Thread: England RFU Poach from the Pacific Islands. Again.

When will this wanton rape of natural rugby playing talent end!? England clearly have no desire to see the game grow and are playing cheque-book rugby. The pillaging of players like Mauger, Van Gisbergen, McAllister, and too many other names to mention is a disgrace. And now this:

Rugby: Giant Tongan Kiwi wing on England's side
12:00PM Thursday January 10, 2008


LONDON - After seeing their World Cup ambitions destroyed by former All Black wing Jonah Lomu, England will take particular pleasure in including the latest "new Jonah" in their Six Nations squad.

Like the outstanding player at the 1995 and 1999 World Cups, Lesley Vainikolo is a giant wing of Tongan/New Zealand descent who made his name in rugby league before switching to union at the start of this season with Gloucester.

Any question marks disappeared within his first 80 minutes last September, two days after England were thumped 36-0 by South Africa in the World Cup, as he racked up five tries to announce the crossover of "The Volcano" in the most emphatic way possible.

After just eight more games England coach Brian Ashton had seen enough to include the 28-year-old in his Six Nations squad, for which he qualifies by residency having moved to England six years ago to play league for Bradford.

"I first saw him about five years ago playing rugby league and there was a bit of a wow factor then," Ashton said on Wednesday when revealing his 32-man group.

"When he switched it was interesting to see if he would take time to adjust. It's not quite been a seamless conversion but not far off as he's played union as a youngster. He's been a seriously good addition to the Gloucester team."

Asked exactly what Vainikolo would bring to an England squad not short of quality on the wings, Ashton waxed in unusually lyrical terms.
"He's different, we've never seen an England winger like him that's for sure. He's got an X-factor and players with an X-factor in the international game are pretty important," he said.

"He's powerful, explosive but he's a good footballer with good footwork and he's not been caught out defensively," added the Wigan-born coach, a lifetime admirer of the 13-man game.

"He's a try scorer, a threat all over the field, pretty quick as well. But he's not only your traditional powerhouse winger, he's intelligent. I've seen him play centre and he's certainly a pretty good all-round package."
For some union purists, however, even that glowing testimonial was not good enough. "Aren't you worried about his lack of a kicking game?" Ashton was asked of the former 10.8 seconds 100 metres runner, who was good enough to compete in the world junior athletics championships 11 years ago.

"Why would you want an 18 stone 6ft 2in player to kick the ball away?" answered the exasperated coach, who was similarly dismissive on fears over the condition of Vainikolo's knees. "Dodgy knees? You ought to talk to those who play against him and have to try to stop him.".

Ashton said his latest acquisition was very excited about the prospect of joining up with England ahead of their opening Six Nations game against Wales at Twickenham on Feb 2, though the final confirmation of his eligibility has yet to arrive from the Tongan union.
- REUTERS

There's only one word for it: POACHERS!!!!!

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

There's only one word for it: POACHERS!!!!!

I agree.

Seen some footage of Vainiloko.

He should be poisoned before February the 4th for Wales' sake.

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

I agree.

You're Welsh, you would... Sinkinson, Parker, Howarth... those names ring any bells!? POACHERS!!

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Sinkinson, Parker, Howarth

no bells at all I'm afraid.

sound like Scots.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

When will this wanton rape of natural rugby playing talent end!? England clearly have no desire to see the game grow and are playing cheque-book rugby. The pillaging of players like Mauger, Van Gisbergen, McAllister, and too many other names to mention is a disgrace. And now this:

Asked exactly what Vainikolo would bring to an England squad not short of quality on the wings, Ashton waxed in unusually lyrical terms.
"He's different, we've never seen an England winger like him that's for sure. He's got talent and in England,we lack talent.
- REUTERS

There's only one word for it: POACHERS!!!!!

Have Paul Tito, Xaviar Rush, Marty Hollah and that scrum half chap been playing in Wales long enough for a cap yet?

Elsie is clearly suffering from post world cup meltdown.

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Sinkinson, Parker, Howarth

no bells at all I'm afraid.

sound like Scots.

No the Scots poached Brendan Laney (snigger), the Leslie brothers, and that rather forgettable fullback from NZ. the aforementioned names are amongst those in the Hall of Shame that Wales has poached (which also includes our coaches).

When will this Northern Hemisphere pillage of rugby talent stop!?!

A Kiwi accusing people of poaching Pacific Islanders, that's just too funny to take seriously.

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

and that scrum half chap

got it.
Justin Marshall.

Originally Posted by buriramboy

A Kiwi accusing people of poaching Pacific Islanders, that's just too funny to take seriously.

we've had this argument before and the kiwis have clearly proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have never poached a single player.
not one.
all of their players are and always were 100% kiwi.

Originally Posted by buriramboy

A Kiwi accusing people of poaching Pacific Islanders, that's just too funny to take seriously.

A) Obviously it's escaped your attention but New Zealand is a 'Pacific Island(s)';

B) You're kinda missing the point of this thread, that being exactly what you've alluded to yourself, the ceaseless (and baseless) accusations of poaching emminating from our NH friends;

C) Who have they poached?

Good show!

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

B) Who have they poached?

yipee.
here we go..

An old classic to start the year.

Looks like you got one fish on the line ant, you gonna toy with him and his feeble lack of knowledge or it the Gray Nicholls straight on the bonce??

Hmmm, bit of a guppie I think. Might throw him back.

Jerry Collins (Samoa)

Va'aiga Tuigamala (Samoa)

^ Yes, good lad that Collins boy. Raised in NZ and learnt his rugby there. Not like Vaunuokolo with England for example...

No actually a lot like him, He was also raised in NZ and learnt his rugby there. Issac Boss with Ireland maybe? Hmmm, nope... etc etc ad infinitum.

Patriot games

England’s choice of Lesley Vainikolo continues a trend that is legal - but it is morally wrong


David Walsh


A few of the older England rugby players tell a story about the build-up to the 2002 autumn international against New Zealand at Twickenham. On the eve of the game, Clive Woodward conducted a team meeting that had, as its central theme, the belief that England would win because they were better in every position than their rivals. “Look, guys,” said the coach, “each of you is better than your opposite number.”

On a board in front of the players, Woodward had a list of the two teams and he matched individuals up to better make his point. Jason Robinson was clearly a better full-back than Ben Blair, Phil Vickery would out-scrum Joe McDonnell, Martin Johnson would dominate Ali Williams, Jonny Wilkinson would cut Carlos Spencer in half, Ben Cohen would run through Doug Howlett, and on it went.

The wise guys in the room had already checked the remaining match-ups and detected a problem. In the England team for his first cap was the 20-year-old right wing, James Simpson-Daniel, whose direct opponent was Jonah Lomu. You could have said a lot of things about Simpson-Daniel at that point of his career; he was quick and elusive, he was skilful and creative, he had bags of potential. But better than Lomu he was not.

So the tittering began in the second row of seats and it spread. Not that anyone heard because nobody dared show disrespect, but this was a genuinely funny moment survived only because mature men know when and how to suppress laughter. Because he had such flair, the future lay at Simpson-Daniel’s nimble and quick feet. That same autumn, he showed the most wonderful football sense to set up Ben Cohen for the winning try against Australia. Remember that?

But six years have passed and he has 10 caps. Against his talent, that’s nothing. When an England squad is announced, you check to see if Simpson-Daniel is still there. When Brian Ashton revealed his squads last week, the Gloucester back made the Saxons, which is, effectively, the third XV.

Amongst those in the elite squad is Simpson-Daniel’s clubmate, Lesley Vainikolo, and the selection of Gloucester’s left wing before their right wing made you think. What is the England rugby team coming to?
In mid-December, when Fabio Capello was appointed manager of the England football team, Arsène Wenger offered a sobering judgment on news greeted joyously by most English fans. While he expressed his admiration for the Italian and spoke of him as a manager of the highest quality, Wenger said it was wrong to appoint a foreign manager of the national team.

His argument was difficult to dismiss. A national team should be representative of that country’s football. England is a strong football nation, where the game and the national team are important to millions of people. Wenger says the team should show the strength of English football, both in terms of its indigenous coaches and players. What is England if it is run by a squad of Italian coaches? It is a less English side than one run by native coaches.

Ashton said he was delighted to include Vainikolo. From Ashton’s point of view, it was straightforward: Vainikolo qualifies for the team because he has been an English resident for three years and under the laws of international rugby, that’s enough. Forget the fact that Vainikolo was born in Tonga, of Tongan parents, and did most of his growing up in New Zealand and little more than a year ago, he played rugby league for the Kiwis. Forget that we have long criticised New Zealand and Australia for cherry-picking talented Samoans, Tongans and Fijians. Forget also that we were uplifted by Tonga and Fiji at the recent World Cup and that we all know they need to retain their best players. Forget too that Lesley Vainikolo is as Tongan/Kiwi as Simpson-Daniel is English.

But imagine if Ashton had, in his first conversation with Vainikolo, brought up the subject of Englishness.

“Lesley, do you feel English?” “What do you mean, coach?” “I mean, do you really yearn to stand in Twickenham and join with everyone in singing God Save The Queen and will it feel like the realisation of a dream?” “Oh coach, all I want to do is play rugby at the highest level.”

“Well, Lesley, that’s good enough for me.”

Soon, the Maori centre Riki Flutey will be eligible to play for the England rugby team and if Vainikolo is good enough, Flutey is good enough. He has almost completed his three years of residency but Flutey, who played for the Maoris against England in 2003, understands the vague absurdity about him becoming an England player.

“I got quite a fright when I turned up for training (at Wasps) and saw these articles pinned up on the wall, with headlines saying, ‘Flutey wants to be an England star’. I thought, ‘Jeez, this is embarrassing. I never once said anything like that’. What I did say, in answer to a few questions, was this: if I was eligible and I felt I was playing well, and the England coach came up and offered me an opportunity, I wouldn’t shake my head immediately and tell him ‘no way’. But this wasn’t something that had occurred to me until I was asked about it and to be honest, I’d feel pretty strange. It would certainly be a shock to everyone back home. I’m still young and it may be that I’ll return to New Zealand one day and pursue the ultimate goal of becoming an All Black. That was my childhood dream from the moment I saw Michael Jones and those guys play for the first time.”

Flutey’s honesty is admirable and, spiritually, it should disqualify him from playing for any team except the All Blacks. Why would a proud and powerful rugby country like England want to play a young man whose ultimate dream is to represent the All Blacks? But if you pick Vainikolo, morally you have to consider Flutey, but the truth is that in selecting the Tongan, England have taken a wrong turn.

An England international recently argued that Ashton should pick the best squad of eligible players. But if that means having a Tongan, Kiwi, South African and Samoan in the team, is that okay? He said it’s what New Zealand and Australia have been doing and, in the end, all that mattered was winning. We disagreed because even if it is true that the All Blacks have used Polynesian islanders to bolster their squad, if Australia has imported an Argentinian prop or two, that doesn’t mean England has to do the same.

To a degree, it has been happening for years. Did Mike Catt feel English when he first pulled that white jersey over his South African shoulders, ditto for Matt Stevens, Allan Lamb, Kevin Pietersen, English or South African?

What constitutes entitlement to play for England in sport? Legally, the answer is whatever the administrators and their corporate advisors deem suitable. Morally, it is straightforward and unchanging. The player should have been brought up in England and have learnt the game through England’s system. For better or worse, they would properly represent the English game and if it not good enough, let English administrators, coaches and players make it better. What is happening now is in danger of giving us football and rugby teams whose players wear the shirt but do not represent the English game.

And the danger exists for football as much as rugby. The Arsenal goalkeeper Manuel Almunia explained why he might be prepared to play for England rather than his native Spain. Having once said: “They [Spain] have never, never called me. If other people want me, I have to study my situation and take a decision that is good for me – I will not close myself to anything”, he now says: “If Capello is interested in me for the national team, I am ready to take up English citizenship.”

Those with a cynical slant on this say that everyone will cheer when the team wins. They should, perhaps, not be so sure.

Citizens of the world
- In 1936, as he made his international rugby debut, Prince Alexander Obolensky was asked by the Prince of Wales, ‘By what right do you play for England?’ The answer was simple. After fleeing the 1917 Russian Revolution, Obolensky had lived in this country and, after 19 years of residency, was entitled to British citizenship. In the four decades after, only a trickle of sportsmen and women followed his example. That changed after South Africa’s exile from international sport, which saw a number of cricketers from the Cape pledge allegiance to the Three Lions, starting with Tony Greig

- The huge number of overseas professional rugby, cricket and football players now plying their trade in the United Kingdom and the financial rewards that come with representing this country at international level could lead to another explosion of sportsmen officially making England their home nation. The current rules state that, no matter where he/she has lived previously, any athlete can now qualify to play for this country if he/she has: – been born in the United Kingdom – parents or grandparents who have/had British passports or been born in this country – taken up British citizenship, following three years of permanent residency

- However, they are not eligible if they have previously represented another country at full international level (or at A level in football). Lesley Vainikolo has now qualified to play rugby for England through the residency rule. Although he was born in Tonga and capped by New Zealand, where he grew up, at rugby league, this is a separate sport and has no bearing on his union status.

Patriot games - Times Online

Must say, good article that.

Rodney So'oialo (Yet another one poached from Samoa)

So far all those you've mentioned learnt their rugby in the NZ system.

Read the article yet?