Japan & WWII (Split from River Kwai tour thread)

[Looper]

Japanese treatment of POWs was atrocious but I think letting off a bomb that vapourises an entire city and its inhabitants in a matter of seconds (and doing it twice) was pretty full on too.

Yes so maybe it brought the war to a close quicker which may have saved more lives in the end but the en masse vapourisation of an entire city and its population in an instant is still a staggering thing to contemplate. I would challenge anyone to visit the museum in Hiroshima (especially on the 6th of August - which is when I went) and not be moved by the horror of what happened.

[terry57]

Jeez, we don't want to get into that as we will be here for ever.

[November Rain]

^ Agreed.

But how long would the war have gone on & how many would have died without the A-bomb?

I agree that that was maybe a step that should never have been taken. I just wonder where, when & if it would have stopped without that step.

[chinthee]

^^Looper, I think you're confusing 'Man's inhumanity to Man' with ending a war.

What the Japanese did in any number of countries, including Thailand at the River Kwai, including China at the Nanjing Massacre, and many other instances, is just unthinkable mass torture and suffering inflicted by many separate Japanese on many individuals. It was truly cruel and unusual.

What the Americans did was to end the war with a decisive strike that was meant to overwhelm and extinguish any doubt in the Japanese resolve of fighting back. That gesture was humane, actually.

Sustained, wide-spread torture and inhumanity inflicted by thousands of individuals and troops is truly unconscionable. That's what the Japanese did.

How can you possibly compare that terrible Japanese widespread ongoing horror with the war-ending bomb????

[EmperorTud]

^ Agreed. If you spoke to many POWs and veterans of the War in the Pacific Theatre many would proffer that two bombs wasn't punishment enough.

Then go and speak to some Chinese and see what they think.

They deserved what they got IMO, no use wringing our hands about it now.

[britmaveric]

Allied Pows were treated less than human - mere tools and discarded once they werent useful anymore. Some of the experiments they conducted were pretty horrific.

[EmperorTud]

We also forget the Japanese mentality of no surrender due to the Bushido Code and one wonders how many Japanese civilians as well as Japanese and American troops would have died needlessly in a massive and lengthy land battle that would have been inevitable without the bombs.

[chinthee]

^I spent over 9 months in Nanjing, the site of the worst Japanese torture and genocide in Chinese history. I talked to many sons and daughters of survivors and a few survivors themselves. You and I cannot imagine the horror the Japanese inflicted; widely, and without reservation, by thousands of perpetrators.

This could have been the most wicked regime the world has ever known. But, then again, this is only recent recordable history. I'm sure there was much worse in ancient times. Even the Germans were more coordinated and centralized in their brutality. They at least 'herded' the jews to their death, rather than inflict torture indiscriminately on tens of thousands.

[terry57]

Some of the old diggers in Australia still hold hatred for the Japs for what they done to our men and women and can never forget.

Anyone who sticks up for the Japs is unworthy of living.

The Thais helped save many Australian lives by smuggling medicine and food to our troops and we will never forget that.

[November Rain]

and one wonders how many Japanese civilians as well as Japanese and American troops would have died needlessly in a massive and lengthy land battle that would have been inevitable without the bombs.

- post#18

But how long would the war have gone on & how many would have died without the A-bomb? I agree that that was maybe a step that should never have been taken. I just wonder where, when & if it would have stopped without that step.

- post #14

Didn't I say that???

[Blake7]

^^Looper, I think you're confusing 'Man's inhumanity to Man' with ending a war.

What the Japanese did in any number of countries, including Thailand at the River Kwai, including China at the Nanjing Massacre, and many other instances, is just unthinkable mass torture and suffering inflicted by many separate Japanese on many individuals. It was truly cruel and unusual.

What the Americans did was to end the war with a decisive strike that was meant to overwhelm and extinguish any doubt in the Japanese resolve of fighting back. That gesture was humane, actually.

Sustained, wide-spread torture and inhumanity inflicted by thousands of individuals and troops is truly unconscionable. That's what the Japanese did.

How can you possibly compare that terrible Japanese widespread ongoing horror with the war-ending bomb????

But why the second bomb?

[chinthee]

^Yes, the 2nd bomb is debatable. You could attribute that to the belief among the allies that Japan would never surrender unless faced with total annilihilation. You could also attribute that to racism.

You could also attribute that to the desire by the US to deliver a decisive final strike, eliminating all doubt about their superior firepower, that was meant to not only end the war, but send a signal to Moscow about what to expect in the coming Cold War. I think it was this...

[EmperorTud]

and one wonders how many Japanese civilians as well as Japanese and American troops would have died needlessly in a massive and lengthy land battle that would have been inevitable without the bombs.

- post#18

But how long would the war have gone on & how many would have died without the A-bomb? I agree that that was maybe a step that should never have been taken. I just wonder where, when & if it would have stopped without that step.

- post #14

Didn't I say that???

No, you wondered how long the war would have gone on for; I pointed out about the Bushido Code and the fact that even civilians would be expected to fight to the death.

[Looper]

I agree that when it comes to sadistic cruelty to captives by captors that what the japs did during WWII and during the occupation of China takes some beating.

The thing that makes Fatman and Little Boy so stunning to contemplate is the sheer scale of obliteration that they wrought in literally an instant. Visiting the museum was a profound experience for me and it comes to mind whenever I hear Japan's involvement in WWII being discussed.

I shall definitely visit Kanchanaburi too since it also sounds like a very moving experience.

[chinthee]

^Yes, you're right, it's stunning the devastation that can occur in a nuclear conflict. I suppose maybe the dropping of the two bombs illustrated to the world just how final that solution was. Perhaps as a result, we've not had a single nuclear incident since then.

As my catholic priest used to say "let us pray."

[Looper]

the Japanese were trying to surrender in the summer before the bombs were dropped but the Americans ignored it

I also remember reading that from a couple of different sources. The Americans were apparently quite keen to get a chance to field test their new weaponry and were worried about the 'risk' that Japan might capitulate prematurely and had to negotiate with the Russians to ease off on their endgame offensive on the other front.

This might also help to explain why it was done twice. Little Boy (Hiroshima) was a Uranium bomb and Fatman (Nagasaki) was plutonium. If the second bomb really was tactically necessary then why not go with a second Uranium bomb since it had been proven effective the week before in Hiroshima. Maybe there was an element of opportunistic experimentation going on.

[Looper]

But, then again, this is only recent recordable history. I'm sure there was much worse in ancient times.

I read that Ghengis Khan would publicly torture and kill his enemies - but that wasn't the fun bit. The fun bit was that he would force their weeping relatives to watch the proceedings and he would sit and study the anguish on their faces as it unfolded.

[chinthee]

^Well, I just watched a special on the History Channel on the Roman Empire. Wow! There was some serious shit there too.

[nedwalk]

But why the second bomb?

like in any stoush mate, once you knocked him down you don,t want him getting up in a hurry..keep him down and he won,t hurt you! this fight was more than winning

[Jet Gorgon]

Unfortunately, the nukes were a necessary evil. Japan would never surrender, and the targets were places with military bases and related factories. Emperor Hirohito refused to surrender until he finally fekin realised the US and the Allies could wipe out the whole country (except Kyoto). Anyway, the Allied fire bombs did more damage in total.
Hirohito was a nasty m-f*cker -- he wanted to take over China and get all the natural resources there. Pals with the nazis and Mussolini. A god in the eyes of the Jpn. Look at the kamikazi pilots, going to their deaths for the divine emperor in the divine wind. Brainwashed lot.

[blackgang]

But why the second bomb?

Well if someone hits you as hard as the first bomb did, you say "UNCLE",, Hirohito never did that, so after Bomb #2, he could not get it out fast enough..

My dad was home when they dropped bombs, he was on leave from the Army and was ordered into New York for transport to the Pacific Theater from Europe as were most troops brought home from Europe, so as you can see there was going to be a lot of death on both sides, so as most that were there at the time,, the bombs did save a lot of lives from both sides and they had planned on having to kill all Japanese civilians once ashore on Japan.

[barbaro]

But why the second bomb?

You need to read at least a few history books.

After that, come back and try to have an intelligent discussion.