World War II

[barbaro]

This is a big topic.

I've been trying get answers to one question. But many of these replies by historical articles, both past and present, don't agree.

My question is:

Why did Hitler Invade the USSR/Russia?

[Begbie]

That's a very big question and I'm sure there's no simple answer.

1. Hitler believed his own propoganda about the inferiority of the slavs
2. Germans had a historic fear of barbarians from the east
3. Russia was the last major power in Europe. Britian had essentially been neuteralised after Dunkirk.
4. He was no strategist

[barbaro]

What you state is said. And I think there are reasons.

Here's an article Begbie: It's a bit long, though:

Link: New Evidence on the 1941 'Barbarossa' Attack -- Why Hitler Attacked Soviet Russia When He Did (review)

[danbo]

Lebensraum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Was not the East always his target? Remember that the war in the West started when France and Britain declared war on Germany after the invasion of Poland (East) - What if Britain and France had not declared war?

[attaboy]

#3. He proabably thought he wouldn't be fighting on two fronts.

Maybe Stalin was going to backdoor him anyways so he attacked first. I always thought Stalin was waiting for Hitler to expend his troops and resources in softening up Europe and then Stalin would wind up taking it all.

[blackgang]

Patton had the right idea on Russia.

[Boon Mee]

2. 'Germans had a historic fear of barbarians from the east' gets my vote.

[Dougal]

Hitler did not have a peace time economy, he needed constant expansion to finance the state. Having embarked on a policy of invasion of neighbouring countries he could hardly dismantle the military, so further conquest was the only option and having gone as far West as possible the only alternative was to turn East.

He undoubtedly thought that over-running Russia would be as easy as the Benelux nations and France.

[Begbie]

Hitler did not have a peace time economy, he needed constant expansion to finance the state.

Sounds like George Bush..

[Begbie]

What you state is said. And I think there are reasons.

Here's an article Begbie: It's a bit long, though:

Link: New Evidence on the 1941 'Barbarossa' Attack -- Why Hitler Attacked Soviet Russia When He Did (review)

I'm a bit surprised at this kind of article comming from you Milkman, seems more like something Boon Mee would be pushing. Hitler only defending himself against the nasty Stalin.

Without having reams of evidence to hand I'd make a few comments. The Russian army was not in a position to attack the Germans in the summer of 1941 for two main reasons. The first that it had not recovered from the liquidation of the officer corps. The second was that it was still in the process of re-organisation after the disasterous war against Finland. One might argue that if Russia had not received a bloody nose from the Finns they would have continued in their complacency and been totally overrun by the Germans when they invaded.

As for Hitler's claims about Russian buildup and interference in the Balkans, he made a habit of these kind of lies whenever he was about to fall on one of his neighbours. See the case of Czechoslovakia and that of Poland.

It's immaterial whether Stalin intended to attack Germany some time in the future, no doubt he was, but in the summer of 41 he was not ready.

Wikpedia actually has a very good (for once) summary of the Winter War.

Winter War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[sabang]

Whilst some of the points the Link makes are interesting, I don't think this Right Wing German Revisionism is anything more than self serving.

Look at the facts on the ground at the time-
The Nazi War Machine was on a Roll
The Russian army had basically just been humiliated and weakened.in the Finnish War
Hitler believed the Slavs were inferior anyway. He was not expecting stern resistance.
By occupying the eastern parts of Russia, he ensured supplies of two indespensable raw materials for war- oil from the Black Sea, iron from northern Sweden & Norway.
To Hitlers (and probably Stalin's) way of thinking, war was inevitable in the long run anyway- he was virulently anti-Communist. Striking when they were supposedly weakened and unprepared had a certain appeal.

The facts as they stand make sense enough. Hitler underestimated Russian resistance and the logistics involved in such a campaign, like Napoleon before him. He thought the Germany army could feed themselves on the march, from plundered food and wheat. The Russians used a total scorched earth policy- little food could be plundered. Same with fuel, and as the Russian winter descended and supply lines became stretched, the amount of German heavy equipment that had to be just abandoned because of a lack of fuel was staggering.

A major tactical and strategic blunder, that changed the face of the modern world. The resources committed to the siege of Leningrad and the Barrle of Stalingrad is further evidence of the importance that Hitler placed on getting to a source of Oil and iron.

[barbaro]

What you state is said. And I think there are reasons.

Here's an article Begbie: It's a bit long, though:

Link: New Evidence on the 1941 'Barbarossa' Attack -- Why Hitler Attacked Soviet Russia When He Did (review)

I'm a bit surprised at this kind of article comming from you Milkman, seems more like something Boon Mee would be pushing. Hitler only defending himself against the nasty Stalin.

I have no opinion on this subject, but it's interesting. And your following comments about the readiness of the Soviet Army in 1941 are interesting.

I am certainly not saying Hitler was "defending" himself against the USSR.

In fact, I think the USSR was very weak from collectivization policies, and still trying to industrialize.

I just found this article by googling.

I still have no opinion because I hardly know anything about this topic, but I found it interesting.

[Mr Earl]

What you state is said. And I think there are reasons.

Here's an article Begbie: It's a bit long, though:

Link: New Evidence on the 1941 'Barbarossa' Attack -- Why Hitler Attacked Soviet Russia When He Did (review)

Very interesting article MM.

It also perhaps shows how naive most americans were/are about Stalin and communism.

[man with no head]

Is it possible that poor uncle Joe was simply bluffing the West in an attempt to get free stuff from Lend Lease...which would further the aim of taking control of Europe by allowing Russia time to produce even more armaments?

If the crap sent over during Lend Lease was enough to bog down and weaken the Germans then Russia could have used their own materials to push the Germans back and take control of Europe.

It would be like whining to your neighbor that you have no water so you can use his bucket (all along knowing that you really have the water and simply need time to obtain a hose for your own faucet).

Eh?

[barbaro]

What you state is said. And I think there are reasons.

Here's an article Begbie: It's a bit long, though:

Link: New Evidence on the 1941 'Barbarossa' Attack -- Why Hitler Attacked Soviet Russia When He Did (review)

Very interesting article MM.

It also perhaps shows how naive most americans were/are about Stalin and communism.

Americans that read up on history probably have similar opinions of Stalin that Brits and other historicl followers do. (At least this has been the case in my experience.)

Naiive perhaps. In what? Probably about what "communism" is as a whole, being that the American public education system and media considered communism the arch-enemy.

Stalin also practiced his form of communism different that Lenin's New Economic Policy (NEP), and definately practiced communism different than Trotsky.

Was Stalin interested in spreading communism? Maybe in giving some aid, and education.

Was Stalin an expansionist? It doesn't seem so. He never had the chance. And he may have not even cared.

I have been to his hometown of Gori, Georgia. And even visited the Stalin museum. Men still toast to Stalin.

An evil man.

[sabang]

Why is it that short people, like Napoleon, Hitler & Pol Pot usually make the worst mass murderers?
DO they want to stand up and be counted?

[William]

From memory, Hitler set out in Mein Kampf his desire to move East, which included an invasion of the Soviet Union. This is why the Moltov-Ribbentrop Peace Pact completely threw not only the Russians, but also the French. At the time of making the pact, Ribbentrop was said to have known that Germany had no intention of following through on its end of the bargain.

What threw Hitler's plans completely out of sync was the Battle of Britain, which he had expected to win easily. When that did not happen, he knew he would be fighting a war on two fronts. What he also knew was that Brtiain was not ready to fight back - so he thought he would send the boys in for a quick bust-up on the Eastern Front, finish them off nice and quick and then return to the Western Front before the Brits could get their shit together. And he very nearly succeeded, but made the same mistake that Napolean did in not counting on the weather to come to the Russkies aid.

Foolish as the Eastern Front atrtack was, militarily it did make some sense. Hitler's declaration of war on the US following Pearl, however, was by far his biggest blunder. Although Roosevelt may have been, eventually, able to argue to Congress that a declaration of war against Germany was needed following Pearl, Hitler saved him the bother.

[blackgang]

That seems kind of funny, Germany declares war on the USA, and then to make it official I guess, the USA declares war on Germany. All just shortly after the japs bomb Pearl Harbor, and I would think that would have served as a declaration in its self.

[William]

^well, Moltov did get his own back on the Germans, through his now famous cocktail. Which reminds me of when I first visited a bar in London when I asked the barman whether or not they served Moltov cocktails. But maybe that's best kept for another thread.

[mad_dog]

I heard a theory that Hitler was a brilliant politician at the start. He surrounded himself by the best experts and advisers and judiciously chose which advice to follow but as the war progressed he became mad with power and started making his own policies without consultation and everyone around him carried on praising his wrong moves becuase they were a wee bit afraid of him....

[stroller]

Interesting from the archives, I wonder if this guy would be celebrated as a hero now, or as a "terrorist coward":

World War II suicide attacks are normally associated with Japanese kamikaze pilots. But newly-released wartime archives reveal that the British also had a potential suicide bomber among their ranks -- and his chosen target was Hitler.

The WW2 Wannabe Suicide Bomber: British Spy Volunteered to Blow Up Hitler In Suicide Mission - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

[blackgang]

I think that you and your thinking are fucked up again Stroller.

The world was In a war, Hitler was a uniformed soldier in an army at war with everyone else damn near, and even if he was the leader he was still a soldier, so to kill any member of the enemy is not a terror attack.
To go into a country that is not a member of the opposition, especially when no war was declared and there is no opposition, then to go into a group of people and blow your self up, or to fly hijack planes into a building and kill a bunch or civilians is somewhat of a terrorist attack, or to drive dynamite laden trucks into the parking garage under a building and torch em off is a terror attack.
But to kill a member of an active declared enemy in a declared war is not terrorist attacks.
But I can see where you would believe it is because thats the way that all of you members of the peaceful religion seem to think..

[stroller]

Hey, I was just pointing at an article...

But to kill a member of an active declared enemy in a declared war is not terrorist attacks.

So, I hope they'll get Bush and Cheney soon, them suicide bombers seem pretty incompetent, Cheney'd be history by now if I was in charge.
But it's not too laye for the EU to send a sniper team in...

[barbaro]

Here's on article on the Pearl Harbor attack:

Pearl Harbor Attack No Surprise

Roger A. Stolley

Historians are still arguing over whether President Franklin Roosevelt knew in advance that Japanese forces were about to launch a devastating attack against the U.S. Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, on December 7, 1941.
Mr. Roger A. Stolley, a resident of Salem, Oregon, has something important to add to this discussion. In the following essay, which first appeared in the Salem daily Statesman Journal, December 7, 1991, he provides personal information to confirm that Roosevelt not only anticipated the Japanese attack, but specifically ordered that no steps be taken to prevent it. (Mr. Stolley's essay is reprinted here with grateful permission of the author.)
John Toland, the Pulitzer Prize-winning historian who addressed the October 1990 IHR conference in Washington, DC, tells us that Stolley's essay "rings true."

Link: Pearl Harbor Attack No Surprise

[Sir Burr]

Besides invading Russia for oil and ideological reasons, he wanted Germans to colonise western Russia, use Slavs as a cheap labour force and make the place the bread-basket of Greater Germany.

Of Germany's total loss of men and materials in WW II, three quarters of the loss was on the eastern front.