Thread: Brexit - It's Still On!

Originally Posted by Switch

I find it interesting that the most vociferous remainers don’t even have a dog in this fight. Cyril, Snub and PH have no intention of visiting, or settling in the UK, yet they insist on having a go at Chitty, who actually lives there.

A) The whole idea of an internet forum is to discuss issues. If it were based on location then. Chitty, as an example you bring forward, wouldn't be allowed to comment on Thailand, the US, Europe etc...
Quite a surprisingly silly assertion on your part

B) I wasn't 'having a go at Chitty' - please show me where.

Originally Posted by Switch

He sees and experiences the daily effects of Brexit and Covid, but his detractors deny his opinions as if they lived there, or even cared deeply about whatever the outcome might be.

Caring and knowing about something are not the same thing, obviously.

Brexit, irrespective of how you see it is an issue like another that is looked at in facts, figures etc... they don't change whether you're in the UK or not. YOU don't live in the UK yet have commented quite often about Brexit. A tad hypocritical of you then . . .

Originally Posted by Switch

Sad, very sad bored people.

Why?

Originally Posted by Hugh Cow

Hatty does let his Germanic bias come to the fore

I'm an Aussie

Not in this post -you're referring to my comment on Scholz - it merely states that Continental Europeans (as Brits are Europeans as well, let's not forget that) don't want to see Brits suffer and that problems should be addressed, not used as scapegoats to cover up something

Originally Posted by panama hat

A) The whole idea of an internet forum is to discuss issues. If it were based on location then. Chitty, as an example you bring forward, wouldn't be allowed to comment on Thailand, the US, Europe etc...
Quite a surprisingly silly assertion on your part

Surprising?

As usual he's bullshitting, obfuscating and going for ad hom because he has nothing more.

Taxtwat does the same.

And nobody is saying the shortages in the UK are solely down to BREXIT of course. That's just typical binary BREXIT bs. They need to look up the word e-x-a-c-e-r-b-a-t-e.

Contrary to what they'll think, it's nothing to do with what chitty gets up to in his shed.

Originally Posted by Troy

I must say Grant Schapps comes across as a complete freaking idiot....

There is "no shortage of fuel" and people should be "sensible" and fill up only when they need to, Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has said.

It comes as there are long queues and closed pumps at some filling stations.

Mr Shapps blamed the Road Haulage Association for triggering a "rush on petrol stations".

I was trying to make some sense of the 'petrol shortage'. On the face of it, production didn't slow down and consumption didn't increase, so there really shouldn't be a shortage. The problem is that the petrol is not where it needs to be - at the pumps.

When I spoke to UK relatives their opinion was that Shapps was probably right on both counts. First, there is no shortage per se, just a delivery problem.

Second, the RHA and other big business organisations had been whinging post-Brexit about losing staff. That is, lower paid and no National Insurance staff in many cases. The government told them to deal with it, to train people and to pay the right wages. This meant that busineses faced increased costs, which they didn't like.

The result, according to my informants, was that big businesses connived through feeding the press dire stories and witholding resources from certain parts of the supply chain to create a run on petrol at the pumps and the tabloids had a field day. Finally the government was made to look stupid and big business got what it wanted: special visa deals to get lower paid workers back driving hgvs.

Essentially, business played a stronger hand than the government expected. From that point of view you can say that it was mismanagement.

Now the visas are to be made available I suspect that the petrol will find its way to the pumps again. Even before those 'essential' drivers actually arrive to work.

Originally Posted by Shutree

Now the visas are to be made available I suspect that the petrol will find its way to the pumps again. Even before those 'essential' drivers actually arrive to work.

It should be no problem, so long as people want to come over on a 3 month contract to earn a weak pound.

With a load of red tape and the possibility of spending Christmas in your truck in a Dover lay by like last year.

All to take the jobs the Brits won’t touch.

The CBI have been whinging about Brexit since day one, the only real reason being their members ability to access labour in their eyes, but no, the UK has plenty of available labour. Its just that industry and bosses prefer to pay peanuts, all the while getting paid 120x or whatever the lowest paid worker in their company who needs Govt Tax Credits to make ends meet.

The UK like many EU countries has been addicted to paying as little as possible in wages and that requires continued access to cheap east EU labour. So the problem isn't as one of lack of labour, its one of paying a rate which encourages Brits to take the jobs occupied now or formerly by cheap imports - yes it will push up prices but so what? We have all got used to cheap food where supermarkets squeeze farmers and farmers rely on cheap seasonal labour. Its the same story in many sectors. The answer is pay more and legislate to stop the scum running business from deploying labour practices which sees the Govt and Taxpayer subsidise their profits whilst continuing to rack up Govt Debt.

There was always going to speed bumps in leaving the EU and adapting to life outside but that doesn't mean to say that there is not now an opportunity to be gained from forced change in the labour market and the way the country as a whole works. The problem is its easier to whinge than do something about it when you've been comfy for so long - progress doesn't come from stagnation and the UK has spent decades stagnating.

Originally Posted by malmomike77

The UK like many EU countries has been addicted to paying as little as possible in wages and that requires continued access to cheap east EU labour.

A gross generalisation. Fact is that there aren't enough workers for a-z occupations due to the guidelines brought about by leaving the EU. Accept it and get onto sorting it out reasonably and not in a knee-jerk and unfavourable manner as with cyrille's example.

On some points he’s correct…for example the gross inflation of management salaries at the expense of the people doing the hard yakka.

But there is precious little chance of that changing under BoJo. On the contrary - his latest tax plans show it’s the workers towards the bottom of the salary range who will be screwed by the changes in NI and then screwed again by the rises in utility bills.

Meanwhile Jeff fkin Bezos is launched out of the atmosphere. If only it were a one way ticket.

Originally Posted by cyrille

On some points he’s correct…for example the gross inflation of management salaries at the expense of the people doing the hard yakka.

Astounding:

The chief executives of FTSE 100 companies are paid a median average of £3.6m a year, which works out at 115 times the £31,461 collected by full-time UK workers on average, according to research by the High Pay Centre thinktank.On an hourly basis the bosses will have earned more by 5.30pm on Wednesday 6 January than the average worker will pick up across the whole of 2021.

Top UK bosses are paid 115 times more than average worker, analysis finds | Executive pay and bonuses | The Guardian
. . . and that pales int insignificance compared to US figures.

Non-FTSE numbers are in the mid six-figures. In Germany it's less, as it is in France or any other country in the EU. (just from a quick Google search, I could be wrong but I do seem to remember similar figures from a precious discussion.)

This surprises me a bit:

Originally Posted by panama hat

A) The whole idea of an internet forum is to discuss issues. If it were based on location then. Chitty, as an example you bring forward, wouldn't be allowed to comment on Thailand, the US, Europe etc...
Quite a surprisingly silly assertion on your part

B) I wasn't 'having a go at Chitty' - please show me where.

Caring and knowing about something are not the same thing, obviously.

Brexit, irrespective of how you see it is an issue like another that is looked at in facts, figures etc... they don't change whether you're in the UK or not. YOU don't live in the UK yet have commented quite often about Brexit. A tad hypocritical of you then . . .


Why?

I am a UK passport holder, and I grew up there, spending most of my adult life there. It’s still the country where I pay my taxes, and I will eventually return there, where my family still live.

I agree that you can post an opinion anywhere on the forum, but having done that, with or without supporting facts, perhaps one should move on?

I like many others, am not in any position to dictate the future course of governments. Certain biased media, and individuals seem to think they are. I try to live in the reality of that statement, rather than constantly asking for change, or Trump like reversal of something that already happened!

Entitled to an opinion, yes. Permission to change the past events, perhaps not.

This report today makes it clear that BREXIT IS a factor in the UK's fuel problems.

Dougie Rankin also mentions IR35.

Originally Posted by Neo

Self employed and sub-contractors already screwed by IR35 tax rules, where before income tax could be offset by expenses (using the same business model as the rich) now the tax calculation is similar to employed and offshore accounting is closed, so the trades that before would forsake security for longer hours and better income now have no incentive or are forced to do the same job for much less money. I know this because I have friends in the UK running sub contract work and know many contractors from my own background, and its not just the workers, for employers its causing native labour shortages just as many of the cheap foreign labour are quitting the UK, many also affected by IR35. The rules for the rich haven't changed of course.

Indeed, they're many factors at play.
Although that won't stop the remoaners blaming Brexit for everything.

Originally Posted by cyrille

This report today makes it clear that BREXIT IS a factor in the UK's fuel problems.

Is brexit a factor in the shortage of drivers in Poland and Germany?

Look a little deeper than your shallow intent and limited intellect permit.

Originally Posted by cyrille

On some points he’s correct…for example the gross inflation of management salaries at the expense of the people doing the hard yakka.

But there is precious little chance of that changing under BoJo. On the contrary - his latest tax plans show it’s the workers towards the bottom of the salary range who will be screwed by the changes in NI and then screwed again by the rises in utility bills.

Meanwhile Jeff fkin Bezos is launched out of the atmosphere. If only it were a one way ticket.

Interesting article in that font of all things liberal and Pro EU, The Guardian. Heaven forbid, abuse of migrant workers in that multi lingual, multi cultural, and the dream environment of those for whom the cause of European unity is right and just.

Low pay, long hours, broken dreams: working at Europe’s biggest meat exporter | Meat industry | The Guardian

Originally Posted by Switch

Is brexit a factor in the shortage of drivers in Poland and Germany?

Look a little deeper than your shallow intent and limited intellect permit.

I suggest you read again. Yes there is a driver shortage in Germany and Poland but this is offset by using drivers from other EU nations. Such an option is no longer available to the UK.

I can happily report that there is no shortage of fuel at the pumps or empty shelves in the shops in deepest Bavaria.


The IR35 rules apply across the EU as well and I know several people from European countries who have been prevented from working altogether in industries that are desperate for their expertise.

Originally Posted by Shutree

First, there is no shortage per se, just a delivery problem.

It reminds me of the three most useless things in aviation: Runway behind you, Altitude above you, and Fuel not in your tanks.

By ALL accounts it’s considerably worse in the UK than in Poland and Germany, twitch.

There they can ameliorate the difficulties by easily and quickly hiring foreign drivers.

Educate yourself rather than making a complete tit of yourself repeatedly.

You could have just watched the video, but you’re obviously comfortable being serially uninformed.

Originally Posted by Switch

Is brexit a factor in the shortage of drivers in Poland and Germany?

Irrelevant. It is a factor in the UK. Trying to link the two is laughable.

Originally Posted by Switch

I am a UK passport holder, and I grew up there, spending most of my adult life there. It’s still the country where I pay my taxes, and I will eventually return there, where my family still live.

That's great for you, but you have as much information at your fingertips as cyrille in Thailand, Hal in Egypt or me in New Zealand - irrespective of where we want to live one day. Is it guaranteed that you will move back to the UK? What if you don't? Are all your opinions and contributions prior to that ecision invalid?
Arbitrarily drawing a line as to who can have what opinion based on a number of factors of your choosing simply doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Switch

I agree that you can post an opinion anywhere on the forum, but having done that, with or without supporting facts, perhaps one should move on?

And posting non-factual information while living there is in which way better?
Again - a valid opinion based on facts is just as valid posting from Guatemala as it is from Surrey.

Originally Posted by Switch

I try to live in the reality of that statement, rather than constantly asking for change, or Trump like reversal of something that already happened!

Interesting one - where has there been a request or demand for change in this exchange?

Originally Posted by Switch

Entitled to an opinion, yes. Permission to change the past events, perhaps not.

Again, who is demanding that?

Originally Posted by Switch

I find it interesting that the most vociferous remainers don’t even have a dog in this fight. Cyril, Snub and PH have no intention of visiting, or settling in the UK, yet they insist on having a go at Chitty, who actually lives there.

Let's try again - where have I had a go at Chitty?


Also, having a 'dog in this fight' or not is irrelevant in that this is a forum to discuss matters openly. As mentioned previously, where do you draw the line of acceptability in discussing a topic?

Originally Posted by Switch

He sees and experiences the daily effects of Brexit and Covid, but his detractors deny his opinions as if they lived there, or even cared deeply about whatever the outcome might be.

I don't give a fig about China's hurt feelings about anything and everything yet still feel that I can discuss the issue. Obviously I am not Chinese, from China, Xi nor a member of the Communist Party.


Sorry, I think you're wrong here.

Originally Posted by PAG

Heaven forbid, abuse of migrant workers in that multi lingual, multi cultural, and the dream environment of those for whom the cause of European unity is right and just.

Drama much, PAG?

Originally Posted by Troy

I suggest you read again. Yes there is a driver shortage in Germany and Poland but this is offset by using drivers from other EU nations. Such an option is no longer available to the UK.

And I suggest you redirect you condescension elsewhere. Unless you are trying to mimic Cyrille’s attitude.

The driver problems in UK go much deeper than rates of pay for equivalent work. Decades of poor infrastructure to support the C+E driver has had a major impact on the trade. Money alone will not resolve the issue of drivers leaving the role, and starters from joining it.

Taking a smug, I’m alright jack attitude also does little to address the real problem.

Originally Posted by Switch

And I suggest you redirect you condescension elsewhere. Unless you are trying to mimic Cyrille’s attitude.

The driver problems in UK go much deeper than rates of pay for equivalent work. Decades of poor infrastructure to support the C+E driver has had a major impact on the trade. Money alone will not resolve the issue of drivers leaving the role, and starters from joining it.

Taking a smug, I’m alright jack attitude also does little to address the real problem.

Do you ever actually address the substance of a post? All I see is faux indignation and wilful mangling of other’s valid points.

And that’s when you don’t just completely ignore them.

Originally Posted by panama hat

Irrelevant. It is a factor in the UK. Trying to link the two is laughable.



That's great for you, but you have as much information at your fingertips as cyrille in Thailand, Hal in Egypt or me in New Zealand - irrespective of where we want to live one day. Is it guaranteed that you will move back to the UK? What if you don't? Are all your opinions and contributions prior to that ecision invalid?
Arbitrarily drawing a line as to who can have what opinion based on a number of factors of your choosing simply doesn't make sense.

And posting non-factual information while living there is in which way better?
Again - a valid opinion based on facts is just as valid posting from Guatemala as it is from Surrey.

Interesting one - where has there been a request or demand for change in this exchange?


Again, who is demanding that?


Let's try again - where have I had a go at Chitty?


Also, having a 'dog in this fight' or not is irrelevant in that this is a forum to discuss matters openly. As mentioned previously, where do you draw the line of acceptability in discussing a topic?


I don't give a fig about China's hurt feelings about anything and everything yet still feel that I can discuss the issue. Obviously I am not Chinese, from China, Xi nor a member of the Communist Party.


Sorry, I think you're wrong here.


Drama much, PAG?

I don’t follow every thread on here, and I post on very few topics. Others prefer to swamp the site with opinions on every imaginable topic. It is not my real concern, but certain names do appear with regularity on any subject, where such opinions may or may not be valid.

My time is more important to me than to pass comment on subject where I have an opinion, but limited knowledge. My guide to choosing which thread to read is in the ‘last post by’ column.

Certain names come up with such regularity, that I can now tell without opening that post, pretty much what it will contain.
Those with high post counts who fill the ‘last post by’ column are generally to be avoided. It saves me the trouble of reading the same opinion on every topic.

You, Harry and Willy fit the bill quite nicely. This means that anyone so prolific, is now in danger of joining Ohoh and Klondike as posters to avoid. Cyrille now has too much time on his hands, and is in danger of becoming more like Eddie/Mao, with pointless interjections saying nothing.

It doesn’t really bother me overmuch, but thanks for the generalistion of posting style, which allows me to avoid boredom. It was clearly time for an explanation, in order to avoid the repetition of views that are strangling any enjoyment of the forum.

Originally Posted by cyrille

Do you ever actually address the substance of a post? All I see is faux indignation and wilful mangling of other’s valid points.

And that’s when you don’t just completely ignore them.

Thank you for proving my points in post#20996, you stuck up, irrelevant pig. My comment were, for the most part, directed at someone more relevant than you.

^^Another lengthy post addressing precisely zero to do with anything of any interest.

Just vain, effeminate self absorption and handbag swinging.

Have another nespresso and choke another turtle, you silly old porker.

Originally Posted by panama hat

Irrelevant. It is a factor in the UK. Trying to link the two is laughable.



That's great for you, but you have as much information at your fingertips as cyrille in Thailand, Hal in Egypt or me in New Zealand - irrespective of where we want to live one day. Is it guaranteed that you will move back to the UK? What if you don't? Are all your opinions and contributions prior to that ecision invalid?
Arbitrarily drawing a line as to who can have what opinion based on a number of factors of your choosing simply doesn't make sense.

And posting non-factual information while living there is in which way better?
Again - a valid opinion based on facts is just as valid posting from Guatemala as it is from Surrey.

Interesting one - where has there been a request or demand for change in this exchange?


Again, who is demanding that?


Let's try again - where have I had a go at Chitty?


Also, having a 'dog in this fight' or not is irrelevant in that this is a forum to discuss matters openly. As mentioned previously, where do you draw the line of acceptability in discussing a topic?


I don't give a fig about China's hurt feelings about anything and everything yet still feel that I can discuss the issue. Obviously I am not Chinese, from China, Xi nor a member of the Communist Party.


Sorry, I think you're wrong here.

Switch . . . Nothing?

I don't believe you and I have ever had bad words . . . which makes your responses twice as puzzling.