Fundamentalist ?? How to define them.

**Dalton** · 02-04-2008, 07:46 PM

Then you'll find that I am not a fundamentalist.
IMO, anyone who adheres to five fundamentals (same as the ten commandments) of Islam is a fundamentalist.

1. There is no god except God
2. Prayers (includes prayers for well being of humans regardless of their race/religion)
3. Charity (helping poors financially)
4. Fasting (abstinence from sin)
5. Hajj (devotion to God and asking for forgiveness)

Now I do adhere to all of them. You can call me a fundamentalist if you will. I don't see anything wrong with believing in existance of God, praying for well being of humans, helping poor, abstaining from sins and devotion to God (which is doing good deeds).
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Following the five rules doesn't make anybody a fundamentalist IMO, personally I don't agree with them (except no 3) but that's just me, a none-believing Dane..

The problem is that muslims are so different in how to read and understand what the koran says, there is a counter for almost any of the rules in there, and on top of that, there is a huge gap between the Suni and the Sharia muslims.
However, to me "nearly" all muslims are fundamentalists, because they are not doing enough to silent the violent voice there keeps spreading cancer out in the public, they are using any chance they can to hit the front-page in the news, and that gives the average Joe the impression that anything related to Islam is pure evil.

**November Rain** · 02-04-2008, 07:59 PM

Fundamentalist means one who adheres to the fundamentals. Now I wouldn't know the fundamentals of Islam, but I assume the above quote comes from Macha? And he would know.

I disagree very strongly with most of your post, Dalton. I think most Muslims are nice law-abiding people trying to live their lives and practice their faith. I think the Western media focuses very much on the bad things in life and breeds sensationalism & fear (I also think that plays into certain Western Govts hands). If you believed Western media, you would believe that paedophiles are everywhere & children aren't safe anywhere. You'd believe that, as a woman, you were going to be sexually assaulted or raped someday. You'd believe that all youngsters are evil & that Thailand is a dangerous place where you will get stung by a scorpion, or murdered by your lady for money - and they're all prostitutes, BTW!

Some of these things are true for some people, but they are not nearly as prevalent as the media would have us believe. Neither are most Muslims the way the media would portray them. But, that's just my opinion.

**Dalton** · 02-04-2008, 08:04 PM

^ Take a cold shower NR, we are talking about muslim fundamentalist and how to define them, this is not a crusade against Macha in any way, and I'm pretty sure that he knows that.

**November Rain** · 02-04-2008, 08:10 PM

I wasn't saying it was a crusade against Macha. I was stating my genuine opinion that the Western media sensationalise & overemotionalise everything. I guess fear sells. That's just my opinion. I don't see why the average Muslim has to be vocal against those that are overzealous to the point of 'spreading cancer'. By birth I'm a Christian (not practicing). I don't think I've ever started a protest against the Catholic Church or bishops I disagree with (& I disagree with a lot of what they do). I don't see why you expect more of Muslims than we would be willing to do re Christianity?

**Dalton** · 02-04-2008, 08:20 PM

^ How many suicide bombers are christians ?? How many muslim women dont have the same rights as men ?? I can go on forever but what's the point ?? Dont for a second believe that I'm defending the christians, cause that aint the case. I'm just amazed about the number of people who believe in this fairytail about god.

**machangezi** · 03-04-2008, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Dalton

The problem is that muslims are so different in how to read and understand what the koran says, there is a counter for almost any of the rules in there

There's only one rule! Put the verse in historical context.

and on top of that, there is a huge gap between the Suni and the Sharia muslims.

One major difference between Shia and Suni Muslims. Shia Muslims say that Ali was the first caliph where as Suni Muslims say he was the fourth caliph.

However, to me "nearly" all muslims are fundamentalists, because they are not doing enough to silent the violent voice

Can you suggest how a Muslim like myself go about doing that? I have always condemned the actions of Al Qaeda here on this forum and tens of other forums. I also write to some Muslim newspapers every now and then about the same issue(s).

they are using any chance they can to hit the front-page in the news, and that gives the average Joe the impression that anything related to Islam is pure evil.

NR has answered this anyway.

**machangezi** · 03-04-2008, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Dalton

^ How many suicide bombers are christians ??

What does a suicide bomber do? Kill people? This discussion is never ending if we start comparing these aspects mate.

To me a suicide bomber is a person who's ready to kill (killing is the motive). How many Christians have been killed by Muslims? How many Muslims have been killed by Christians? Let's not get in to this aspect please.

How many muslim women dont have the same rights as men ??

What rights are we talking about, Dalts?

Muslim women can shake hands.

Muslim women can become a fighter pilot.

By the way, she's me relative.
What else Dalts?

Dalts, my aunt lives in Denmark! Her two sons are doctors. One of them is married and his wife's a doctor too.

**DrB0b** · 03-04-2008, 12:24 PM

The problem is one of terminology. A fundamentalist believes in the fundamentals of their religion. A Christian fundamentalist believes in the literal word of the bible, that does not automatically make him somebody who bombs abortion clinics, a Muslim fundamentalist believes in the basic tenets of Islam, specifically the five pillars of Islam;

Faith or belief in the Oneness of God and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad;
Establishment of the daily prayers;
Concern for and almsgiving to the needy;
Self-purification through fasting; and
The pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able.

The people who bomb and kill, and who preach bombing and killing are not fundamentalists, they are not Salafi's, they are not Jihadis, they are not even real Muslims, they are heretics. Some understanding of how these people came to be is required to understand why they are heretics. In the 1950's and 1960's the primary intellectual behind the current murderers and criminals, Sayyid Qutb, an Egyptian, came up with the concept of "Takfir", this can be translated into Western religious terms as "anathema'. It basically stated that anybody who did not follow his particular brand of Islam was not a genuine Muslim and this laid the foundation for the killing of Muslims who did not subscribe to his philosophy. His reasoning was flawed and was not based on the Quran or on accepted hadith but on the interpretations of certain obscure medieval scholars. His philosophy was the driving force behind the GIA, an Algerian terrorist group, who murdered millions of Algerian muslims in the 1990s. This is one reason why the preferred term for groups like AQ is Qutabis rather than fundamentalists, another reason is that these groups hate being described this way as it makes it obvious that their actions are not based on Islam itself but on the writings of this man.

The second major influence, and the "father" of all the "Jihadi" groups today, is Abdullah Azzam, formerly a professor at the Al-Azhar University in Cairo he came under the influence of Sayyad Qutb and was an associate of both Qutb's family and Ayman Al-Zawahiri. He devised a philosophy which stated that personal Jihad was a sixth pillar of Islam. This is an outrageous heresy and if clearly understood is enough to mark him and his followers as non-Muslims. Life in Egypt becoming dangerous for him he moved to Jordan, from which he was eventually expelled and then moved to Saudi Arabia. In Saudi he resumed his academic life and was the teacher of, among others, Osama bin Laden.

On the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan he drafted a fatwa, On the Defence of Muslim Lands, where he stated that it was "Fard Ayn", a binding obligation, on every muslim to fight anybody who invaded a Muslim land and to kill "Kuffrs", non Mulims (which he interpreted through the Takfiri ideology), this Fatwa was accepted by the the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and endorsed by the Saudi Shura with the phrase "We see no fault in this, Brother". This fatwa does not contain a single reference to the any Quranic justification for his view and mentions only one Islamic scholar, a medieval firebrand who had otherwise been almost entirely forgotten. Azzam was one of the founders of Al Qaeda and gave the organisation it's name, it was originally a religious and logistic support group for Mujihadeen called Al-Qaeda As Subbah, The Solid Base.

Azzam's slogan was ""Jihad and the rifle alone: no negotiations, no conferences and no dialogues", with this and his fatwa he persuaded thousands of people to fight in Afganistan where they were indoctrinated in his perverted version of Islam.

These people are no real threat to the west and never have been, they are a danger to all normal Muslims and have already killed millions of them. The Western idea that they are "Fundamentalists" is only aiding and abetting them and it's a description they relish. They are Qutabi's, Takfiri's, and heretics, and they should be treated as such if they are to be controlled or defeated.

**machangezi** · 03-04-2008, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Machangezi

How many suicide bombers are christians ??

This is a very annoying question that always pops up and the answer is to use your own brain and see what is going on around the world. I mean, I don't wanna start about Israel because that topic is being discussed in an other thread, most Muslims feel Palestinians are ill-treated by Israel and the western world. I also feel what Israel is doing is wrong but I don't believe blowing things up can bring a change. This is the only difference between a moderate and a extremist Muslim (as they say).

Originally Posted by Dalton

However, to me "nearly" all muslims are fundamentalists, because they are not doing enough to silent the violent voice there keeps spreading cancer out in the public

There are many other reasons, political reasons, that drive young Muslims from villages towards violence and it is far beyond a common Muslim to change anything now because both sides, the west and the extremists, are not ready to listen to any one.
A very recent example is Geert Wilders movie about Islam. Now this video suits both parties (the west and the extremists), The extremists take the video, translate it in their native languages and give birth to another 100 extremists. The west and the media goes on and on pointing towards the trouble makers.

Now my question, Dalton, is that how can a normal Muslim stop such groups?

**November Rain** · 03-04-2008, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by machangezi

Now my question, Dalton, is that how can a normal Muslim stop such groups?

Exactly!

**Dalton** · 03-04-2008, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by machangezi

There's only one rule! Put the verse in historical context.

Bollox Macha, you see it that way, many other muslims don't....And you very well know that..

Originally Posted by machangezi

One major difference between Shia and Suni Muslims. Shia Muslims say that Ali was the first caliph where as Suni Muslims say he was the fourth caliph.

And that difference is enough to hate and kill eachother ?? Sounds pathetic to me through.

Originally Posted by machangezi

Can you suggest how a Muslim like myself go about doing that? I have always condemned the actions of Al Qaeda here on this forum and tens of other forums. I also write to some Muslim newspapers every now and then about the same issue(s).

According to the moderate muslims it's only 5 to 10% of the people who believe in Islam, there are extremist and rather violent, that is 120 million people we are talking about, so if the remaning 1,08 billion cant put them in the right place, then somebody else have to do it....unless they grow some balls.

**Dalton** · 03-04-2008, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by machangezi

Muslim women can shake hands.

She is lucky that the mob don't beat her up for showing to much skin.

Originally Posted by machangezi

Muslim women can become a fighter pilot.

Is she from Saudi ??? If I'm not mistaken women are not allowed to drive a car there...Please dont try and twist the subject, women are miles behind men in the muslim world.

**Dalton** · 03-04-2008, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by November Rain

Exactly!

Are you planning to join a harem ???

**Dalton** · 03-04-2008, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by machangezi

Now my question, Dalton, is that how can a normal Muslim stop such groups?

Eliminate them, there's no other choice, debate and peace talks wont help a bit.

**Dalton** · 03-04-2008, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by machangezi

Dalts, my aunt lives in Denmark! Her two sons are doctors. One of them is married and his wife's a doctor too.

How do they survive ?? Are they not boy cutting Danish products as well

**November Rain** · 04-04-2008, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by Dalton

Originally Posted by November Rain

Exactly!

Are you planning to join a harem ???

No. I'm not planning on giving up alcohol or pork, either. Or praying 5 times a day.

Same as I'm not planning to start going to Midnight Mass, confession or Holy Communion.

Or shave my head, wear white & become a Buddhist nun.

I'm not a religious person. However, I don't see why the many who are practicing Muslims should get tarred with the same all-encompassing brush as some zealots who many of them don't agree with.

As for the 'if they don't agree, then they should do something' argument. That's all very well in a storybook, but not in real life. History has shown that. Just what do you think someone like Macha can do, beyond what he does? And, no, it's not a crusade against him. I realise that, I'm using him as an example because he has stated he speaks out on internet forums & has written to newspapers. What else would you expect him or others like him to do? People have their own lives to lead - jobs, family, friends, hobbies etc, as well as their faith. Are they really supposed to give up everything else in their lives in an effort to bring down the few?
Maybe it's more realistic for us to realise that it is proportionally few that are suicide bombers or involved in other acts of terrorism & stop demonising all Muslims.

**Dalton** · 04-04-2008, 09:20 AM

^ I'm not asking Macha to solve the problem, but the muslims should clean out the trash in there back yard and move on with the peace-full way of life.

**machangezi** · 04-04-2008, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Dalton

Bollox Macha, you see it that way, many other muslims don't....And you very well know that..

Anyone who doesn't care to go through the historical context is wrong. Simple.

Originally Posted by Dalton

And that difference is enough to hate and kill eachother ?? Sounds pathetic to me through.

For the fuck wits, Yes.

Originally Posted by Dalton

According to the moderate muslims it's only 5 to 10% of the people who believe in Islam, there are extremist and rather violent, that is 120 million people we are talking about, so if the remaning 1,08 billion cant put them in the right place, then somebody else have to do it....unless they grow some balls.

Okay but when they retaliate then you can't run around dancing that Islam this Islam that and dropping 20000lbs bombs on the entire neighborhood doesn't help either. So how do you suppose it should be done.

**Whiteshiva** · 04-04-2008, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Dalton

^ I'm not asking Macha to solve the problem, but the muslims should clean out the trash in there back yard and move on with the peace-full way of life.

If only they were like us, everything would be OK, right? After all, who has ever heard of a western country starting a war? Or Christian clergy abusing their powers? Or a western man beating his wife?

You are beginning to sound like a fundamentalist, Dalton. I bet you have more in common with those people than you think.....

**machangezi** · 04-04-2008, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Dalton

Is she from Saudi ??? If I'm not mistaken women are not allowed to drive a car there...Please dont try and twist the subject, women are miles behind men in the muslim world.

Twist?? I show you a picture of a female Muslim fighter pilot and you go around talking about the Saudis? Fuck the Saudis they are the best friends of the westerners and America has got half a million troops there why don't they liberate the Saudi women? Saudis are the richest Muslims but they are not the representatives of the Islamic world. Why do you pick the worst of the lot?? If you think that there are no good Muslims in 1.84 billion Muslims then you got a problem and sorry I can't help.

BTW she is from Pakistan and me relative, I don't know where she is now but she used to live on the opposite side of the road where my home was.

How do they survive ?? Are they not boy cutting Danish products as well

No they don't.

**machangezi** · 04-04-2008, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Dalton

^ I'm not asking Macha to solve the problem, but the muslims should clean out the trash in there back yard and move on with the peace-full way of life.

Not asking Macha but the Muslims? Whatever that means, Dalts. I, Macha, am a Muslim and like NR correctly pointed out I have a family to spend time with, friends to have a laugh with, dogs to love, businesses to run. You are not expecting me (and other Mulims like myself) to leave our dialy lives and plans, pick swords/guns up and go after extremists?

**Dalton** · 04-04-2008, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by machangezi

Anyone who doesn't care to go through the historical context is wrong. Simple.

Well, good luck getting that message out.

Originally Posted by machangezi

For the fuck wits, Yes.

There seem to be quite a lot of them around, so many that it becomes a problem.

Originally Posted by machangezi

Okay but when they retaliate then you can't run around dancing that Islam this Islam that and dropping 20000lbs bombs on the entire neighborhood doesn't help either

It will get worse before it gets better.

Originally Posted by machangezi

So how do you suppose it should be done.

The 20000lbs bomb sounded like a good start...

**Dalton** · 04-04-2008, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Whiteshiva

If only they were like us, everything would be OK, right? After all, who has ever heard of a western country starting a war? Or Christian clergy abusing their powers? Or a western man beating his wife?

I never said the west is perfect, and I'm against all kinds of religion, not just Islam, religion is causing more problems that peace.

Originally Posted by Whiteshiva

You are beginning to sound like a fundamentalist, Dalton. I bet you have more in common with those people than you think.....

I'm indeed, in my own little world...

**Dalton** · 04-04-2008, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by machangezi

You are not expecting me (and other Mulims like myself) to leave our dialy lives and plans, pick swords/guns up and go after extremists?

I think there is something like military and police to that kind of jobs.....

Originally Posted by machangezi

dogs to love,

Isent there a thing about not being allowed to touch a wet dog or something like that ???

**machangezi** · 04-04-2008, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Dalton

Well, good luck getting that message out.

Thanks. I do my part.

Originally Posted by Dalton

There seem to be quite a lot of them around, so many that it becomes a problem.

Actually you pay too much attention to them.

It will get worse before it gets better.

I hope for the best.

The 20000lbs bomb sounded like a good start...

The more innocents killed the more recruitment stuff for the fuck wits.

I never said the west is perfect, and I'm against all kinds of religion, not just Islam, religion is causing more problems that peace.

I disagree. If people fail to follow their religion there is nothing wrong with the religion.

I think there is something like military and police to that kind of jobs.....

Yes and don't you see the armies of Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq doing their part?

Isent there a thing about not being allowed to touch a wet dog or something like that ???

Only when you are going for prayers. It is required that a person should look presentable when praying to the almighty. I have three dogs and people, Muslim and non Muslim, who say such things are idiots of the highest degree.

Find one verse in the Quran where God has ordered Muslims not to touch a wet dog? Come on Dalts you sound like an educated man , bred and fed in a multi-cultural society. These things sound good with the fuck wits.

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