Our world of liberals and conservatives

[FlyFree]

This is NOT a US thread. This is a global issue. It is a very large subject so difficult to post comprehensively about.

My natural instincts has always been to tend towards balance. As I grew up I started becoming aware that the world I live in is a world of dog eat dog, as well as a world where people sometimes cared for the weak and the disadvantaged, but that it was skewed towards the right. This was just post WWII, and the world was busy rebuilding.

As things improved, more and more time and attention was given to the 'noble' cause of balancing the world, uplifting the underdog. And, as Neil Diamond would say, it was good.

So I started subconsciously identifying myself as liberal.


But soon the problems started appearing. In fighting the various causes, people became just opposite sides of the same coin. Instead of balance, domination became the - maybe subconscious - goal.

A game of details developed. Focus on individual details to win your goal. This of course has a consequence, intended or unintended - I'll not judge. Woods and trees. Boiling a live frog. Great strategy if I am playing a zero sum game. Disastrous if my real intention is to build a better world for all.

Liberals had what I believe to be a very noble cause. But in true human fashion they became greedy and blind, wanting it all, losing their grip on reality.

To both conservatives and liberals of this world I say this; You are a fool if you think you can build a better world for yourself or anybody else by following the game you are playing. It doesn't matter who prevails, you'll end up with a torn and dysfunctional, violent society.

If you are really trying to improve our world, you will step back sometimes and allow others breathing space as well.

My main problem is liberals. Conservatives generally sound their horn loud and clear, and you know what they stand for, agree or disagree. Liberals have become slimey, insidious. They have betrayed the liberal idea.

My message is simple. You are destroying your own and your children's world with this strategy. Think again, seriously.

[Boon Mee]

My main problem is liberals. Conservatives generally sound their horn loud and clear, and you know what they stand for, agree or disagree. Liberals have become slimey, insidious. They have betrayed the liberal idea.

Don't usually agree with you but here you've hit the nail on the head.

[sabang]

It's very simple what is happening in the USA, even a child can work it out by just looking at the numbers, and the trends. The already Rich (and their hired minions) are waging an economic war against the rest of society. Seriously. Thus the trends in debt, social mobility, wealth and income differential, government/ taxpayer subsidies, tax receipts, and tax rates. Not to forget political discourse, and Spin.

Perhaps in other parts of the world you can have some sort of sensible liberal/ conservative discourse, but not there. Conservatives there are absolutely anything but conservative (what few are left are staying out of the discourse, quite probably hanging their heads in shame). Similarly, the term liberal means absolutely nothing- it's just a polemic thrown at anyone or anything that questions a Right wing agenda, or an economic trend. This 'libbie' was the vice chair of a conservative political party (National) in Sydney in the late 80's. So of course, when I'm not a 'libbie', I am a 'commie' or a 'socialist'. The Left are guilty of similar polemic, they are just less relevant because they have had no tangible influence on US politics for a long time. Socialism is basically dead.

There is just no intelligent discourse or debate with people like that. How can there be? There is not even a common language.

I'm a businessman (ex), and that is the way I look at and think about things. Which means I focus and judge on actual results, not high or low falutin' ideologies. These speak for themselves, and I invite others to take the same pragmatic approach- rather than playing with semantics and reinventing language to cater for ones own preconceived agenda, normally sold to you long ago on the basis that you are either a 'liberal' or a 'Conservative', and therefore forever entrenched to stay that way no matter how those definitions are twisted and changed. That's better known as a bunker mentality.

When common sense is thrown out of the window, loonies come up through the floorboards and fill the house with their noise.

[Cujo]

If you were voting Liberal you would be voting for the conservative party.

Originally Posted by FlyFree
My main problem is liberals. Conservatives generally sound their horn loud and clear, and you know what they stand for, agree or disagree. Liberals have become slimey, insidious. They have betrayed the liberal idea.

[FlyFree]

It's very simple what is happening in the USA, even a child can work it out by just looking at the numbers, and the trends. The Rich (and their hired minions) are waging an economic war against the rest of society. Seriously.

Perhaps in other parts of the world you can have some sort of sensible liberal/ conservative discourse, but not there. Conservatives there are absolutely anything but conservative (what few are left are staying out of the discourse, quite probably hanging their heads in shame). Similarly, the term liberal means absolutely nothing- it's just a polemic thrown at anyone or anything that questions a Right wing agenda. This 'libbie' was the vice chair of a conservative political party (National) in Sydney in the late 80's. So of course, when I'm not a 'libbie', I am a 'commie' or a 'socialist'. The Left are guilty of similar polemic, they are just less relevant because they have had no tangible influence on US politics for a long time. Socialism is basically dead.

There is just no intelligent discourse or debate with people like that. There is not even a common language.

I'm a businessman (ex), and that is the way I look at and think about things. Which means I focus and judge on actual results, not high or low falutin' ideologies. They speak for themselves, and I invite others to take the same pragmatic approach- rather than playing with semantics and reinventing language to cater for ones own preconceived agenda, normally sold to you long ago on the basis that you are either a 'liberal' or a 'Conservative', and therefore forever entrenched to stay that way no matter how those definitions are twisted and changed. That's better known as a bunker mentality.

I specified this is not a US thread. We, the world, are sick and tired of the US thinking it is so important, quite honestly.

What you say is valid. However, every action has a reaction. And if that action is invasive and sustained, it will have a strong reaction. The bunker mentality is not an intrinsic trait, it is a reaction.

Which is exactly what I am pointing out. Maybe you miss the point. Stand back.


We can continue from the point we are at, and destroy society. Or we can re-evaluate, and start again. Our choice. But be sure, it is a choice you make.

[Mid]

I specified this is not a US thread.

and yet when a thread address a specific issue you wish to broaden the horizons to encompass all

oh the sweet irony

and btw you DO NOT speak for we the world .

[FlyFree]

^Valid point about I don't speak for the world. My mistake.

You miss the point. Rather than take the cheap shots and devaluing your opinion, read the post. Focusing on individual issues that promote YOUR agenda, Conditions of women in prison rather than prison conditions. One of many threads. Woods/trees. Details. Zero sum game.

[sabang]

Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws.
Mayer Amschel Rothschild

[FlyFree]

Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws.
Mayer Amschel Rothschild

"And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord."
Mein Kampf, Introduction

[jamiejambos]

^ And we all know what happened to the jew ,later. Dont we ??

[sabang]

Being Jewish does not make you wrong- and Mayor Rothschild was and is 100% correct.
Does quoting him make you a Holocaust denier, or a 'one world government' conspiracy theorist then?
Mind you, he did look a bit like a shape shifting reptilian.

[FlyFree]

Just to make it clear, I really couldn't care less. IMHO human nature guarantees that there will be ongoing conflict, acrimony and suffering in the world till the species dies out. I've given up a while ago.

My post is simply saying in a roundabout, convoluted way that this is a Thailand forum and I really can't take it seriously therefore my posts in main will be in that vein.

But there are a few lost souls on here that want to judge and take TD seriously, and the result is half-baked, holier-than-thou attitudes which make me cringe.

If you really are serious, stop being hypocritical, one-sided and blind to other viewpoints. In other words, show some intelligence, or stick your attitude where the sun don't shine.

[mao say dung]

stick your attitude where the sun don't shine.

I suppose it's a good thing that you have followed your own advice, but sticking everything else there, especially your head, doesn't bode well for your judgement or your pronouncements, such as they are.

[sabang]

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
John Kenneth Galbraith

[Boon Mee]

^
Flat out wrong.

"At this very moment, every issue supported by the Left, and almost all of the behavior exhibited by the Left is completely antithetical to classical liberal philosophies. There is no longer a commitment to personal liberty or to freedom. The Left is far too busy to promote freedom for the common man or woman, because their time is taken up advocating freedom for tyrants who oppress the common man; terrorists who kill the common man; and religious fanatics who subjugate the common woman."

Source

Wish Stroller was still here as he used to explain the difference very clearly between classical liberal thought vs what Moonbats subscribe to today...

[sabang]

I'm not sure what the 'modern Left' (whoever they are) thinks, because i never hear from them. Whatever they may think, the facts on the ground are that the wealth differential is at third world levels and growing, US government is foundering in debt and getting worse, and tax levels for the rich are at the lowest levels for over a century. The Middle class, the engine of any modern post industrial economy, has been going backwards over the last decade. Plus OWS is out demonstrating, and it has spread like wildfire.

Those are the facts- and I'm concerned about how best to address the situation, which pretty much sucks. I'm really not interested in writing a textbook about it, or inventing a grand new theory of everything. But if you want to argue ideologies with a 'modern leftie' I'm sure you can find a few at Berkeley or USC Sta Clara booner.

Right now the growth and profit in society is only benefitting a small minority, and that is a pretty obvious problem.

[bsnub]

Right now the growth and profit in society is only benefitting a small minority, and that is a pretty obvious problem.

FACT!

[Cujo]

All those about quotes liberalism and so on from historical figures are irrelevant.
The new left has become the facists and the right the corporate government.
We're fucked either way, whover said we need to find a new way was right.
Society has and will always be divided along the lines of the powerful and not powerful, the rich and the poor, the well connected and the not.
It wasn't that long ago in the grand scheme of things that we were living in feudal societies under the control of monarchs.
Societies are always in a state of flux,
Personaly I like the democratic capitalist system that has evolved over the last century or so but it seems the pendulum is swinging too far back in the direction of the peasants and the ruling elite.
Middle ground must be found if the status quo is to be maintained and the pendulum swing halted.
The cosy relationship between big business and government needs to be destroyed somehow.

[Boon Mee]

After Kim Gaines found a small nativity scene in a box of old Christmas decorations, she decided it would look nice on her desk in the main office at Urbana High School.

Almost a week after she placed the figures on her desk, the school's secretary of eight years said she was called into Principal Kathy Campagnoli's office, where Campagnoli said staff members had told her the display promotes Christianity and that Gaines should take it down.

Gaines obliged and removed the nativity scene.

But then she thought about it. Thought about how the nation's culture had been hijacked by a handful of officious pissants and liberal judges. Kim reached under her desk, flipped open the safety cover protecting the trigger, and pressed it. In a heartbeat every liberal in America was vaporized. Angels sang on high and the US Dollar was the strongest currency on earth.

Some of this story is accurate; some cathartic.

This poster is into the 'cathartic' aspect of the story.

[spudge]

In a heartbeat every liberal in America was vaporized

Fantasising about the death of millions of your fellow Americans? How very patriotic of you..

[Boon Mee]

^
Well, maybe just Hanoi Jane and a few of her ilk would be enough...

[spudge]

Well, maybe just Hanoi Jane and a few of her ilk would be enough...

So, you rooting for your compatriots to die is cool but

Oh, btw, Hanoi Jane sitting on an AA gun rooting for the NVA to kill her own countrymen was Treason of the highest order. Not some little 'silly' thing she regrets today because it's 'inconvienent'...

somebody else doing it is "Treason of the highest order"?

The cognitive dissonance observable in your posts is simply astounding. I noticed that Bsnub calls you a 'tard from time to time but that seems to be unfair to you and 'tards too.

'Tards do it because they can't help it, you seem to do it out of willful, deliberate ignorance for fun.

[Boon Mee]

^
You want to talk about cognitive dissonance? No better example than the fake outrage against H2O boarding of the boys in Gitmo and the continued Drone attacks the Obama administration is carrying on, eh? Don't hear any faux outrage from the Left on those actual deaths...

[sabang]

Hanoi Jane sitting on an AA gun rooting for the NRA to kill her own countrymen

By changing just one letter, I have transformed Jane into a Heroine of the modern Right.

[Minnie Maugham]

Good thread, FlyFree. (outta ammo for ya )
I think this is more of a matter of political power, no? Conservatives are no greedier or generous than liberals (unless liberals/socialists are in office and able to control the people's money (taxes), decide where to make donations on behalf of the people (taxes), deciding on providing entitlements for the folks who can't/won't better themselves (taxes), controlling the people by controlling their healthcare, lifestyles, dignity, common sense, etc, by instituting laws/programs that decide everything for them (also via taxes).
Compare your life at home viz Thailand. Home is likely chocker with rules, regulations, litigation; be nice or else. Thailand: do as you largely please, but you are responsible for your actions: ie, you drive anyway you want, but if you hit someone, you pay now; you act like a jerko in your village, you get shunned, etc.
I don't need or want a govt to tell me where to spend my $ for world charity, welfare, healthcare.
My govt should have limited focus: Keep me safe, fend off domestic & foreign enemies, and gimme a chance to be successful. I'll make it or break it; if I break it, I'll get back up and try again and again.
Yes, I grew up wanting to be successful and rich and generous by my own wits, but others now get so much "free", why bother to donate. Fek off. (Gee, and the lotteries are the richest corporations in the west, methinks.)
The left wants to control, raise taxes and suck in the lazy throngs. How's Greece working for ya?