Patriot Act Used Against US Citizens

[barbaro]

We talked about this happening. And it is. The Patriot Act is above all other Constitutional rights.

This is worth watching.

[blackgang]

I think that the ACT is also a bunch of shit, the feds are taking more and more each day.
The Fed was not meant to have such power and no where in the Constitution or the Bill Of Rights does it say that they are, but does say what their limits are, but no one will stand up to them.
And it continues to become more powerful daily.

[panama hat]

When and by whom was it instigated?

[Rural Surin]

The Patriot Act used towards Merkin citizens. Wasn't that the original intent of that piece of legislation?

[blackgang]

Not just Americans but was supposed to be as a way to root out terrorists and it was passed by a Demo majority congress, and now we have a mostly Demo govt with a Demo Pres, so why hasn't he stopped it if he is so fucking cool and Bush was so fucking bad?
He has changed nothing that Bush was doing, but how much money the pres can throw away and has strengthened the govt hold on everything.

[Rural Surin]

Not just Americans but was supposed to be as a way to root out terrorists and it was passed by a Demo majority congress, and now we have a mostly Demo govt with a Demo Pres, so why hasn't he stopped it if he is so fucking cool and Bush was so fucking bad?
He has changed nothing that Bush was doing, but how much money the pres can throw away and has strengthened the govt hold on everything.

Well, you don't have to look far to 'root out' domestic terrorism. Based in Washington, DC for decades.

[Whiteshiva]

Not just Americans but was supposed to be as a way to root out terrorists and it was passed by a Demo majority congress, and now we have a mostly Demo govt with a Demo Pres, so why hasn't he stopped it if he is so fucking cool and Bush was so fucking bad?
He has changed nothing that Bush was doing, but how much money the pres can throw away and has strengthened the govt hold on everything.

Well, you don't have to look far to 'root out' domestic terrorism. Based in Washington, DC for decades.

In Michael Moore's film "Fahrenheit 9/11" he points out how little time the Congress had before voting on the bill, and how most of them didn't even read the act before voting in favour of it.

Scary!

[panama hat]

^ All in the name of patriotic fervour akin to the McCarthy era where you were either 'for or against' . . . isn't that also the phraseology employed by Bush at the time of the drafting and voting. . . not in specific reference to the Act but in general terms?

[barbaro]

^ True, WS. Most did not even read the bill. And it was called the "Patriot" Act so politicians (who run for re-election every 2 years) would feel compelled to vote for it.

[blackgang]

I just got some news too, The fair State of Montana is telling the feds to shove the gun control up their ass and will do as they please, I will have to do some verification and then maybe post it.

[panama hat]

But it isn't just about gun rights, it is far more than that. It has to do with other 'basic' freedoms the people in the US don't have anymore. We're talking about privacy laws, the media etc . . .

As was mentioned before, the act was voted on in a rush-rush mode to ensure these draconian measures would pass quickly in a time of being 'under siege' by foreign forces.

[sabang]

Obama would be well advised to repeal the Patriot Act, although I have not heard anything about whether he intends to do so.

[blackgang]

^^Yes, you got that right, and they did slip the fid to the folks and have carried it a lot further than anyone had thought they would, but you let them start something and it seems like they never get enough.
OH yes we need this temporary tax for some shit, so OK go ahead, but then there is never a stopping place.
They will have to repeal the whole thing or it never will stop expanding.
I am surely glad I am as old
as I am and so my time is bound to be short, I don't wish to live in the world the way things are now and they do get worse daily.
I don't like to think of what my youngest child is going to have to contend with or how she will ever do it. Or even my oldest child if she is still living, how will she maintain her drug supplies in this time of rampant pricing and inflation.

[blackgang]

Obama would be well advised to repeal the Patriot Act, although I have not heard anything about whether he intends to do so.

You must be trying to bullshit yourself, I ain't going for it, Obama does not want less Fed control, he wants more and a larger govt.

[barbaro]

Obama would be well advised to repeal the Patriot Act, although I have not heard anything about whether he intends to do so.

You must be trying to bullshit yourself, I ain't going for it, Obama does not want less Fed control, he wants more and a larger govt.

This unfortunately, is what all leaders and politicians want.

Once the gov takes something away from the citizens, usurps rights, and garners more power, it almost never gives it back (repeals laws).

It doesn't matter who's in charge - and no - it doesn't make it right.

[TSR2]

Once the gov takes something away from the citizens, usurps rights, and garners more power, it almost never gives it back (repeals laws

So what are we /can we do about it , or do we just act out our frustrations thru mediums like this

Democracy gives us the means but not the need nor inclination,

Having said that the trouble is that exercising your wishes is often a costly forae

[barbaro]

Once the gov takes something away from the citizens, usurps rights, and garners more power, it almost never gives it back (repeals laws

So what are we /can we do about it , or do we just act out our frustrations thru mediums like this

Democracy gives us the means but not the need nor inclination,

Having said that the trouble is that exercising your wishes is often a costly forae

Politically, 3rd parties are excluded, basically.

Force? Not possible.

Awareness? Possible and important. It happens in mediums like this.

[blackgang]

Here is something that states are doing and it will eventually lead to something being done. it will bring the feds -V-. States, and the feds can not just set back and watch, it is a challenge.

[quote][]Made in Montana: New Montana Law Makes Certain Guns and Ammo Exempt From Federal Regulation

[barbaro]

Here is something that states are doing and it will eventually lead to something being done. it will bring the feds -V-. States, and the feds can not just set back and watch, it is a challenge.

]Made in Montana: New Montana Law Makes Certain Guns and Ammo Exempt From Federal Regulation

Thanks for this, BG.

I am a strong advocate for state and local rights - the right for the local people to make decisions regarding laws, etc.

[blackgang]

here is the bill as written and the feds will have to do something, so it's a start.

May 5, 2009
MONTANA DEFIES FEDS OVER RESTRICTIVE GUN LAWS
Montana Governor Signs New Gun Law
Executive Summary - The USA state of Montana has signed into power a
revolutionary gun law. I mean REVOLUTIONARY.
The State of Montana has defied the federal government and their gun
laws. This will prompt a showdown between the federal government and the
State of Montana. The federal government fears citizens owning guns.
They try to curtail what types of guns they can own. The gun control
laws all have one common goal - confiscation of privately owned
firearms.
Montana has gone beyond drawing a line in the sand. They have challenged
the Federal Government. The fed now either takes them on and risks them
saying the federal agents have no right to violate their state gun laws
and arrest the federal agents that try to enforce the federal firearms
acts. This will be a world-class event to watch. Montana could go to
voting for secession from the union, which is really throwing the
gauntlet in Obamas face. If the federal government does nothing they
lose face.

Important Points - If guns and ammunition are manufactured inside the
State of Montana for sale and use inside that state then the federal
firearms laws have no applicability since the federal government only
has the power to control commerce across state lines. Montana has the
law on their side. But, since when did the USA start following their own
laws especially the constitution of the USA, the very document that
empowers the USA?
Silencers made in Montana and sold in Montana would be fully legal and
not registered.
There would be no firearm registration, serial numbers, criminal records
check, waiting periods or paperwork required. So in a short period of
time there would be millions and millions of unregistered untraceable
guns in Montana. Way to go Montana.
Discussion - Let us see what Obama does. If he hits Montana hard they
will probably vote to secede from the USA. The governor of Texas has
already been refusing Federal money because he does not want to agree to
the conditions that go with it and he has been saying secession is a
right they have as sort of a threat. Things are no longer the same with
the USA. Do not be deceived by Obama acting as if all is the same, it is
not.
Text of the New Law
HOUSE BILL NO. 246
INTRODUCED BY J. BONIEK, BENNETT, BUTCHER, CURTISS, RANDALL, WARBURTON
AN ACT EXEMPTING FROM FEDERAL REGULATION UNDER THE COMMERCE CLAUSE OF
THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES A FIREARM, A FIREARM ACCESSORY, OR
AMMUNITION MANUFACTURED AND RETAINED IN MONTANA; AND PROVIDING AN
APPLICABILITY DATE.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF MONTANA:
Section 1. Short title. [Sections 1 through 6] may be cited as the
"Montana Firearms Freedom Act".
Section 2. Legislative declarations of authority. The legislature
declares that the authority for [sections 1 through 6] is the following:
(1) The 10th amendment to the United States constitution guarantees to
the states and their people all powers not granted to the federal
government elsewhere in the constitution and reserves to the state and
people of Montana certain powers as they were understood at the time
that Montana was admitted to statehood in 1889. The guaranty of those
powers is a matter of contract between the state and people of Montana
and the United States as of the time that the compact with the United
States was agreed upon and adopted by Montana and the United States in
1889.
(2) The ninth amendment to the United States constitution guarantees to
the people rights not granted in the constitution and reserves to the
people of Montana certain rights, as they were understood at the time
that Montana was admitted to statehood in 1889. The guaranty of those
rights is a matter of contract between the state and people of Montana
and the United States as of the time that the compact with the United
States was agreed upon and adopted by Montana and the United States in
1889.
(3) The regulation of intrastate commerce is vested in the states under
the 9th and 10th amendments to the United States constitution,
particularly if not expressly preempted by federal law. Congress has not
expressly preempted state regulation of intrastate commerce pertaining
to the manufacture on an intrastate basis of firearms, firearms
accessories, and ammunition.
(4) The second amendment to the United States constitution reserves to
the people the right to keep and bear arms as that right was understood
at the time that Montana was admitted to statehood in 1889, and the
guaranty of the right is a matter of contract between the state and
people of Montana and the United States as of the time that the compact
with the United States was agreed upon and adopted by Montana and the
United States in 1889.(5) Article II, section 12, of the Montana
constitution clearly secures to Montana citizens, and prohibits
government interference with, the right of individual Montana citizens
to keep and bear arms. This constitutional protection is unchanged from
the 1889 Montana constitution, which was approved by congress and the
people of Montana, and the right exists, as it was understood at the
time that the compact with the United States was agreed upon and adopted
by Montana and the United States in 1889.
Section 3. Definitions. As used in [sections 1 through 6], the following
definitions apply:
(1) "Borders of Montana" means the boundaries of Montana described in
Article I, section 1, of the 1889 Montana constitution.
(2) "Firearms accessories" means items that are used in conjunction with
or mounted upon a firearm but are not essential to the basic function of
a firearm, including but not limited to telescopic or laser sights,
magazines, flash or sound suppressors, folding or aftermarket stocks and
grips, speedloaders, ammunition carriers, and lights for target
illumination.
(3) "Generic and insignificant parts" includes but is not limited to
springs, screws, nuts, and pins.
(4) "Manufactured" means that a firearm, a firearm accessory, or
ammunition has been created from basic materials for functional
usefulness, including but not limited to forging, casting, machining, or
other processes for working materials.
Section 4. Prohibitions. A personal firearm, a firearm accessory, or
ammunition that is manufactured commercially or privately in Montana and
that remains within the borders of Montana is not subject to federal law
or federal regulation, including registration, under the authority of
congress to regulate interstate commerce. It is declared by the
legislature that those items have not traveled in interstate commerce.
This section applies to a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition
that is manufactured in Montana from basic materials and that can be
manufactured without the inclusion of any significant parts imported
from another state. Generic and insignificant parts that have other
manufacturing or consumer product applications are not firearms,
firearms accessories, or ammunition, and their importation into Montana
and incorporation into a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition
manufactured in Montana does not subject the firearm, firearm accessory,
or ammunition to federal regulation. It is declared by the legislature
that basic materials, such as unmachined steel and unshaped wood, are
not firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition and are not subject to
congressional authority to regulate firearms, firearms accessories, and
ammunition under interstate commerce as if they were actually firearms,
firearms accessories, or ammunition. The authority of congress to
regulate interstate commerce in basic materials does not include
authority to regulate firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition
made in Montana from those materials. Firearms accessories that are
imported into Montana from another state and that are subject to federal
regulation as being in interstate commerce do not subject a firearm to
federal regulation under interstate commerce because they are attached
to or used in conjunction with a firearm in Montana.
Section 5. Exceptions. [Section 4] does not apply to:
(1) A firearm that cannot be carried and used by one person;
(2) A firearm that has a bore diameter greater than 1 1/2 inches and
that uses smokeless powder, not black powder, as a propellant;
(3) ammunition with a projectile that explodes using an explosion of
chemical energy after the projectile leaves the firearm; or
(4) a firearm that discharges two or more projectiles with one
activation of the trigger or other firing device.
Section 6. Marketing of firearms. A firearm manufactured or sold in
Montana under [sections 1 through 6] must have the words "Made in
Montana" clearly stamped on a central metallic part, such as the
receiver or frame.
Section 7. Codification instruction. [Sections 1 through 6] are intended
to be codified as an integral part of Title 30, and the provisions of
Title 30 apply to [sections 1 through 6].
Section 8. Applicability. [This act] applies to firearms, firearms
accessories, and ammunition that are manufactured, as defined in
[section 3], and retained in Montana after October 1, 2009.

[Rural Surin]

Sagebrush Rebellion...

[sabang]

There would be no firearm registration, serial numbers, criminal records check, waiting periods or paperwork required. So in a short period of
time there would be millions and millions of unregistered untraceable
guns in Montana. Way to go Montana.

Silencers made in Montana and sold in Montana would be fully legal and not registered.

Curious- why would some elk hunter or whatever want a silencer in the big sky state?

Why does the author think it is a good thing to have 'millions and millions' of unregistered, untraceable guns in Montana, and of course sold with no criminal record check?

I doubt Montana is one of the states with a major crime and firearms problem as it happens. But the state then exporting/ smuggling this sort of stuff to gangbangers in LA and Miami could certainly be a problem.

[blackgang]

Curious- why would some elk hunter or whatever want a silencer in the big sky state

Never gave it any thought, I guess what you want don't hurt me none and so it is none of my business.

Why does the author think it is a good thing to have 'millions and millions' of unregistered, untraceable guns in Montana, and of course sold with no criminal record check

I don't know, do you know how long we been registering guns where I come from?
I have a lot of guns I have bought that are not registered, the ones left to me by my grandfather and my dad were most not registered.
We have lived that way most of my life and registering anything even hand guns was not a thing we did until just recently and we have lived that way a long time so why do you think it need to be done now, don't seem to stop the violence and killing does it?

[Jet Gorgon]

In Michael Moore's film "Fahrenheit 9/11" he points out how little time the Congress had before voting on the bill, and how most of them didn't even read the act before voting in favour of it.

Scary!

Gee, that sounds the same as Obama's Stimulus Bill.

Once the gov takes something away from the citizens, usurps rights, and garners more power, it almost never gives it back (repeals laws).
It doesn't matter who's in charge - and no - it doesn't make it right.

Agree. Unfortunately, I see more of it coming from Obama. And, even more unfortunately, he possesses a reality-distortion mechanism that allows him to convince most of his listeners to believe anything he says. (Is that a cool description or what? Stolen and paraphrased from a line in The Economist.)

I am a strong advocate for state and local rights - the right for the local people to make decisions regarding laws, etc.

Agree. Thanks also, BG, for that Montana info.

I doubt Montana is one of the states with a major crime and firearms problem.

Yep, and guess why...
The racial makeup of the state is:

• 90.6% White, non-Hispanic
• 0.3% Black
• 6.2% American Indian/Alaskan native
• 2.0% Hispanic, of any race
• 0.5% Asian
• 1.7% Mixed race

http://www.hometownusa.com/mt/

[blackgang]

Yep, and guess why... The racial makeup of the state is: 90.6% White, non-Hispanic 0.3% Black 6.2% American Indian/Alaskan native 2.0% Hispanic, of any race 0.5% Asian 1.7% Mixed race Montana Information - Hometown USA

Sounds racist don't it, but it is also true, so what ya think now.