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  1. #1
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Euthanasia: Exit Relief

    Dutch doctors allowed to sedate dementia patients before euthanasia injections

    By Senay Boztas
    Sat, November 21, 2020, 2:12 AM GMT+7
    Dutch doctors allowed to sedate dementia patients before euthanasia injections


    The Dutch Supreme Court has updated the country's right-to-die medical code - Mike Corder /APNew euthanasia rules in Holland will allow doctors to spike patients' drinks with sleeping pills to stop them becoming violent before lethal injections.

    The changes to the country's right-to-die medical code come in the wake of a court ruling that overturned a murder charge against Marinou Arends, a nursing home doctor.

    Dr Arends had secretly slipped sedative into the coffee of a 74-year-old female dementia suffer before administering a lethal injection. The woman had reached an advanced stage of dementia, where she was no longer capable of giving any kind of informed consent on the timing of the treatment.

    Critics also said the patient was robbed of the dignified end that euthanasia is supposed to provide. When she had sat up in bed in a bid to avoid being given the injection, a relative had pushed her back down.

    Dr Arends later said that the woman had been asked on three occasions if she wanted euthanasia, and had refused each time. However, the doctor then judged her mentally incompetent, relying instead on her earlier euthanasia directives and the agreement of the woman's husband, who had power of attorney.

    Dr Arends was given a written reprimand by the Dutch medical board over the way the patient was manhandled, and for administering the sedative without the patient's consent. She said the drug was given in an attempt to avoid the woman feeling ‘panic’, adding that it was an accepted practice if done with the the consent of those wielding power of attorney.

    The Dutch Supreme Court has now said the doctor had acted within Holland's 2002 euthanasia law, ruling that if a patient was no longer capable of consent due to dementia, medics had the leeway to decide for themselves when the time was right to terminate their life.

    The court's verdict has alarmed opponents of euthanasia, who claim that Holland - a pioneer in the practice - is interpreting the rules ever more widely.

    However, the country's euthanasia review committee believes that the amendments to its code will give doctors extra legal backing in cases where it is "pointless" to try seeking consent.

    The new code says that in cases where a patient has advanced dementia, “it is not necessary for the doctor to agree with the patient the time or manner in which euthanasia will be given”.

    It also backs doctors putting sedatives in advanced dementia sufferers' food or drink if they are concerned that they will become “disturbed, agitated or aggressive”.

    Jacob Kohnstamm, chairman of the RTE, said the clarification stressed doctors’ reasonable, professional judgement and could relieve fears of prosecution.

    "It’s only two or three cases a year but this might help doctors to have less fear of a penal case,” he told The Telegraph.
    The ruling has been opposed by some Dutch medical practitioners. When news of Dr Arends’ case first emerged in 2018, more than 200 medics issued a statement saying that no doctor should be allowed to secretly sedate patients before euthanasia.

    Dr Jaap Schuurmans, who has researched cases of patients' relatives pressuring doctors to fast-track euthanasia, said: “This freedom has been there in law from the beginning, but the law is being interpreted more and more broadly. Nobody can look inside the head of someone with dementia."

    The Netherlands, which is known for its socially liberal attitudes, was among the first countries to legalise euthanasia and assisted suicide.
    Last month, the Dutch government also approved plans to allow euthanasia for terminally ill children, arguing that it would stop them ""suffering hopelessly and unbearably".
    Majestically enthroned amid the vulgar herd

  2. #2
    Pedantic bastard
    nidhogg's Avatar
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    Yikes. All of that is frankly very disturbing.

  3. #3
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    ...not if it's part of your exit plan...

  4. #4
    Pedantic bastard
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    ...not if it's part of your exit plan...
    Did you even READ the article you posted?

    The woman said three times she did NOT want "euthanasia". She tried to get AWAY from the needle and was held down.

    NOTHING says that was part of her exit plan at that time.

    Dementia is horrible, awful affliction, with many serious issues resulting. But while I support euthanasia as a part of ending suffering, that woman was murdered.

  5. #5
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    It is on the face of it. But read the small print and she knew what was coming and had ticked all the boxes. It was her doctors and her husband's decision ultimately in the absence of her being able to give consent.

  6. #6
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    The woman said three times she did NOT want "euthanasia". She tried to get AWAY from the needle and was held down.
    I'm assuming you have never seen anyone die slowly with dementia then.

  7. #7
    Thailand Expat misskit's Avatar
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    My mom has dementia and makes a commotion when you take her dang blood pressure. Just mention going to the doctor or taking a shower and all hell breaks loose.

    Scary what’s coming.

  8. #8
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    Did you even READ the article you posted?
    ...yes, I did...and I agree entirely with its contents (as difficult as they are)...a point of view you find so upsetting that a red was necessary...with such sensitivity to the subject, I wonder why you even responded to the thread...

  9. #9
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskit View Post
    My mom has dementia and makes a commotion when you take her dang blood pressure. Just mention going to the doctor or taking a shower and all hell breaks loose.

    Scary what’s coming.
    I don't envy you. My dad went through it with my mother and boy was it difficult.

    He refused to put her in to care but he probably should have.

  10. #10
    Thailand Expat misskit's Avatar
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    ^ I’ve a home care agency now. Working out well for the time being. Putting her in care is the last option with all the ‘rona stuff going around.

  11. #11
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    ...^this is why euthanasia should be discussed with the elderly (as an option) in the event severe and unstoppable dementia occurs...

  12. #12
    Thailand Expat TheRealKW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    Dr Arends later said that the woman had been asked on three occasions if she wanted euthanasia, and had refused each time. However, the doctor then judged her mentally incompetent, relying instead on her earlier euthanasia directives and the agreement of the woman's husband, who had power of attorney.
    Jesus Kerist, this is why folks are against euthanasia in the first place. It's a very slipper slope.


    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    It is on the face of it. But read the small print and she knew what was coming and had ticked all the boxes. .
    And she changed her fukking mind!

    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    that woman was murdered.
    Sadly so.

    RIP

  13. #13
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealKW View Post
    this is why some folks are against euthanasia
    ...ftfy...others are against the practice for religious reasons, still others fear death and will do anything to resist going into that good night. Personally, I would prefer a happy drug before euthanasia...just in case there's an afterlife, I'd want to be ready to party...

  14. #14
    Thailand Expat TheRealKW's Avatar
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    correction accepted.

    I still think this story is brutal and very disturbing.

  15. #15
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealKW View Post
    correction accepted.

    I still think this story is brutal and very disturbing.
    Unfortunately dementia is brutal and disturbing.

    The mind that protested against euthanasia was the primitive remnants of the educated woman who decided she did not want that kind of long, slow, miserable death.

  16. #16
    Lone Monarchist
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealKW View Post
    Jesus Kerist, this is why folks are against euthanasia in the first place. It's a very slipper slope.




    And she changed her fukking mind!



    Sadly so.

    RIP

    I agree. Doctors stalking around the clinic stabbing ppl to death. Its like some brave new world horror show

  17. #17
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    I agree
    ...I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with all the other posters: you're a moron...

  18. #18
    Thailand Expat TheRealKW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    The mind that protested against euthanasia was the primitive remnants of the educated woman who decided she did not want that kind of long, slow, miserable death.
    On the say so of one doctor and a long suffering relative, who perhaps was also not in a frame sound of mind.

  19. #19
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealKW View Post
    On the say so of one doctor and a long suffering relative, who perhaps was also not in a frame sound of mind.
    Since it doesn't actually say what her earlier euthanisa directives were and who approved them, you don't know.

    In this case, the judges ruled that by the time the patient died it would have been impossible to establish what she wanted, such was the severity of her dementia that she no longer understood what the word "euthanasia" even meant.
    And her daughter was also involved in the decision.

    ....the daughter of the deceased woman thanked the doctor.


    "The doctor freed my mother from the mental prison which she ended up in," she said in a statement.

    Dutch euthanasia case: Doctor acted in interest of patient, court rules - BBC News

    I put myself in the patient's shoes. If I make it abundantly clear that I know what dementia is, I know how bad it will get and that doctors are to ignore the insane ramblings of the diseased mind, then crack on with it.

    (And of course I await someone saying "We do that already" but let's not derail the thread )

  20. #20
    Pedantic bastard
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    According to what we know, three times she said "No" (she did not say goo goo gah gah, or oranges, or pecan pie). She struggled so much to avoid being injected that they had to drug her - and she STILL struggled while being injected so she had to be held down. However demented she may have been, all that was pretty clear evidence that she did not want to die.

    So, this is a clear case of a non-consentual death. Not really euthanasia, but nearer, at best, to a mercy killing.

    But the precedent here is that the Doctor can decide, in spite of your protests, that mercy killing it is. The only real question for now on is how severe dementia has to be for a Doctor to decide for you it is time for you to go.

    The big problem is that this strikes to the core of our interaction with the medical profession. The overriding principle is one of (informed) consent. This has risen out of generations of medical community (and other institutions) abuse. The Nazi doctors, the TusKegee study, compulsory sterilization of those with physical or mental handicaps, the list is endless.

    The mentally impaired are generally considered to require a higher level of (ethical) consideration, and however it is sliced and diced, I simply cannot but help feel that the doctor should have passed on the proceedure as they no longer had consent.

  21. #21
    Thailand Expat TheRealKW's Avatar
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    Agreed on all aspects.

    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    I simply cannot but help feel that the doctor should have passed on the proceedure as they no longer had consent.
    Was euthnasing an unwilling person really a prodecure?

  22. #22
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    She struggled so much to avoid being injected that they had to drug her - and she STILL struggled while being injected so she had to be held down. However demented she may have been, all that was pretty clear evidence that she did not want to die.
    ...disagree: it was clear evidence that she didn't want to be injected. A fear of needles may have stayed with her even in her terribly demented state. Because of her advanced senility, we don't know if she had any idea concerning what the injection would ultimately have led to...I believe her husband, her daughter, the administering physician and the judge(s) acted correctly.

    Our opinions, of course, don't matter in this case, but if I were in such a horrible state, I would hope SD would give the (pre-discussed) go ahead and hold my hand while it happened...rather than allow me to proceed toward the inevitable wretchedness one decline at a time...

  23. #23
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    According to what we know, three times she said "No" (she did not say goo goo gah gah, or oranges, or pecan pie). She struggled so much to avoid being injected that they had to drug her - and she STILL struggled while being injected so she had to be held down. However demented she may have been, all that was pretty clear evidence that she did not want to die.
    You seem to be oblivious to the bit I posted deliberately in yellow:

    "such was the severity of her dementia that she no longer understood what the word "euthanasia" even meant."

    For all you know, she might have thought they were taking her chickens away.

  24. #24
    Pedantic bastard
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    You seem to be oblivious to the bit I posted deliberately in yellow:

    "such was the severity of her dementia that she no longer understood what the word "euthanasia" even meant."

    For all you know, she might have thought they were taking her chickens away.
    Even more that she cannot consent to it. It is not that difficult a concept.

  25. #25
    Chinese spy
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    The State has absolutely no Jurisdiction over an individuals decision to end their own life. Religion neither. Get out of my butthole.

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