President Donald Trump

**SKkin** · 13-12-2016, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by Humbert

What role should the US play in the world? Militarily weak, isolationist, trade barriers? Without alliances?

So you're ok with the status quo...as long as your preferred candidate is the puppet? "Militarily weak, isolationist" That's the brainwashing kicking in. We could be militarily strong and non-interventionist. Trade barriers...no. How about fair trade and the use of tariffs to keep it a level playing field? Especially for trade with countries that have no respect for the environment in their manufacturing processes. "Alliances" Entangling alliances? Passionate attachments?

peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none

~ Thomas Jefferson

Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it - It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period, a great nation, to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that, in the course of time and things, the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it ? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue ? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim.

So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils. Such an attachment of a small or weak towards a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.

Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government. the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world; so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs, that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat it, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But, in my opinion, it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations, are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand; neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing (with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the government to support them) conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary, and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied, as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that, by such acceptance, it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion, which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

~ George Washington, Farewell Address

Globalism is a trojan horse...and not just for the USA.

Originally Posted by Humbert

Jill Stein?

I think you know better than that. My vote for her here in the TD poll was a protest vote.

**Sumbitch** · 13-12-2016, 06:45 AM

How come when the repubtards win the presidency they also get control of the House and Senate even though the Dems hold a plurality of the citizenship? It's bad enough that out of all the available (non-civil service) positions in the executive and judicial branches of gov only the President and Vice-president are elected by the people and they are not elected directly. All the rest are appointed by the President--two thirds of the federal gov. Thank God all senators and house representatives are elected directly by the people (the House since its inception in 1789 and the Senate since the 17th Amendment to the Constitution was ratified on April 8, 1913)

I love the USA constitution but believe it should be amended to get rid of the EC.

**Humbert** · 13-12-2016, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by SKkin

Trade barriers...no. How about fair trade and the use of tariffs to keep it a level playing field?

The US employs numerous tariffs to protect it's industries. Look up the US harmonization codes. What additional tariffs would you like to levy? The US, China and India are the world's biggest polluters. What is your agrument, restrict trade based on carbon emissions? The sword cuts both ways.

**koman** · 13-12-2016, 07:17 AM

So many against the Trump cabinet selections. He appears to be taking the unimaginable step of surrounding himself with the kind of people who have shown leadership and management skills at the highest levels, and so far has not shown any great desire to appoint tokens in order to have the kind of ethnically and gender balanced team that the Actors union would like to see.

At least some of them may even be the kind of people who will try to get things done instead of dithering around in briefings or engaging in soaring rhetorical speeches at Hollywood functions. How can this not be a disaster.

So much criticism because he's not doing things the way his predecessors did. Not a "proper politician" in fact, and he fails to use the language of pussy-footing diplomats when dealing with other leaders. He actually talks like a real human being which is going to leave many of them speechless and unable to talk back. They are not used to this kind of thing.

The fact that the Donald spent much of his campaign time (and well before) telling everybody that things had to change. He was not going to do things the same way because it was not working very well. This seems to have escaped the attention of the media, and a good part of the population who were far too busy promoting Hillary Clinton and dismissing the Donald as a bad joke. All the graphs, charts and dismissive Hollywood actors on TV talk shows don't win elections any more.

So....he is not a politician and never has been. He is not a diplomat and never has been. He has not yet spent a single day in the White House or had anywhere near enough time to adjust to the new role he finds himself in, but still there are those who expect him to somehow behave like a facsimile of their favorite previous president or something other than what he had kept telling them.

The simple fact is that nobody can predict how this is going to turn out; although there are plenty who imagine themselves to be experts on such matters.

He could be a disaster, just as anything untried can turn out badly, but he could also be exactly what is needed to shake up the tired and broken system that so many have lost faith in. Time will tell, but those who wish him to fail need to give themselves a good shake. Personally I don't (and never have) liked the man but I do wish him every success in his new job.

Failure is bad for everybody, success is good for everybody.....be careful what you wish for.

**Cold Pizza** · 13-12-2016, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by SKkin

Originally Posted by Humbert

What role should the US play in the world? Militarily weak, isolationist, trade barriers? Without alliances?

So you're ok with the status quo...as long as your preferred candidate is the puppet? "Militarily weak, isolationist" That's the brainwashing kicking in. We could be militarily strong and non-interventionist. Trade barriers...no. How about fair trade and the use of tariffs to keep it a level playing field?

Agreed.

For years I've heard many people confuse "isolationist" with "non-interventionist."

They are completely different.

And I support more of a non-interventionist policy.

We can go down a long list of countries that the US have f*cked up, and they are still messed up today (Iran 1953, Guatemala, 1954) and on and on.

**Dragonfly** · 13-12-2016, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by koman

So many against the Trump cabinet selections. He appears to be taking the unimaginable step of surrounding himself with the kind of people who have shown leadership and management skills at the highest levels, and so far has not shown any great desire to appoint tokens in order to have the kind of ethnically and gender balanced team that the Actors union would like to see.

it's going to be interesting to see how things going will turn out,

will they fire them when they fail to deliver or create too much controversies in their jobs ?

**Humbert** · 13-12-2016, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Cold Pizza

For years I've heard many people confuse "isolationist" with "non-interventionist."

Well, we don't really know what Trump is do we? From his cabinet and advisor choices he seems more like a neocon.

**Cold Pizza** · 13-12-2016, 02:47 PM

Interesting article on the Florida Latin vote, and Trump winning the Cuban vote (although by a slim margin.)

About 1/4 Latins across the US support building a wall.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...vote.html?_r=0

FLORIDA

‘We’re Looking at a New Divide Within the Hispanic Community’

The Latino vote in Florida upended the Clinton campaign’s strategy, and what we thought we knew about where politics is headed.

BY MARCELA VALDES NOV. 15, 2016

Chalk it up to a kind of cynical Latina wariness, but I never felt convinced that Hillary Clinton would win the general election. Yet as reports poured in about the historic number of Latinos lining up to vote early in Miami, I felt 100 percent certain that the state would remain blue. After all, Cuban-American members of Congress like Carlos Curbelo and Ileana Ros-Lehtinen had refused to endorse Trump. In October, following the “Access Hollywood” scandal, Ros-Lehtinen called on Trump to withdraw from the campaign. When Hillary Clinton appeared at a Miami concert with Jennifer Lopez and Marc Anthony, a stadium-size crowd showed up.

So when Florida turned red, I was stunned — especially after I saw the demographic breakdowns. Nearly one in three Latino voters in Florida cast their ballots for Trump. According to a CNN and Latino Decisions exit poll, his support among Cuban-American voters was even higher: 54 percent. “Definitely there was a hidden, secret Latino vote,” Jorge Ramos, the Univision news anchor, told me. “We’re seeing a new divide within the Hispanic community. The wall that Trump was talking about is clearly apparent now within the Hispanic community.”

This pro-Trump vote didn’t feel quite as secret to Roberto Rodríguez Tejera. Every day, he told me, people called into to his South Florida Spanish-language talk-radio show, “Contacto Directo,” to express their support for Trump. Rural white voters, he explained, aren’t the only ones frightened by the specter of feminism, Muslim immigrants and L.G.B.T. rights. “For many Hispanic Americans, the cultural changes of the past 15 years have been very hard. Trump, for many, is a return to the mother’s womb.”

While a clear majority of the state’s Latinos cast their votes for Clinton, plenty of others responded to Trump’s hostility toward undocumented immigrants. Every day “Contacto Directo” got versions of the same complaints from listeners: I waited so many years to be allowed to enter the United States; why should others get amnesty? I finally have my work permit; I don’t want an undocumented person to take my job for less money. “Maybe they’re even from the same country,” Rodríguez Tejera notes. Nationally, Pew Research Center reports that roughly a quarter of Hispanics favor building that big, beautiful wall.

**redhaze** · 13-12-2016, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by koman

So many against the Trump cabinet selections. He appears to be taking the unimaginable step of surrounding himself with the kind of people who have shown leadership and management skills at the highest levels, and so far has not shown any great desire to appoint tokens in order to have the kind of ethnically and gender balanced team that the Actors union would like to see.

He has to date appointed Wall Street hacks and 1 percenter crooks across the board to nearly every announced post. Apparently the fact that they are all old and white is what impresses you?

So much criticism because he's not doing things the way his predecessors did.

LMFAO at this nonsense.

He is doing EXACTLY what all his predecessors have done. Installing rich people in powerful positions so they can go about the work of making themselves and their buddies even richer.

**buriramboy** · 13-12-2016, 04:38 PM

So poor uneducated people (ideally black or Hispanic) with no experience should be appointed to cabinet just to keep the clueless retarded libtards happy? Got it now.

**Cujo** · 13-12-2016, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by buriramboy

So poor uneducated people (ideally black or Hispanic) with no experience should be appointed to cabinet just to keep the clueless retarded libtards happy? Got it now.

No, but perhaps people with a social conscience.

**bsnub** · 13-12-2016, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by redhaze

He has to date appointed Wall Street hacks and 1 percenter crooks across the board to nearly every announced post. Apparently the fact that they are all old and white is what impresses you?

Congratulations you have encountered one of the biggest supporters of socialism for the rich and capitalism for the rest. Koman is a dirty bird and the most dangerous of the right. Why? He is one of the few smart ones who line their pockets off the backs of the base. The rest of the drumpf supporters get marched off the cliff with threadbare pockets picked clean by the oligarchy.

**bsnub** · 13-12-2016, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by buriramboy

So poor uneducated people (ideally black or Hispanic) with no experience should be appointed to cabinet just to keep the clueless retarded libtards happy? Got it now.

Drumf claimed he would drain the swamp instead he raised it by ten feet. He completely fucked his base but the lemmings are so programed at this point that Jim Jones is a flash in the pan.

**Maanaam** · 13-12-2016, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Maanaam

Originally Posted by bsnub

What a moron. The world should be very afraid.

Anyone else find it hilarious that he said, "I don't need to hear the same words again" about five times?

From, "I'm smart, I don't need words repeated,.... I don't need words repeated, ....I don't need words repeated, .....I don't need words repeated....", to an off-the-cuff chat with someone who shows the Don just what it is to be presidential and diplomatic.

Exclusive - Barack Obama Full Interview-The Daily Show with Trevor Noah - Video Clip | Comedy Central

**RPETER65** · 13-12-2016, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by bsnub

Originally Posted by redhaze

He has to date appointed Wall Street hacks and 1 percenter crooks across the board to nearly every announced post. Apparently the fact that they are all old and white is what impresses you?

Congratulations you have encountered one of the biggest supporters of socialism for the rich and capitalism for the rest. Koman is a dirty bird and the most dangerous of the right. Why? He is one of the few smart ones who line their pockets off the backs of the base. The rest of the drumpf supporters get marched off the cliff with threadbare pockets picked clean by the oligarchy.

That is one steaming pile of horse shit.

**Humbert** · 13-12-2016, 05:17 PM

Killerson a career Mobil executive who has spent his career making oil rights deals for a global corporation usually at odds with the foreign policy interests of the US. A man deeply indebted to Vladimir Putin and Russian interests who will not be able to put US interests before his business agenda.
John Bolton, a neocon, who pushed the Iraq invasion and calls for using Taiwan as a bargaining chip against the Chinese.
Mike Flynn, a former general in Iraq who has proclaimed that Islam is a political ideology masquerading as a religion. A discredited conspiracy theorist who claimed that Sharia Law was taking hold in Florida.
Trump himself has a thin grasp on foreign policy and will rely on these flawed choices. You thought Bush-Cheney was bad? Wait until we see these guys in action.

**koman** · 13-12-2016, 05:21 PM

So, the main objections to all these cabinet candidates are that they are "old" "white" "wealthy" and generally very successful people who may just know a thing our two about running what amounts to a management team....... Christ I wonder why Donald would do such a thing when he had so many opportunities to use "affirmative action" to bring in the poor, indignant and semi-literate to run things.....

**SKkin** · 13-12-2016, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by koman

generally very successful people who may just know a thing our two

Originally Posted by Cold Pizza

For years I've heard many people confuse "isolationist" with "non-interventionist." They are completely different. And I support more of a non-interventionist policy.

The problem is interventionism is very profitable for a select few. The select few profiteers have a large army of presstitutes and shills in their employ to convince people that non-interventionism is isolationism and unpatriotic.

Donald Trump and team pose no danger to those war machine profiteers. Neither did Hillary and her camp.

**Cujo** · 13-12-2016, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Originally Posted by bsnub

Originally Posted by redhaze

He has to date appointed Wall Street hacks and 1 percenter crooks across the board to nearly every announced post. Apparently the fact that they are all old and white is what impresses you?

Congratulations you have encountered one of the biggest supporters of socialism for the rich and capitalism for the rest. Koman is a dirty bird and the most dangerous of the right. Why? He is one of the few smart ones who line their pockets off the backs of the base. The rest of the drumpf supporters get marched off the cliff with threadbare pockets picked clean by the oligarchy.

That is one steaming pile of horse shit.

You're kidding right.
Look what he's doing. He's not draining the swamp, he's restocking it.

**Maanaam** · 13-12-2016, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Humbert

You thought Bush-Cheney was bad?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Humbert

Wait until we see these guys in action.

Scary!

**harrybarracuda** · 13-12-2016, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by koman

So, the main objections to all these cabinet candidates are that they are "old" "white" "wealthy" and generally very successful people who may just know a thing our two about running what amounts to a management team....... Christ I wonder why Donald would do such a thing when he had so many opportunities to use "affirmative action" to bring in the poor, indignant and semi-literate to run things.....

I think the prime example of Trump's stupidity is putting an oil company puppet who opposes measures to protect the environment in charge of the very agency designed to protect it.

He might as well abolish it for all he cares.

People like Pruitt don't give a fuck about the effects of their pollution as long as they make money out of it.

Flynn is a nutjob, and would be whether he was white or black.

I can see an argument for putting a CEO in charge of State given that he has operated at the level of meeting world leaders for many years, although there are arguments that if he'd had any significant influence over Putin, he would have persuaded him to stay out of the Crimea and thus not put the kibosh on the billions of dollars of deals that were at stake.

If he couldn't do that to protect his companys' interests, why would he be able to do it to protect the nations'?

Ben Carson? Do me a fucking favour. As someone pointed out, he's so far from reality he probably thinks he could solve urban hunger with grain storage pyramids.

So far the picks are either from the very swamp he was supposed to drain or so inappropriate for the positions as to be an actual threat to American security.

As for putting a racist twat like Jeff Sessions into the AG job, well I don't know why he didn't just pick David fucking Duke and be done with it.

**koman** · 13-12-2016, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Originally Posted by koman

So, the main objections to all these cabinet candidates are that they are "old" "white" "wealthy" and generally very successful people who may just know a thing our two about running what amounts to a management team....... Christ I wonder why Donald would do such a thing when he had so many opportunities to use "affirmative action" to bring in the poor, indignant and semi-literate to run things.....

I think the prime example of Trump's stupidity is putting an oil company puppet who opposes measures to protect the environment in charge of the very agency designed to protect it.

He might as well abolish it for all he cares.

People like Pruitt don't give a fuck about the effects of their pollution as long as they make money out of it.

Flynn is a nutjob, and would be whether he was white or black.

I can see an argument for putting a CEO in charge of State given that he has operated at the level of meeting world leaders for many years, although there are arguments that if he'd had any significant influence over Putin, he would have persuaded him to stay out of the Crimea and thus not put the kibosh on the billions of dollars of deals that were at stake.

If he couldn't do that to protect his companys' interests, why would he be able to do it to protect the nations'?

Ben Carson? Do me a fucking favour. As someone pointed out, he's so far from reality he probably thinks he could solve urban hunger with grain storage pyramids.

So far the picks are either from the very swamp he was supposed to drain or so inappropriate for the positions as to be an actual threat to American security.

As for putting a racist twat like Jeff Sessions into the AG job, well I don't know why he didn't just pick David fucking Duke and be done with it.

I know, it's shocking. The SOB has gone and picked out a whole range of people who don't share your views.....and many of them are white and male too.....it's just awful discriminating against people because of age, gender, skin color and financial status.....unless they are white of course....then it's OK.

It did get fucked up a few times because there is at least one female with Indian parentage and another of Chinese descent....oh and there was a black guy in there somewhere....obviously not paying attention to details is he.

It's an absolute disgrace that Trump did not consult Teakdoor before things got out of hand like this. ...

**Humbert** · 13-12-2016, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by koman

unless they are white of course....then it's OK.

Who brought race into the arguments against his choices? Oh, it's you isn't it koman projecting again.

**RPETER65** · 13-12-2016, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by Cujo

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Originally Posted by bsnub

Originally Posted by redhaze

He has to date appointed Wall Street hacks and 1 percenter crooks across the board to nearly every announced post. Apparently the fact that they are all old and white is what impresses you?

Congratulations you have encountered one of the biggest supporters of socialism for the rich and capitalism for the rest. Koman is a dirty bird and the most dangerous of the right. Why? He is one of the few smart ones who line their pockets off the backs of the base. The rest of the drumpf supporters get marched off the cliff with threadbare pockets picked clean by the oligarchy.

That is one steaming pile of horse shit.

You're kidding right.
Look what he's doing. He's not draining the swamp, he's restocking it.

I wasn't referring to draining or not draining the swamp, I was commenting on Bsnub's post alluding to the false impression half of Americans are broke and marching of a cliff. One would have to be living in isolation on a desert island to believe this. Once again Bsnub shows himself to be nothing but an alarmist.

**redhaze** · 13-12-2016, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by buriramboy

So poor uneducated people (ideally black or Hispanic) with no experience should be appointed to cabinet just to keep the clueless retarded libtards happy? Got it now.

If you read my post and this is what you took away from it you are seriously not smart

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