if they ever get to Tripoli? They are going to make Gadhafi look like an amateur.
Obama is a real idiot, his wanting to renew old ties has got himself into the type of war he swore he wouldn't get the country in. This is a criminal war with no objective, all it is doing is wasting money. He better pull out of this coalition as quick as he can. While Obama is busy kissing the ass of the half Jew Sarkozy his fellow black Africans are being slaughtered like sheep by the same people he was duped into supporting.
afrol News - Africans hunted down in "liberated" Libya
what a fuckup, hopefully the coalition will be defeated, with an humiliating defeat for the French, that will teach Sarko