Hmong to be sent back to Laos - Moved from news

**DrB0b** · 21-09-2007, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Mid

But Thailand has a right to expel anyone from their country,

not so fast ,

has to do with refugee status ........................

There are still Hmong guerillas fighting in Laos, there have been Hmong insurgents since the time of communist takeover in that country. The original insurgents were the anti-communist rebels originally financed and trained by the USA at the time of the Vietnam war but to many Hmongm to this day, the fight against the communists is still going on. There are two main reasons for this, the Hmong are the largest non-Lao ethnic group in Laos and are considered enemies of the state by the Laos government for their earlier "collaboration" with the US and other anti-communist forces, their current resistance to the Laos Govts. policies of repression and extermination of the Hmong as punishment for their support of anti-communist forces, and because of their religion - they are mostly Christians.

Some quick background from Amnesty International.

A number of ethnic minority groups, especially the Hmong, were allied to the US during the Viet Nam war and its spill-over fighting in Laos and Cambodia. In the aftermath of the creation of the Lao People's Democratic Republic in 1975, up to a third of the Hmong ethnic minority, estimated to some 300,000 in 1970, are believed to have fled the country, mostly to be resettled in the USA.

An unknown number of Hmong and other minorities have remained in the jungle to this day, hiding from the Lao military. Some groups have continued armed resistance to the Lao government, but many are not involved in fighting. In recent years a variety of sources have revealed to the outside world the dismal situation and increasingly desperate struggle for survival of such groups, including women, children and elderly people

And from the same source details of a recent "incident" in Laos

4 May 2006

Laos: Massacre of unarmed Hmong women and children

Amnesty International strongly condemns the massacre of ethnic Hmong people by Lao government troops in northern Vientiane province last month. The deadly attack, which took place some 20 kilometres northeast of the tourist town of Vang Vieng on 6 April 2006, claimed the lives of at least 26 people, mostly women and children. Another four people were wounded.

Scattered groups of people from the ethnic Hmong minority make up the largely forgotten remnants of an armed rebel group involved in a decades-old internal armed conflict with the national armed forces. The victims of the recent massacre came from one such group.

The government troops launched their assault in the morning hours while the victims, reportedly unarmed, were searching for food outside of their hiding places in the jungle.

Laos: Massacre of unarmed Hmong women and children - Amnesty International

The current Laos demands for the return of the refugees are linked to the US -based Hmong-backed coup attempt earlier this year;

The interception by United States authorities of a plot by Hmong rebels, including General Vang Pao, to overthrow the Lao government by force probably put the final nail in the coffin of Hmong expatriates' dreams of liberating their people from alleged systematic persecution by the communist regime in Vientiane. Small remnants of anti-communist Hmong guerrilla groups are still believed to be fighting a sporadic jungle war against Vientiane. Laos has alleged that Vang Pao and some Hmong expats in the US had, on several occasions in the past, raised funds to finance raids against Lao government positions from staging areas inside of Thailand, an accusation denied by Bangkok. The arrest of Vang Pao, a warlord who led a secret army backed by the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to combat Lao and Vietnamese communist insurgents until the end of the Indochina war in the mid 1970s, and eight other California-based Hmong by US authorities on charges of violating the US Neutrality Act, coincided with an improvement in Lao-US relations in recent years.

Laos must make peace with Hmong

If Thailand sends those refugees back to Laos they will all be killed, there is no doubt about it. Such an act would be shameful, barbaric, and illegal under international law. They'll probably do it anyway, they've done it before - most recently in June this year AFAIK. The UN are putting extreme pressure on Thailand over this issue - I hope to God it works.

Remnants of Hmong groups that have survived since the war in remote areas of mainly northern Laos are in their death throes, given several years of a reportedly brutal crackdown by Lao and Vietnamese troops in the Saysomboom restricted zone, a series of large surrenders by the main jungle groups and a mass exodus across the Mekong to Phetchabun province.
The recent bilateral agreement by a Thai-Lao border committee last month - to forcibly return any new arrivals to Laos "no matter how many bullet wounds they have", as one sarcastic observer noted - was probably the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back.
Vang Pao would have been acutely aware of how dire the situation has become in recent weeks, which have seen a series of alerts of looming forced deportations from detention centres in the North and far Northeast, where Hmong from Laos have been detained.
Websites in the US such as factfinding.org carry regular updates on the predicament of Hmong refugees here, which is now an issue of international attention thanks to activists such as Joe Davy, Laura Xiong, Ed Szendrey and Rebecca Sommer.

Did Hmong crisis spur Vang Pao 'plot'?

This website contains stories and films taken from Laos and is a sort of community centre for exiled and refugee Hmong, some of it is not for the squeamish. Bear with the irritating flash intro, the site is an eye-opener. Welcome to the Jungle

We normally see Laos as tourists and travellers, a land of baguettes, polite people, and pristine temples but it is in fact a brutal and repressive dictatorship, although a far more subtle one than Myanmars, with tens of thousands of people sent to re-education camps and a murderous army and police force.

Political repression is rife in the grimly despotic regime of Laos. No opposition to the ruling party is permitted in Laos. Short-term detention, torture, ill treatment, and physical threats are routinely used to intimidate political opponents. The fate and whereabouts of protesters arrested in the 1999, 2000 and 2001 movement for democracy remain unknown.

Secretive Laos: Finally in the Spotlight

**stroller** · 21-09-2007, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by blackgang

...seems folks raise a lot of hell about the USA, "Bunch of bastards, sticking their nose in other govt.s business",, then you all want to stick your noses in Thai govt. business

Individuals expressing an opinion is not the same as a superpower nation-state applying pressure, including military invasions.

Originally Posted by blackgang

If we do not like what they are doing then we should not stay here and spend our money, but go someplace that operates under a criteria that we approve of or go home.

- after you! If "not liking what they are doing" is a criterium, you should be the first one to leave, judging by some of your comments about the Thais and their ways.

**blackgang** · 21-09-2007, 07:39 PM

OK then, why not get the US govt to go in and clean the mess up.
But I don't really want to see a bunch of you libs posting shit about the USA like has been happening on here for ever about whats going on in Iraq and afghan anymore.

Thats what they claim they are doing in there, Saving people from oppressive governments,
So just y'all settle down and start posting what a bunch of bastards the Thai govt and the Lao govt are.
Post shit about how you will take up arms if some country wants to go in and clean house in Lao.
And I will leave you alone, but all you dudes can do is bitch about what someone else is doing and not a thing to change anything,,, bunch of tough guys alright.

**stroller** · 21-09-2007, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by blackgang

OK then, why not get the US govt to go in and clean the mess up.

Because that is not what is required, suggested nor appropriate.

People are expressing their opinions, bg, about a group of Hmongs in Thailand, and it got nothing to do with "libs" or the US.

**Mid** · 21-09-2007, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mid

US needs to step up here ,

hopefully this is designed to put the pressure on .

bump .........

**stroller** · 21-09-2007, 08:25 PM

Ok, then, it does have something to do with the US, but them invading and sorting is out is not on the cards, the topic and my concern is for the Hmong, not the role of the US or whether I should leave Thailand if I disagree with this situation.

Looks like we're not going to get on the same page here and recognise these are people who need to be protected.

**Mid** · 21-09-2007, 08:30 PM

my point is that the US need to resettle them ,

not abandon them ...........................

**blackgang** · 21-09-2007, 08:31 PM

I think you are correct there, we will not agree because they are here illegally and I think Thailand is in her right to deport them, they never said that they would take them so should not be up to them to feed them either, if the Human rights folks want to feed them and house them then it should be up to them to do it.
If they wanted to make a deal with Thailand to pay to have it done and Thailand agrees on a price then so be it.

**blackgang** · 21-09-2007, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by Mid

my point is that the US need to resettle them , not abandon them

So be it, but that is a load for any country to take on, let the Human rights ORG. do it.
They are just like the bunch on here, someone feed and care for these poor folks, but i am going to do nothing except set here in my house on my puter and bitch and look like a good guy as long as you do not ask me for money or to do anything but bitch and look cool on a forum.

Get off your ass and take a ton of rice up there and leave a check with the gate guards to build houses and pay for electricity and stove fuel..

**stroller** · 21-09-2007, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by blackgang

Get off your ass and take a ton of rice up there and leave a check with the gate guards to build houses and pay for electricity and stove fuel..

They are about to be deported and possibly murdered.
And no, I won't go down there fight the cops.

But I am glad there are organisations which are onto it.

**Mid** · 21-09-2007, 08:52 PM

Get off your ass and take a ton of rice up there and leave a check with the gate guards to build houses and pay for electricity and stove fuel..

understand your sediment ,

however that advice belongs to the US as does the problem , the US created it so save your moralistic rant for where it belongs ............

**blackgang** · 21-09-2007, 09:32 PM

31 Hmong Refugees Not Deported: Abandoned at Laos Border « DavidKinchen.com

An army branch of Thai National Security is currently in charge of the
Hmong refugees. They found that 30 to 40 percent of the Hmong Lao staying at Phetchabun are long-term residents who had drifted north following last year’s closure of the Wat Tham Krabok refugee camp in
Saraburi.

According to a Thai military official, the remaining Hmong will soon be
divided into three groups and resettled. Those who came from the conflict areas will make up one group and probably will not be deported. The second group will contain fugitives from Laos who fled for various reasons but did not come from the areas of armed conflict.

The third group will be those Hmong who have already been long-term Thai residents. They will be taken back to the areas in Thailand where
they had been living before they recently moved to the camp.

According to a report submitted to the United Nations by Ms. Sommer of
the Society of Threatened Peoples, she documented more than 1,100 refugees in the camp who had recently fled military aggression in Laos. Thai officials say they can only find 100 such refugees.

I don't see how Ms Sommer could come up with that info when she said that they were not allowed to talk to them, but what ever, I do not believe most of it anyway and I can not see where it is all USA fault when Old Bob said that they are still fighting the communists of Lao and they have been hiding for 30 years and a lot of them are below 30, so send those back, but seems as the Thai will settle the ones that have been here awhile.

I might seem hard to some, but you have to look after your own and if you don't then no one will.

**blackgang** · 22-09-2007, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Mid

however that advice belongs to the US as does the problem , the US created it so save your moralistic rant for where it belongs

Kind of the way I remember it.

Sure the US did give them some support for their cause, some supplies when possible and Air America did make some drops, but if I remember correctly, It was their wishes to fight for their own govt and not a communist one, but was not instigated by the US, but was not discouraged either by a damn site, A lot of info was delivered by the Hmong to the US forces as to NVA movement, camps and often used trails in Laos, but there is bound to be some things that went on that I do not know about as not all of us were privy to everything, and did not care as that was not our job description and just being able to return alive was most of our criteria.
So do to that fact, and not taking someone else' word as gospel, I place even blame on both sides, And what most people know about what went on is hear say as they were not insiders and most were never even there.
I do know that things were set up by intel people, but what the payoff was I do not know either.

And if all blame is on the US, why are they still fighting as has been posted on this thread when the last US involvement ended in 1972 when the combat troops were pulled out of Nam.

Now what has been said by me is MHO, and if you have been in there as an official of the USA then tell us what you "know", not what you have heard as most of this thread is HEAR SAY.

**stroller** · 22-09-2007, 01:51 PM

It is well documented, don't need to have actually been there.
Not that I am an expert on it, but read a few things.
Notably Alfred McCoy's accounts of the heroin trade, which involves US intel, Air America and the Hmong.

I agree it is not the US's responsibility, they fukced around in Laos some 30+ years ago and the Hmong have been a lost course ever since, but I wouldn't pull the blame card on the yanks.

It's an international humanitarian issue, as far as I am concerned, and any lobbying and pressure on Thailand to do their part to keep these people from harm is welcome.

**Mid** · 22-09-2007, 02:00 PM

I agree it is not the US's responsibility, they fukced around in Laos some 30+ years ago and the Hmong have been a lost course ever since, but I wouldn't pull the blame card on the yanks.

translation required ........................

**blackgang** · 22-09-2007, 02:20 PM

Stroller said=It's an international humanitarian issue, as far as I am concerned, and any lobbying and pressure on Thailand to do their part to keep these people from harm is welcome.

That is very true, everyone is screaming but no one seems to do anything except point the finger at someone else.
And if Thailand has supported them for as long as has been said, then I can't blame them for doing something, maybe it is to force someone to shit OR get off the throne.

And OH YES, Air America was a more or less private entity and they [some of the people] did dabble in drug import/export, for a better word.
But AA was the air CIA, and they were not always on the up and up with everyone either.
Ya know they have another Air service now.

**stroller** · 22-09-2007, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by blackgang

Ya know they have another Air service now.

Yes, ironically operating not in the "golden triangle", but in the "golden crescent" area now.

**chitown** · 22-09-2007, 03:42 PM

before youtube is banned....here is a video about the Hmong. There are several to watch in the group listed on youtube.

**blackgang** · 22-09-2007, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by stroller

Yes, ironically operating not in the "golden triangle", but in the "golden crescent" area now.

OH Really, I didn't know they were there, white planes with a pretty green trim?? or are they flying Hercs and Cariboos

I bet that they are making more money than they did in SEAsia.

**DrB0b** · 22-09-2007, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by blackgang

So just y'all settle down and start posting what a bunch of bastards the Thai govt and the Lao govt are.

Does this count?

Originally Posted by drb0b

We normally see Laos as tourists and travellers, a land of baguettes, polite people, and pristine temples but it is in fact a brutal and repressive dictatorship, although a far more subtle one than Myanmars, with tens of thousands of people sent to re-education camps and a murderous army and police force.

**Mid** · 25-09-2007, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by panama hat

Originally Posted by benbaaa

First they came for the Hmong, and I did nothing...

Then...

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

Glad to see the quote I hold dearest to me.

It has lost none of its poignancy since 1945

more poignant than ever .......................

bump

**Mid** · 14-02-2008, 08:05 PM

UN urged to end Hmong persecution
UPDATED ON:
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 12, 2008

The Hmong population in Laos is said to have gone down from 18,000 to 7,000 in recent years
[AFP]

Leaders of Hmong refugees in Laos have called for international help to stop the "genocide" of the ethnic group.

In a letter to the UN, a copy of which Al Jazeera has obtained, Hmong leaders have complained that their population has been reduced from 18,000 to just 7,000 in recent years.

The drastic fall in numbers have been attributed to large number of deaths due to attacks by the Laotian army, diseases and poor living conditions.

The Hmongs fought against the communist nationalists in Laos during the 1960-75 civil war, and were singled out for retribution when the war ended.

Retribution

The communist authorities are now allegedly targeting them for working with the CIA after the Vietnam War spilled over into Laos.

Tens of thousands of refugees were re-settled in Western countries, including the US, Australia, Canada and France, while others were returned to Laos under UN-sponsored repatriation programmes.

Many more crossed porous local borders to take refuge in China, Vietnam, Thailand and Myanmar.

Thousands remained in the jungles of northern Laos, but these groups are frequently targeted by the Laotian army.

Last week the US state department said it was investigating claims of persecution against the Hmong people, as Radio Free Asia reported that the Laotian army now had a "shoot to kill' policy towards the ethnic group.

The UN refugee agency has previously raised concern over the forced return of Hmong refugees by Thailand.

The agency does not have an office within Laos and therefore is not able to comment on the Hmong people there.

english.aljazeera.net

**Mid** · 01-03-2008, 04:19 PM

Thailand begins Hmong deportations

Thailand intends to send back 8,000 Hmong back
to Laos under a repatriation pact
[AFP]

Thailand has started sending Hmong asylum seekers back to neighbouring Laos, where they fear political persecution.

Twelve Hmong were removed from a camp in Thailand's Petchabun province on Thursday.

The camp is estimated to hold nearly 8,000 Hmong from Laos, most of whom say they fear for their safety in their communist homeland.

Aid agency witnesses say they were sent back against their will, but Thailand insists they went voluntarily.

The deportations began as Samak Sundaravej, the new Thai prime minister, made his first official visit to Laos on Friday to discuss energy deals as well as the fate of thousands of Hmong.

Under a Laos-Thai repatriation pact, the Thai government is to send nearly 8,000 Hmong back to Laos.

According to the Thai military supreme command's border affairs office, which manages the Petchabun camp, the 12 volunteered to go back to Laos as a goodwill gesture prior to Sundaravej's visit.

Aid group's concerns

But the UN refugee agency is concerned about the repatriation because of reports that they were sent back involuntarily, a spokeswoman said on Friday.

The Hmong people

The Hmong have been living in Laos for more than 100 years

More than 200,000 Hmong have fled Laos since 1975

Thailand has initially taken in some Hmong into camps for resettlement or repatriation

About 90 per cent of Hmong refugees have been resettled in the US

Source: Migrationinformation.org; factfinding.org

A humanitarian aid group which works at the camp said one of the volunteers was a woman who had five children left behind at the camp.

Doctors Without Borders said the separation from her children suggested that her return was not voluntary.

The displacement of Hmong is a legacy of the Vietnam War.

During the 1960s and '70s, the US Central Intelligence Agency recruited Hmong fighters in Laos to attack neighbouring Vietnam's communist forces and their supply lines.

After the conflict ended in 1975, many who fought on the American side fled Laos, fearing persecution.

International monitors have been barred from the country but the Laos government says the Hmong will be safe.

Detention woes

In a recent incident, Hmong secretly filmed themselves locked up in the Nong Khai immigration detention centre.

Up to 153 people were filmed crammed in a temporary holding cell since December 2006. More than half were children.

They had staged hunger strikes, and some were threatening to kill themselves if they were not released soon.

In Video

Watch Hannah Belcher's report on the "new villages"

Some 15 months ago, Thai immigration raided a poor suburb of the capital, Bangkok, along the Bang Sue Canal. They rounded up more than 150 Hmong.

At the time, most were carrying UNHCR refugee certificates.

The group was sent to prison despite having their UNHCR special status.

Several countries have agreed to take them, yet every day they wait to hear their fate.

Since then, hundreds of Hmong have fled the area.

Source: Al Jazeera and agencies

english.aljazeera.net

**panama hat** · 02-03-2008, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Mid

Originally Posted by panama hat

Originally Posted by benbaaa

First they came for the Hmong, and I did nothing...

Then...

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

Glad to see the quote I hold dearest to me.

It has lost none of its poignancy since 1945

more poignant than ever .......................

bump

Yes, it is. This situation makes me quite sad, very sad actually. Sucha small number of people, yet treated so badly.

I do place the blame, the current blame, on Thai authorities. I am certain that the Hmong would be suported financially 100% by other nations if required (if they not already are), but the treatment Thais mete out to those less fortunate (Burmese, Cambodians etc . . . ) is indicative of how the Buddhist principles are only applied to oneself.

**Norton** · 02-03-2008, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by panama hat

Such a small number of people, yet treated so badly.

In other words a "minority". As with all minorities, they have no financial, military or political clout. Always the target of bad treatment ranging from extermination to being blamed for all the ills of a particular country. If Thailand wants to send them back to Lao where it is pretty clear the Hmong are routinely persecuted, then the international community has a moral obligation to "convince" Thailand otherwise by imposing disincentives and incentives for doing so.

Thread: Hmong to be sent back to Laos - Moved from news

Thread Tools

Display

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

Posting Permissions