Thread: Hydrogen power, the future alternative fuel.

I prefer hydrogen peroxide for my rocket fuel. Much easier to come by as they sell it at Boots.

naa its only 3%, the withnallstoke wankjuice of rocket fuel

Here's another Thai resident 's HHO project video.

For those who like the more complex tech. models.

There's more to HHO than just running cars and motorcycles and trucks and stuff on it.

Hydrogen gas cookers are an ideal method of saving money in the home.

Not only that, but hydrogen burns clean, producing only water and of course heat.

Hydrogen can be safely stored for use in a cooker, and may also be produced by your own home generator as a continuous flow of gas, regulated by a simple second hand car dimmer switch.

The gas does not explode unless it is mixed in the correct ratio of two parts of Hydrogen to one of oxygen, and since only hydrogen is stored for the cooker, the gas will not explode if stored alone.

Another thing about the gas, when lit on a stove, the flame burns straight upwards, as hydrogen is lighter than air.

Originally Posted by Gerbil

^ Time to move this out of Issues and in to MKP I think.

Seconded. No longer worth arguing.

^Tell you what would get me interested?. There are standard fuel consumption tests that manufactures have to use to obtain their fuel consumption figures. Devise a trial where a number of cars to used with and without the hydrogen generators; where risks of experimental biases, such as engine tuning, have been managed out of the equation. show a statically significant change is fuel consumption and I will be very interested.

Originally Posted by ENT

There's more to HHO than just running cars and motorcycles and trucks and stuff on it.

Hydrogen gas cookers are an ideal method of saving money in the home.

Not only that, but hydrogen burns clean, producing only water and of course heat.

Hydrogen can be safely stored for use in a cooker, and may also be produced by your own home generator as a continuous flow of gas, regulated by a simple second hand car dimmer switch.

The gas does not explode unless it is mixed in the correct ratio of two parts of Hydrogen to one of oxygen, and since only hydrogen is stored for the cooker, the gas will not explode if stored alone.

Another thing about the gas, when lit on a stove, the flame burns straight upwards, as hydrogen is lighter than air.

Did you ever look at the link? What did you think of this guys idea?

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:John_Kanzius_Produces_Hydrogen_from_Salt _Water_Using_Radio_Waves

Originally Posted by Takeovers

Originally Posted by Gerbil

^ Time to move this out of Issues and in to MKP I think.

Seconded. No longer worth arguing.

You've got no viable argument to present, and you obviously just don't want to know.

^^
To be honest Carrabow, I haven't done more than give it a quick look, but I will sit down and check it out in a few hours and let you know. Cool?

Originally Posted by Carrabow

Did you ever look at the link? What did you think of this guys idea? Directory:John Kanzius Produces Hydrogen from Salt - PESWiki _Water_Using_Radio_Waves

I did.

Of course it may be possible to separate H2 and O in water this way. That can be done in many ways, even that of ENT. There is nothing new in it. But you start with putting expensive electric energy in. That makes the endproduct expensive.
The laws of physics prohibit that the produced H2 contains more energy than the microwave energy put into the process. Anybody claiming othewise is either lying or excessively stupid.

Originally Posted by ENT

^^
To be honest Carrabow, I haven't done more than give it a quick look, but I will sit down and check it out in a few hours and let you know. Cool?

That's all up to you. I will put my 2 cents in this. For a long time I have been a firm believer the the oil companies and the auto makers have been sticking it up our asses for a long time. This also falls along the lines with computer technology, propulsion systems, medical advancements and alternative fuels. You don't have take the blinders off to figure it out. Tesla was up to something along time ago and people thought he was a loon.

We need to put more emphasis on science...period

Originally Posted by Takeovers

Originally Posted by Carrabow

Did you ever look at the link? What did you think of this guys idea? Directory:John Kanzius Produces Hydrogen from Salt - PESWiki _Water_Using_Radio_Waves

I did.

Of course it may be possible to separate H2 and O in water this way. That can be done in many ways, even that of ENT. There is nothing new in it. But you start with putting expensive electric energy in. That makes the endproduct expensive.
The laws of physics prohibit that the produced H2 contains more energy than the microwave energy put into the process. Anybody claiming othewise is either lying or excessively stupid.

I have a question that you may be able to answer. All of our applied sciences are based off what we do here on earth in gravity. What would happen in zero G?

Originally Posted by Carrabow

I have a question that you may be able to answer. All of our applied sciences are based off what we do here on earth in gravity. What would happen in zero G?

Gravity does not figure in the laws of thermodynamics that determine that energy cannot be produced or lost, only converted.

The part with energy cannot be lost needs some explanation with an example. You want to convert electricity into H2. Doing so you incur a loss. Not all of the electric energy is converted to H2. But the energy "lost" is only lost for your intent of producing H2. It still exists in the form of heat.

But I should put a third option in my earlier claim. A person would be

a liar,

excessively stupid

or maybe just ignorant of the underlying science and has fallen for a liar. That would not mean a person is stupid. Liars can be very convincing.

We have solar and geothermal (convert this to steam and run it to a turbine) technology and in certain regions we can make lots of hydrogen. I guess we just have to put our hearts as a society into it.

I forgot:

Hydroelectric

harnessing wind and waves

There are lots of renewable sources, it will just take an initial investment.

Originally Posted by Carrabow

We have solar and geothermal (convert this to steam and run it to a turbine) technology and in certain regions we can make lots of hydrogen. I guess we just have to put our hearts as a society into it.

Originally Posted by Carrabow

Hydroelectric harnessing wind and waves There are lots of renewable sources, it will just take an initial investment.

Absolutely, I agree.

I believe though that we will find a better way through harnessing biomass from algae or some other process. That would be better because we need less steps of transformation and incur less loss and cost. Also biomass can replace oil as a raw material for the chemical industry.

If I am wrong it can be done as you mentioned. But as hydrogen is not as easily stored and used I guess we may use produced H2 in the Sabatier process or some similar process to procude methane (and water) which can be easier handled and better used as a fuel.

Sabatier reaction CO2 + 4H2 → CH4 + 2H2O

Originally Posted by Takeovers

Originally Posted by Carrabow

We have solar and geothermal (convert this to steam and run it to a turbine) technology and in certain regions we can make lots of hydrogen. I guess we just have to put our hearts as a society into it.

Originally Posted by Carrabow

Hydroelectric harnessing wind and waves There are lots of renewable sources, it will just take an initial investment.

Absolutely, I agree.

I believe though that we will find a better way through harnessing biomass from algae or some other process. That would be better because we need less steps of transformation and incur less loss and cost. Also biomass can replace oil as a raw material for the chemical industry.

If I am wrong it can be done as you mentioned. But as hydrogen is not as easily stored and used I guess we may use produced H2 in the Sabatier process or some similar process to procude methane (and water) which can be easier handled and better used as a fuel.

Sabatier reaction CO2 + 4H2 → CH4 + 2H2O

Well, if we invest in our childrens future by means of science, think outside the box and develope better technologies. Anything is possible. All I know how to do is fix stuff, but I do read up on all kinds of things so I can understand them better. I am happy my son is taking an active interest in science and I will continue to support that.

Originally Posted by Takeovers

hydrogen is not as easily stored

The statement should read, "we have never attempted to find new ways to store hydrogen because it would infringe on the oil money".


They do it for Saturn V rockets...WTF?

Originally Posted by Carrabow

The statement should read, "we have never attempted to find new ways to store hydrogen because it would infringe on the oil money".

Not true. Extensive research has gone into it for many decades. I have read an extensive study on it back in the 70ties and followed the technology since then. A H2 based economy is possible, no doubt. All required technologies have been developed and used in the chemical industry for many decades. But despite all efforts it is not very suitable for cars because of the restrictions of storage methods.

Originally Posted by Carrabow

They do it for Saturn V rockets...WTF?

Rockets are a very special case. Cryogenic H2 is used extensively in the space industry. But Cryogenic H2 is liquid only at a temperature of -259.2 °C that is 14°K. It is an energy consuming process to cool it down that far and it is impossible to keep it at this temperature for long. A rocket sitting on the launch pad loses H2 due to warming every minute. With rockets you can do that because it is an expensive technology anyway and the advantages outstrip the drawbacks.

The same does not apply to cars. In cars the disadvantages are far greater. Keep your car fueled up over night and you lose much of your tank content if you use liquid H2.

The second method is storage in gas bottles under pressure. That is the way they store it for welding. Those bottles are extremely heavy and the energy content is very limited compared to conventional fuels. The weight drives the fuel economy down and limits the range.

The third methods is storing the H2 in metal hydrides. The tanks are bulky and expensive. The capacity also limited and you need to heat them up after a stop because they release their content only when hot enough. Not a problem while driving because you can use the engine losses to heat the fuel but it delays the start process and you need to put energy in to get started. It is also a very slow process to fill them up.

So all three possible methods have serious drawbacks in every day use for cars. Liquid can probably be used for buses that run all day long and are empty over night. As I mentioned before it is probably much more economical to convert H2 into hydrocarbons for running cars and use existing infrastructure.

TO,

You must be an industrial engineer

Storing hydrogen in metal hydrides as described in the article linked to above, post # 71
has been a practice in use since the 1980s.

Turning H2 into hydrocarbons defeats the purpose of using a clean, renewable fuel source, and the cost of the process is far higher than simple electrolysis of water.
There is also the added cost of the carbon footprint incurred in that process.

There are no serious drawbacks in the storage methods you've described, any such are minimal.

The only two serious drawbacks in the whole future of hydrogen power is firstly the mindset of the public, who are largely unaware of the huge potential in hydrogen power, and secondly, the opposition of the petro/gas/diese/oil industry.

A hydrogen gas welder demo, home made!