Thread: Terminating employment in Thailand

^ Watch out for passengers on motorbikes wearing dark sunglasses......

^ Gerbil, to be honest - I couldn't give a flying f.uck.

I've been threatened with assassination in my early days in Thailand & dared the fukk.er to come. I did, however, take some precaution & had a police colleague accompany me - in plain clothes, with concealed weapon. We knew the shooter was in the vicinity of where we need to to business, but he obviously chickened out when he saw my friend. We sized up the lay of the land & spotted an individual on an upper level - he moved when observed.

Interesting day.

On the way in, the bike decided to give up the ghost. I dropped it off at a local bikeshop & headed off to the office per taxi. (No big beef - blocked jets - probably junk petrol, or dirty storage tanks).

Around 14h30 I'm summoned up to the main office for a meeting. I respond that I'm in the middle of something & that they should come down to see me.

The company secretary & his lawyer friend arrive - this time, on my terms. I asked the company fellow (Santi) whether he understood what he had been told by my Government friend on Friday. His memory seemed to be porous - & so I reminded him & his attorney of what had been said - plus a reminder that mobile calls are on record for some 5 years.

I then also directed him to read certain documentation his boss had signed referring to an original agreement - which seems to have magically disappeared. I laid out the total mismatch in their logic & how neither of them had been at the original contractual discussions - only the boss (now strangely absent) & myself, with a secretary to record the agreement.

I laid out everything on the board & explained that I was in the process of going to the MOL to lodge a complaint regarding their trying to wheedle out of their final severance commitments which would not only be breaking Thai Labour Law, but would also be cheating the Thai Tax Department.

Eventually his lawyer was advising him to simply pay in accordance to the law & to leave it at that. There seemed to be some concern about the potential MOL's involvement. To try & claim something after a person has been working in a set way for over 3 years & has only one month ago had an annual visa extension - would indeed require some explaining. The lawyer appeared to understand the implications. I made it very plain that I would take the matter as far as Thai Labour Law would allow & would not back down one inch.

I also mentioned that this kind of thing would not be good for their name, in the industry - bad press, perhaps some TV time - who knows. Most of all, the effect on their customers through my government friend would be the most harmful.

These Thai-Chinese are thugs. The 'boss' is spineless & won't fight his own battles. Ironically, the other Japanese adviser is planning to retire early next year & they will then be left with no international support. Good luck to homegrown Thai technology. They'll be dead within 3 years. Toyota have them on a 4-year short leash - they'll hang themselves.

breach of the Labor Law is a criminal sanction on the directors of the company who are, or should have been, aware of such and, also, on the company.

Not too sure why your lawyer and theirs did not point this out.

Thanks William for your input.

When you say 'criminal sanction', what are the implications under Thai Law?

My government friend certainly tore a strip off this Santi character, who was just being the mouthpiece (scapegoat). I understand he was basically setting them up for a kill & we would then have gone in hard for step 2.

Their attorney was beginning to press & did re-iterate that their position was not defensible, but, I think they initially had thought the falang was uninitiated & had no Thai friends of influence.

A sanction against these folks would actually be against a family-owned group & the particular director would then be ham-strung in other companies he manages.

I think you are kidding yourself about the extent of your power over them and their 'fear' of you...

My take is they'll play along to keep you quiet but you'll never see any money...

come December, if they don't pay are you going to hang around while this goes through the courts...which might takes years...

they will know this so I hope you aren't counting on the 6 months salary to get you out of Thailand...

read https://teakdoor.com/williams-legal-s...8-english.html (Thailand's Labour Protection Act 1998 (English Language version)) and you shall find all you need

William, thanks again - you're sadly missed in Thailand.

Originally Posted by klongmaster

I think you are kidding yourself about the extent of your power over them and their 'fear' of you...

My take is they'll play along to keep you quiet but you'll never see any money...

come December, if they don't pay are you going to hang around while this goes through the courts...which might takes years...

they will know this so I hope you aren't counting on the 6 months salary to get you out of Thailand...

That was rather nasty & unkind, I have to say.

As a falang I have no power over any Thai - we all know that.

The friend who has been assisting, does indeed have immense clout. I'd say that this kind of stuff would not aid their current position in the industry. He assists because I have oddly-enough a reputation for having put a lot back into Thai communities & people who have had no hope. Thai folks have ways of helping people who have been good to them & theirs.

For me, funnily-enough, it's not about money, but about resisting a bully. The money, I cover in less than a month of external consulting. I plan to prepare the MOL lawyers in preparation for potential non-payment & then let them get on with it.

This will be a test of the fairness of Thai law & will be the acid test as to whether I ever retire in Thailand - which certainly does look slim at this point.

In the meantime, I will continue my due diligence in Malaysia & Singapore. My Thai company setup is underway - as a test of the viability within the Thai market. I chalk this all up to experience.

Originally Posted by watterinja

That was rather nasty & unkind, I have to say.

Sorry Watters: it was not meant to be nasty...

just my feeling that you were being a tad optimistic in successfully taking on the 'system'...

and also having the feeling that your boss might also have 'a big man' somewhere in the wings...they usually have...

this of course is a public forum and you have to expect some people to have a different take on things than you do...appreciated the green though when it could well have been a red!

cheers

KM

^KM, I think from all that I have heard, that although in other legal things in Thailand, there is skullduggery and the Thai wins, in the Ministry of Labour, things are a bit different and they do insist on the labour laws being upheld.

Much more than in other disputes between people of power and the relatively powerless in Thailand.

Sounds like you are going to get shafted. As you pointed out Chinese-Thais are cnuts. Had plenty of dealing with them myself. Its about brain-drain for as little money as possible.

If I were you, I would leave now. Just stop going....immediatley.

How they gonna replace you?

That would fcuk them more than it fcuks you. Like you say, external consulting earns more in one month than 6 month working for these wankers.

Its like cutting off your nose to spite your face, but it will be the best way to shove two fingers up in the air at these assholes.

^ Been a hard day. Lots happened - too much to waste space on.

I wrote up a letter taking official leave of absence, citing the intention of pursuing legal action against the company for breach of contract & avoidance of due severance. I referred to each & every conversation, meeting & document - time, place, persons present & outcome. This was delivered to the company secretary in the presence of witnesses. I then look my leave.

I'm off home for the weekend & plan, next week, to discuss the matter with my government friend & will suggest that we use it an academic test case to study Thailand's current attitude towards foreign advisers & to test the law itself. I expect that we will appoint the necessary legal personnel & leave the matter with MOL.

Simply put, this will be an interesting case for potential foreign investors. I plan to list the outcome either way on a public site - page, for page - translations & everything - once matters have been settled.

Time for the bigger folks to show & tell. Either way, Thailand will bare it's heart. It will be an interesting academic exercise.

Personally, I have now distanced myself from the whole affair - it is up to Thailand to save its face. This scenario will be put to Mr. Export for his wisdom. He may not think it a good idea for the website, for instance. Since he has now also been affronted by this company, he will also probably want to shake things around a little.

It's showtime - as they say.

Many of the folks at the company were in tears & when I went to shake hands with the remaining management (the MD had run away) & say goodbye, all expressed sadness that Khun Suchai Pongvatnanusorn (Managing Director, CH Watanayont Co., Ltd) was being a total arsehole. They were trying to keep their jobs.

Anyway, I've got other business to get on with. Let's see what Thailand considers to be fair.

I have no desire nor intent to get into a slagging match with you - but who are you using for lawyers?

You have so many mixed issues here - when the issue is so straightforward.

For example, Mr. Export only gives a shit if (a) they are BoI certified and the terms of that have been breached, which is unlikely in your case; (b) there's some form of BoI fraud - and even here it is likely to be a Tax issue.

Frankly you are looking at your legal issues from a Western point of view - and always have done. IME, if I went to Department A and said Department B had done something improper, Department A would have said "don't give a fuck, see B".

In short, the answer to your problem is this:

Did/or are your company breach[ing] the Labor Laws?

If the answer is yes, then you go to the Labor department - period.

On a side note, if you are in Thailand on a Non-Imm B, and you walked off the site today you have actually fucked yourself. You now have 7 days, including today, to leave Thailand - which your boss/company may already know. Trying to instigate a law suit from outside Thailand will not be easy - although doable.

Sounds to me like you are either getting some really crap legal advice, or you are a lawyers worst nightmare and do what you think is right rather than what you are being advised is right.

Either way mate, it is you who is now on rather sticky grounds [assuming you are on a Non-Imm B] - as all they need to do is make one phone call to Immigration.

Thanks William,

I did not walk off site - I clarified in the letter that I was off to get legal advice & was taking leave of absence - actually well due over the past 3 years. There were clear reasons for my actions & it was pretty unpleasant - actually I was more concerned about the effect on the Research team & the general unpleasantness. The last stated date was due to be end December 2007. If the Thai's choose to screw me in this way & my attorney's cannot manage - what else to do?

Basically, I'm happy to fly in/out for a month, or so - if necessary -
until I sort out a company-based visa.

Failing that, I really am more interested in being able to settle some international business research work during the next few months - really just a stable base - & then I'll leave & go home. I'm sick of this place & its corruption. It'll be hard on loved ones, but, I guess when a country works this way, it's not the place to be staying.

Thanks for your assistance.

^ Further to my note, William.

I now have a meeting planned with my government friend tomorrow morning. I've mentioned the situation briefly & that I would like to set things along a correct path.

I'll also ask him to assist with getting me down into Labour & how to manage the visa issues - given the apparent seriousness of the situation. If the advice is to cross a border, then I can do this, on the weekend, no problem - I'll be 10 minutes from the Mee Nam Kong River.

Anyway, I'll ask him to manage the situation & get the necessary clarity on the validity of the current extension etc. The current WP is in my possession & I am of the understanding that the 7 days is timed from when it is returned to Labour.

The way I feel at the moment, is that I'm really just wanting to get out of this hell-hole as fast as I can - the only problem being is that I have others depending on me. I've had enough of this kind of stuff - I really just have to balance a little carefully more for stability of my offshore work than anything else.

Let's see where it all goes.

Originally Posted by watterinja

I'm off home for the weekend & plan, next week, to discuss the matter with my government friend & will suggest that we use it an academic test case to study Thailand's current attitude towards foreign advisers & to test the law itself. I expect that we will appoint the necessary legal personnel & leave the matter with MOL.

It sounds like a pointless exercise, you know already the outcome, why bother ? a bit like giving your hand to a street dog and expecting him not to bite. A bit naive don't you think ?

Originally Posted by watterinja

Simply put, this will be an interesting case for potential foreign investors. I plan to list the outcome either way on a public site - page, for page - translations & everything - once matters have been settled.

Frutile exercise, there are thousands of cases like yours already pending, and I am sure others have put up websites to tell about it, without success. Do you really want to be sucker # 999,9999,9999 ?

Originally Posted by watterinja

Personally, I have now distanced myself from the whole affair - it is up to Thailand to save its face.

Come on, you are not being serious here ? on what ground your story should have Thailand save its face ? a bit ridiculous no ?

Seriously, cut your losses, and fuck off to a real country if you are serious about your ideas, it's the only way. This country is one big fucking joke, you should know it by now.

^ I know you're correct Butterfly.

My plans for investigating Singapore & Malaysia early next year are still in place. The missus would also be happy to get away from here - she's been through much of this rubbish with me & knows the score.

I know you're right.

-----

I really just want to stabilize the ship for a few months, if at all possible, so that I can get some important offshore research work completed. I need until around end April, at most.

Had a conference call last evening from the US where things have begun to come to the boil on using my new research in high-tech products. The comparative sum of USD30 million was used as the opposition benchmark. Our team probably have less than this to spend, but last evening's call was whether I'd be happy to work in with building a team to fly these new ideas. I'm just really not in a position to land in a friggin' Thai jail at the moment - let me get my plans set & the let them go to hell.

Anyway, I also owe it to some of my Thai friends who've been supportive over the years to at least settle the ship properly in the short term.

At worst, I wanted to set up a few items of test apparatus to build samples - I need a garage & power to do that. It does seem that Thailand may not even be able to offer that.

Get a B visa, stay in Thailand and do the visa run every 3 months, problem solved

Work from your apartment in Bangkok for your overseas clients, problem solved

get rid of that work permit, it's a liability, not an asset

it all seems really simple, not sure why you are trying to stir the snake hole

^ That is ALL currently in progress.

The ONLY stumbling block is that in order to align the audit period to the company start, official registration has to occur in January 2008 - so as not to incur a December audit on a brand-new startup.

My vulnerable period is really only from now until all the company paperwork is ready for me to go down & get the new B-visa. I was hoping to smoothly just work things off, but the local company began harassing & victimizing me to distraction - you have no idea.

I'm pretty worried about having this 7-day wp cancellation thing & suddenly finding I'm running foul on my current extension - which is valid until Sept 2008. I've been assured that Labour & Immigration don't communicate well & that things should not be a problem.

But, as you know, TiT & William scared me shitless...

^ something doesn't add up in your story or maybe you are not explaining correctly.

What has the company setup has anything to do with your Thai B visa ? are you planning to setup a company in Thailand for your project ?

You can get a B visa, from any company, just ask one of your buddy from overseas to write the "letter" for you and that will get you a visa for 1 year. You don't need a letter from a local company to get a VISA, this will actually get you in trouble if you do.

if your company is offshore, there is no audit, so that doesn't make any sense. Also you can setup a company anytime and set the first fiscal year for more than 1 year. So not sure what you are putting yourself into more trouble than there is.

That WP thing is nasty, I wouldn't take any chance.

^ BF, I see where you're coming from - you're setting up a Non-Imm B via a company located offshore. I'm not currently employed offshore - I work as an independent consultant. Anything else would be fraud - no?

I'm talking about setting up a legitimate company of my own in Thailand. This also allows a 1-year 90-day exit/re-entry visa. Practically, I'd only need to do this for 2 years, as I'd be at retirement age after that - unless I'd moved out before that. My local company setup was really to set a legal base here, so that I could test the waters properly under my own steam & run up some experiments without too many prying eyes.

An alternative could be to establish a company offshore in the Channel Islands - but, this would be more for the future.

Are we on the same page?

Also you can setup a company anytime and set the first fiscal year for more than 1 year.

This, I did not know. If that is the case here, then they can move immediately & set the first fiscal year accordingly. I'll follow up on that tomorrow.

^ You really need to get yourself a proper lawyer as you really are getting yourself confused and they would be able to take care of everything for you and advise you on the best way forward.

Mr Export might be a big shot, but he's worthless if he doesn't know the law (which it seems he doesn't) or use a good lawyer himself.

Good luck.

^ MtD, point taken.

The plan for tomorrow's meeting is to set the legal stuff in motion. These Thais always like to try & sort things out in a tribal way amongst themselves first - kind-of, my dad's bigger than yours, kind of stuff. My family attorney (a Thai Christian) advised this method though Mr. Export in terms of basically settling things amicably & this did appear to have been the case last week.

What has gone down this week is that the local company MD is over-riding the agreements made last week & even his own internal lawyer's advice - & has been escalating things to the point of a legal solution. I've been trying to follow the Thai advice, but we all know that things now need to move beyond that.

Even the other company bosses are wishing it would all settle down & people begin to talk it through. The MD has turned into an utter bully & is actually not well liked amongst his family, & in the wider community. For instance, Chula University will not even talk to him due to previous sour dealings. He has fast made a bad name for himself.

I believe that, in the end, right will prevail - whether in terms of financial compensation, or otherwise. It always has come back in my life - in the end. The fact is, when people screw others unfairly, especially in the small world of automotive engineering, the word gets around & these guys will have the rug pulled out from under them. Toyota will pull the plug within the next 3-odd years.

That doesn't help my pocket for now, but, you know, after the call I had from the US last evening, the size of this potential loss is really not that big a deal - merely a temporary inconvenience.

I'm more worried, frankly, about having a stable place to stay for the next few months - I've enough funds to carry me for a fair while & that is fine, for now.

Part of what always makes things so difficult for me is my personal ethics. I prefer to avoid court & legal issues, in preference to arbitration - if at all possible. This has sometimes cost me a bundle in previous years - but, oddly-enough it's often come back fairly quickly. As Christians we are taught not to rush to court, but to try & settle as far as possible through discussion & peaceful means.

I know it sounds odd - it sometimes becomes a real internal conflict.

Originally Posted by watterinja

As Christians we are taught not to rush to court, but to try & settle as far as possible through discussion & peaceful means.

And that's what a good lawyer will try to do, but he knows the law and can lay it all out in black & white, putting the ball in the company's court.