The Boys are Back in Town, 80's deja vu

[DrB0b]

Lot's of people here will find something strangely familiar about the article below. Are we heading back to the days of big hair, Kajagoogoo, and the doomsday clock? Is it that the rest of the world is learning, a-la North Korea, that if they waggle their nukes in the general direction of the west and it's allies that we'll bend over backwards (and forwards) to do whatever they want, or is just posturing and belly-aching on the part of a former big-player that can't deal with its reduced role in world afairs?

"President Vladimir Putin yesterday declared that a new arms race and cold war with the west had begun and announced that Russia would retaliate against US missile defence plans in Europe by pointing its missiles at European cities.

In a hawkish speech that sets the stage for a frosty G8 summit this week, Mr Putin launched an extraordinary broadside at the west over missile defence, Kosovo and democratic standards.

Mr Putin will meet George Bush, Tony Blair and other world leaders on Wednesday in the German resort of Heiligendamm for their annual meeting. In an interview released last night he made his most strident attack yet on western power."


Guardian | The new cold war: Russia's missiles to target Europe

[Boon Mee]

Are we heading back to the days of big hair, Kajagoogoo, and the doomsday clock?

Not sure what 'Kajagoogoo' is but in terms of going back, a General Kraingsak or two running things in Thailand would be welcome relief...

[DrB0b]

Are we heading back to the days of big hair, Kajagoogoo, and the doomsday clock?

Not sure what 'Kajagoogoo' is

Here's a summary of that whole article in pictorial format:

[Little Chuchok]

^pooves or British?

[DrB0b]

Both. And probably the main reason for pointing 20,000 soviet SS-20s at the South of England.

[Butterfly]

Well, Putin reaction is actually "normal". The US has been playing in his backyard with NATO, and with the current nutjob administration in the US hypping all kinds of fears, then he feels left alone in that new race.

[sabang]

Well, America and the UK need some more competition in the arms trade.

[mad_dog]

Russia has reasserted itself by playing hard ball with its increasing energy reserves. The Europeans are begining to become reliant on Gasprom's gas pipelines. Russia needs, as it always has, its Eastern European sphere of influences and the current US regime obbession with "high" power poltics has made the Russians desperate to convey their own power wielding abilities.

[man with no head]

Why are we installing missiles in Poland to shoot down (Iranian) missiles when we have (bases in) Iraq?

[stroller]

Not only Poland:

Bush acts on Eastern Europe missile defense
By Peter Spiegel, Times Staff Writer
6:25 PM PDT, April 3, 2007

WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration has begun to step up its efforts to build a controversial missile defense system in eastern Europe, launching a public push in recent weeks to counter bitter opposition in Russia and to overcome fears of a new arms race elsewhere on the continent.

The move, coming ahead of a major NATO meeting on the project later this month, could escalate a simmering diplomatic issue into a significant international dispute, depending on Moscow's reaction and the administration's next moves in its effort to base 10 interceptor missiles in Poland and a radar center in the Czech Republic, both formerly part of the Soviet Bloc.
...

Bush acts on Eastern Europe missile defense - Los Angeles Times

...
Russian General Vladimir Popovkin, who commands a division of the Russian army in charge of space technology, said earlier Monday that "our analysis shows that the location of the US base would be a clear threat to Russia."

Quoted by ITAR-TASS news agency, he said, "It's doubtful that Iranian or North Korean rockets would go across Poland or the Czech Republic.
...

US To Start Talks On Eastern Europe Missile Defence System

[DrB0b]

Until recently I depised the fools currently running the US government, now, more and more, I fear them. I just can't fathom what they think they're doing. They have no grasp of politics, geography, history, economics, diplomacy, ethics, morals, or anything else except overwhelming greed and blind egoism. Wolfowitz's pathetic and repugnant inability to understand what he'd done wrong after his recent bum's rush from the World Bank being a particularly egregious example of their inability to understand anything but the satsifaction of their own brutish desires. How on earth did these sociopaths ever get into the positions they're now in? I'm starting to believe the more out-there conspiracy theorists who claim they're alien lizard people or blue-skinned anthrophages from Agharti. I can just picture Bush sitting in the Oval Office lowering live rodents through his distended jaws while Rice manicures his pseudopods. They have turned the USA from one of the most admired countries in the world into one of the most hated, they've alienated the populace of their own allies, and now even their own military are turning against them. Who can really blame the Russians for their attitude? It seems, sadly, fully justified.

[stroller]

What I don't understand, is why there isn't a EU policy to keep the yanks out, or at least not let them built further bases which would put us in the firing line of their ill-conceived wars.

[Marmite the Dog]

What I don't understand, is why there isn't a EU policy to keep the yanks out, or at least not let them built further bases which would put us in the firing line of their ill-conceived wars.

Money?

Until recently I depised the fools currently running the US government, now, more and more, I fear them. I just can't fathom what they think they're doing. They have no grasp of politics, geography, history, economics, diplomacy, ethics, morals, or anything else except overwhelming greed and blind egoism. Wolfowitz's pathetic and repugnant inability to understand what he'd done wrong after his recent bum's rush from the World Bank being a particularly egregious example of their inability to understand anything but the satsifaction of their own brutish desires. How on earth did these sociopaths ever get into the positions they're now in? I'm starting to believe the more out-there conspiracy theorists who claim they're alien lizard people or blue-skinned anthrophages from Agharti. I can just picture Bush sitting in the Oval Office lowering live rodents through his distended jaws while Rice manicures his pseudopods. They have turned the USA from one of the most admired countries in the world into one of the most hated, they've alienated the populace of their own allies, and now even their own military are turning against them. Who can really blame the Russians for their attitude? It seems, sadly, fully justified.

I feel the same. It's amazing how quickly attitudes towards the US have changed.

The main problem we are going to face in the future is just who is going to take over the US role of dominant power in the world? Europe is opposed on too many issues, Russia is never going to be powerful enough unless it takes over much of Europe (again) and China is too 'alien' for most of the world to stomach.

Australia?

Haha! Just kidding!

[stroller]

The main problem we are going to face in the future is just who is going to take over the US role of dominant power in the world?

No "dominant power" required, it's undesirable, IMO.
What's needed is balance between different power-blocks.
Franco-Germany and Russia seem to have a good deal of common ground.

[Marmite the Dog]

No "dominant power" required, it's undesirable, IMO.

I have to disagree with that. People need to be led, whether it's by their boss or at the other extreme, by a powerful nation. It's just the natural way of things.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if every country was equal and there was no animosity, but it's never going to happen. One country will always rise to the top. At the moment it's the US (Russia was never their true equal, imo) and before that the UK.

[DrB0b]

Interesting article in the Times Online, an interview with Putin. It's hardly in-depth and reads a little like a sunday-supplement celebrity article but still worth a read.


Putin: I'm a pure and absoulte democrat, TimesOnline



Mr Putin argued that “an arms race is unfolding”, but blamed the US for starting it by quitting the 1972 AntiBallistic Missile Treaty in 2002, planning to deploy missiles in outer space and developing smaller nuclear weapons. He cautioned that “we do not want to use our resources” for an arms race and that “we will find an asymmetric answer”, pointing missiles at Europe or declining to cut conventional forces near Europe. “Of course, we are returning to that time” when Russian missiles were aimed directly at Europe, he said. Nor did he offer hopes of gentler treatment for Russia’s neighbours with whom he has picked recent fights.


“For 15 years we have been subsidising the former Soviet Republic with cheap energy,” he said. “What is the logic?” He had no objections to eventual European Union membership for Ukraine – where Russia cut off gas supplies in January last year in a row about pricing – but he attacked the notion of Ukraine joining Nato. He recalled an old joke about Erich Honecker, the last East German leader – you could tell which phone on his desk had the direct line to Moscow because it was the one with only an earpiece. “This is the way that Nato functions,” he said, “except that the phone is connected to Washington.”


He dismissed as “another piece of nonsense” suggestions that Russia should be thrown out of the G8 for failing to improve democracy as it promised when it was made a member in 1998. “Let us not be hypocritical on human rights and democratic freedoms,” he said in a swipe at other countries, which is his favourite rebuttal technique. “Let us look what is happening in North America. It is horrible – torture, the homeless, Guantanamo, detention without normal court proceedings.” In Europe, he said, “we can see violence against demonstrators, the use of gas to disperse rallies”.


He has regularly acknowledged “certain miscalculations”, and the indisputable point that corruption “is one of the sore spots troubling everything”. But he baldly denied that he had curtailed the freedom of expression, despite recent crackdowns on the media and demonstrations. “If people want to express disagreement, they should have that right. But they should not impede people going to work, normal urban life – then the Government must take measures to restore order.” Given the rise of digital television and the internet, he argued, “even if we wanted to control all of that, it would be impossible”.


He thanked Tony Blair for a “cordial welcome” in Britain in March 2000; in a visit criticised at the time as prematurely friendly, the Prime Minister was one of the first leaders to call on Mr Putin, when he was still acting-president. But that does not, it seems, translate into concessions on the Litvinenko case, and Mr Putin also said, in effect, that he had been looking for a reason to revoke the exploration licence originally granted to Shell.


“Did you see the initial agreement?” he asked. “It was a colonial agreement that had nothing in the interests of the Russian Federation. A real zero.” He added that “if our partners [Shell] had honoured their commitments then we would have had no chance of remedying the situation but it was their fault that they violated our environmental legislation.”

[DrB0b]

No "dominant power" required, it's undesirable, IMO.

I have to disagree with that. People need to be led, whether it's by their boss or at the other extreme, by a powerful nation. It's just the natural way of things.

Oh Boy! This one would make a great thread on its own, you go get it started Marmite while I get my Anarchist links ready

[Butterfly]

Until recently I depised the fools currently running the US government, now, more and more, I fear them

Ignorance and incompetence are far more dangerous in politics than anything else IMO

Australia?

Thailand ?

I have to disagree with that. People need to be led, whether it's by their boss or at the other extreme, by a powerful nation. It's just the natural way of things.

Agree, definitely.

Franco-Germany and Russia seem to have a good deal of common ground

I think France and Germany could make a stronger case of Europe if they could have the UK on board. The problem with the UK is that they are always bitching and moaning about everything and the EU in particularly. I think their hate of the French is blinding them and doing them a disfavor. France would love to have the UK as a strong partner, but instead we are forced into "managing" them because they keep saying no to anything we propose. Germany, France and the UK could definitely bring a strong EU leadership on the world scene.

[Marmite the Dog]

No "dominant power" required, it's undesirable, IMO.

I have to disagree with that. People need to be led, whether it's by their boss or at the other extreme, by a powerful nation. It's just the natural way of things.

Oh Boy! This one would make a great thread on its own, you go get it started Marmite while I get my Anarchist links ready

Just add up how many sheep go in for religion - I think you'll find a majority there.

I can do a poll.

1. Do most people on Earth need to be led?
2. Do most people on Earth NOT need to be led?

I think that covers it.

[DrB0b]

Here's my version

1. Do most people on Earth need to be led?
No

1. Do most people on Earth WANT to be led?
Yes

2. Do most people on Earth NOT need to be led?
Yes, they not need

2. Do most people on Earth NOT want to be led?
No, they want

[stroller]

What about:

Do you need to be led? Yes/No

Does the world need a leading nation? Yes/No

[DrB0b]

What about:

Do you need to be led? Yes/No

Plenty have tried but nobody's managed it yet, my criminal record speaks volumes about that