Thread: Ex-Israeli prime minister heckled on San Francisco visit

the Illinois professor is entitled to interpret the Fourth Geneva Convention however he wants. Other people interpret it very differently.

we noticed that the Arabs never used it, even though it was passed in 1949, to claim settlements as being 'illegal' before 1997. Then suddenly, after Rabin got shot and the Oslo Accords - which never mentioned 'settlements' once - went bad, the Arabs and their cheerleaders, including him, started trotting it out.

it might have been an idea had the Arabs accepted, not just the 1947 partition plan,but the 2000 Camp David clinton Parameters too, then they wouldn't be in this mess, would they :

by the way, what the Arabs rejected in 2000 was :

1. An independent, internationally recognized and sovereign Palestinian Arab state

2. In 97% of the territories

3. Contiguous in Gaza and the "West Bank"

4. With Jerusalem as the capital of the nation state

5. Including the Arab neighborhoods of "eastern" Jerusalem and the Christian and Muslim sections of the old city.

6. With the so-called "right of return" to the nascent state

CC6. And a US$30 Billion fund to compensate and resettle "refugees".

Here's some questions

1: Why wasn't the Clinton Compromise "enough"? Did Arafat want another 3% = 70 square miles primarily inhabited by Jews - or nothing?

2: Why didn't Arafat make a counter-offer (traditional in negotiations done in good faith)?

3: Why was Arafat willing to make a Unilateral Declaration of Independence (UDI) on less than half the territory offered and without eastern Jerusalem and US$30 Billion in aid?

what more did they or do they want? What more can they possibly hope to get? Do they really think they can possibly hope to ever get anything more?

Wrong.

Hamas are just as bad as Israel.

Originally Posted by woodenshoe

^ you clearly have no sense of justice whatsoever..

what is it this time? same imaginary friend?

Kandil had a good job. When the manager left for vacations, he'd leave Kandil in charge. He became the manager's manager, really, in charge of the whole nature reserve. And he was making 6500 shekels a month - more than fifteen hundred dollars ! How could he leave a job like that ?

People in his village said that he should, during the first INTIFADA. His bosses got him a permit to come to Israel for work - that wasn't the problem. But he wasn't paying honour to the national struggle : how could he still work for the Jews ? He liked the idea of a country called Palestine, but not at the cost of his family's well-being. One of his sons had bad health problems - the boy couldn't do much of anything except make kids of his own, whose support, of course, fell to Kandil. So he kept on working.

Things improved once the Oslo peace process started. Arafat came back and the PA was installed - on a flood of money. But when Rabin was killed and everything turned sour - the martyr bombings started up, no-one had a job anymore, and Kandil stuck out like a man on a flagpole in a bad wind.


Men in masks came to his house and warned him to quit working for the Jews. One night, they left a Molotov cocktail at his door with a book of matches. His wife got scared and begged him to quit. Someone drove past his house and shot at it. He had no choice...so he wrote a letter to his bosses, telling them he couldn't make it to work anymore. They were sympathetic, but life goes on, they found a replacement, and gave Kandil a pension - after all, he'd been working for them for twenty three years.


So in 1996 Kandil was without a job, like almost everyone else. He took a few construction jobs - at least, while they were still building things in the West Bank. Or he'd sneak into Israel and fill in as a labourer for the Jews.

Kandil was away on a job when a man named Musa from the next village told his sons he wanted to talk to his father. When he came again, he said to Kandil - 'everybody knows you, and you have nothing to worry about. But the people from the Police Service in Ramallah would like to talk to you. Go tomorrow to the Muqata and have coffee with them.


He arrived at the compound at 10 am, and he sat on the stairs until six thirty in the afternoon. Then, three men in civilian clothes took him up to the third floor and into a small room, where they beat him without mercy for three hours. At ten o'clock, they picked him up off the floor, trussed his hands together behind his back, and trussed his feet. Then they hung him from a hook, head down, with his mangled face about a foot from the floor.


The next day the beating started again and went on all day. when the cops got bored they'd hang him from his hook again and go drink tea. Everyone who came hit Kandil. People who came to visit the guards - friends, just passing by - were invited to Kandil's cage, to hit him or kick him. To impress them, the Cops would show their friends how the real pros do it, with a thick doubled up electric cord - that was like getting hit twice at once.


Funny thing was, they didn't ASK ANYTHING. For sixteen days nobody asked anything, or told him anything - they just beat him. Then, they brought him a blank sheet of paper and they told him - 'Name, family name, and signature'. Kandil wrote down his name and signed.


One day, two Red Cross ladies turned up. One was German, the other an Arab who translated. They gave him soap, toothpaste and a little towel. But the guards had warned Kandil he was not to open, or touch, anything they gave him. The Red Cross was giving the PA sixteen dollars a day for each prisoner, which kept the jail in business.

The ladies couldn't do much for Kandil. He talked to them for an hour or so. He told them he didn't know why he was there, and he showed them the marks on his body from the beatings. The German lady started to cry.


The Red Cross would come once a month. Apart from that, Kandil's jailers did as they pleased. The worst beatings came at the beginning and end of each shift, when the senior ranks were present, and every guard had to show how avid he was for the work.


Finally, after months and months, a man called Ashraf turned up - a prosecutor, and big wheel in the PA, and told Kandil what he had done to cause offence to the Palestinian people. It turned out that Kandil had been involved in the kidnapping of two Hezbollah bigwigs who had disappeared from Lebanon ten years before. Though everyone knew it was the Israelis that snatched them, what the Palestinians wanted to know was who had ratted them out. Now, at last, that canker was settled - it was Kandil, despite the fact that he'd never been to Lebanon in his entire life.


Kandil had also organized the kidnap of twelve soldiers from the Jordanian legion, which would help to clear up a long - standing dispute between the PLO and the Hashemite monarchy there. He'd also murdered two young boys from the hills near his village and ALSO... he had fired a gunshot at a member of a powerful family there.


When he read the last charge, Kandil knew what had happened. It was the rival clan in his own village. One of their cousins had been shot at - and their honour required that someone must pay the price...and that someone was Kandil, who fifteen hundred dollars a month from the Jews had got him noticed.


When Kandil finished reading the charges Ashraf had put in front of him, he was taken back to his cage and hung upside down again, just like any other day, and in the morning, the beatings started again like nothing had happened. And so it went on, day after day.

Then one day, everything stopped. He was left hanging in his cell all day. There was no food, no shouts, no guards, no orders, nothing ! The shots outside had changed to big explosions - bombs or cannon shells, something tremendous, all day and night. And then the next night, at about seven PM, he heard it - HEBREW.. ! The Israeli Army had destroyed the Muqata, and the soldiers were searching through the wreckage.


There were one hundred and ninety six prisoners, and Kandil was the last to be found - they didn't get him off his hook until the other prisoners told the soldiers that there was a cage behind - a - door - behind - a - door, and that they'd missed one. Everyone was loaded onto trucks, and taken to an Israeli camp.
At four thirty in the morning, in the rain, the soldiers came with food - and every prisoner got two rolls, one with cream cheese and one with yellow cheese and yoghurt, a fresh bottle of clean mineral water, and an orange. And five cigarettes ! They didn't sell them on the street like the Palestinian Police did with the ten cigarettes a day the Red Cross provided the prisoners at the now destroyed Muqata with.


Then, daylight came, and everyone got a mattress and two blankets for their cot...and breakfast ! There was matzoh (unleavened bread), white cheese, tomatoes, peppers, five more cigarettes, and tea. And then they raised tents to keep out the rain, and made their beds, and then...lLunch ! There was chicken scvhnitzel, along with the matzoh. And it went on like that, every single day, for ten days, until the Israelis told him he was free, and he could go home.


A year later, Kandil was still amazed : 'If only a teth of the Palestinians behaved as the Israelis behaved,' he said, 'I want you to put it in your book : I don't wish for anybody - not even the ones from the other family - ever to fall imto the hands of those animals. You know, I used to be for a Palestinian State, I was in favour. Now I want the Israelis to wipe them out, and send them all to Hell'.




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Originally Posted by puppy
Wrong.

Hamas are just as bad as Israel.

Hamas is the RESULT of at least 65 years of injustice, NOT the cause...

Hamas is the RESULT of at least 65 years of injustice, NOT the cause.

I know that when you get out of bed and accidentally stub your toe in the morning, you want to blame that and anything else bad that happens on evil Israel and the Jews, but unfortunately for you, Hamas, like Al Quieda, is an offshoot of an organisation called the Egyptian Brotherhood, an organisation that has been terrorist, violent, and extremist from it's very beginning in 1928. It's part of a tide of Islamic fundamentalism that has swept across the Middle East and then later the rest of the world from 80 years ago. It's just the localised manifestation of a wider phenomenon and Hamas, or something very like it, would very much exist even if Israel did not.

I bet these bozos would like to think that if Israel suddenly announced they were throwing in the towel and relocating to Madadasgar, then the violent, fundamentalist, terrorist organisations like Hamas that want to impose their perversion of Islam on everybody else by force would disappear just like that.

Originally Posted by callippo

Hamas, like Al Quieda, is an offshoot of an organisation called the Egyptian Brotherhood,

Source, please.

Originally Posted by Panda

The US government could pull the reins in on the Israeli illegal criminal activities tomorrow if they choose to by simply pulling funding for the Israeli war machine.... Basically, the US led (so called) ME peace talks are a complete farce. How can USA as Israels primary military and financial backer claim to be an independent peacebroker? These so called peace talks are nothing more than stalling tactics designed to allow the US funded Israelis to tighten their grip on Palestinian territory.

Can't argue with any of that. I still don't understand the hold the Israeli lobby has on the U.S. Congress and President, past and present. It can't be some profound justice deserved by the State of Israel. And if it were just money...excuse me, election contributions...then there would be cracks appearing over the years, but the hold only seems to get tighter. This makes me think Israel is part of a long term strategic plan planted in the depths of U.S. long term policy. Entirely plausable, but that stategy seems to be leading us down the road of long term conflict. Which leads me to think that maybe we're just stupid.

40% of the worlds Jewish population live in USA. Almost as many as live in Israel. Jews in America account for less than 2% of the US population.

However Jews have vastly disproportionate representation in media control, finance and government. It has been said that the Jewish lobby controls the US government through their huge empire of media control. The extremely benevolent attitude of US governments (past and present), towards Israel seems to back up these allegations.

There is no stopping these vicious Israeli criminals, they gobble up more Palestinian land every day, and America- even the Obama administration- gives them protection and power to do so. Much of the world's unrest today stems from the Zionist theft of the land of Palestine and it continued murder and brutalization of its people. Heckled! They should have done more than that to him!

Originally Posted by sabang

I suppose the logical way forward, if the Netanyahu government continues to obfuscate and violate previous peace agreements, is to start cutting the purse strings, then reduce arms sales and diplomatic status. Obviously, the Right wing Netanyahu government would be toppled in the process, and replaced by a more reasonable and honest partner for peace- and a government that actually thinks about the long term existence of the nation, and it's people. The average Israeli, like the average Palestinian, is prepared to accept a viable Land for Peace deal in exchange for security.

So very simple and reasonable expectation. Modest in approach, considering Israeli intrangagence. But so very very far away. The reason:

Originally Posted by sabang

The US taxpayer is the stooge in all this, as usual.

We are a very well propogandized people, but without the advantage of knowing that we are propogandized at all, IMO.

it has been said that the Jewish lobby controls the US government through their huge empire of media control.

only by stormfront.com and the rest of them who publish lists of people that have executive positions in various US media concerns that have, to them, Jewish sounding names but who usually turn out not to be Jewish at all. Sorry buddy but that's straight out of antisemitism101.

the pro-Arab oil lobby has far more influence in Washington than any Jewish lobby. It was for this reason that the State department dragged its feet for years in wanting to recognise Israel in the first place back in the 1940s.

Originally Posted by callippo

only by stormfront.com and the rest of them who publish lists of people that have executive positions in various US media concerns that have, to them, Jewish sounding names but who usually turn out not to be Jewish at all. Sorry buddy but that's straight out of antisemitism101.

.

A quick Google of " Jewish control of US media" turns up 2 million, two hundred and twenty thousand entries. Passing such a vast and diverse collection of opinion off as pure anti semitism is rather simplistic and a very poor argument.

I suppose now you are going to start talking about the holocaust?

Google Arab control of US media and 13 million come up-so what. I must say callippo''s posts really are interesting and obviously not just 'knowledge' off the web like most people trying to back up their predudice against Israel.

Originally Posted by crazy dog

I must say callippo''s posts really are interesting and obviously not just 'knowledge' off the web like most people trying to back up their predudice against Israel.

We must be reading different posts then - because the majority of what I have seen from him in this thread is directly cut 'n pasted from other sources. Cut 'n pasted unattributed at that. Could it perhaps not simply be that you find them "interesting" because they support your own position.

Originally Posted by crazy dog

Google Arab control of US media and 13 million come up-so what.

Not on my computer it doesn't. You must be using a different Google to me.

In fact you would be hard pressed to find one serious article alleging Arab control of the US media.


Arab control of US media - Google Search=

You dont give your arguments much credibility by telling lies.

^ the only thing left to do when you run out of valid arguments.....

Although we will never beat the threads the with the words "shag or "nickers" in the title, i am glad to see the situation in the middle east is of much concern to many people. The highest number of replies and views on the forum home page so far...

Originally Posted by callippo

It was for this reason that the State department dragged its feet for years in wanting to recognise Israel in the first place back in the 1940s.

Very interesting. Source, please.

Not on my computer it doesn't. You must be using a different Google to me.

here in the Philippines just taking the 'of' out and googling 'Arab control US media' instead of 'Arab control OF US media' raises the number of replies from less than 2 million to more than 15 million, which only goes to show that you shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. Yes, it does depend on what google you use. There's around 180 nation states in the world.

esultang 1 - 10 sa halos 15,400,000 para sa arab control of us media . (0.29 segundo)

it was for this reason that the State department dragged its feet for years in wanting to recognise Israel in the first place back in the 1940s. Very interesting. Source, please.

National Archives Celebrates 60th Anniversary of the State of Israel

serious students of American government point to Truman's man-with-a-mission determination to recognise the state of Israel as probably THE textbook example of an elected President doing what the voters elected him to do, act the Chief Executive, and take control of foreign policy - in the process telling the rest of the government to quit second-guessing and go and fuck yourselves and do what you are told, I was elected to do this and you weren't.

Originally Posted by callippo

Not on my computer it doesn't. You must be using a different Google to me.

here in the Philippines just taking the 'of' out and googling 'Arab control US media' instead of 'Arab control OF US media' raises the number of replies from less than 2 million to more than 15 million, which only goes to show that you shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. Yes, it does depend on what google you use.

Guess you are connected to a different World Wide Web then. Is it Mars or Youranus?

In the blue corner we have the 'neo- zionists' such as calippo, quoting us ancient history, historical distortions, and suchforth. His point or agenda- Palestine is Israeli, the Occupation should continue, and the Zionist agenda (at it's most demented) is that Israel should keep expanding, into the Jordan, Lebanon, and Sinai. Dream on, sing to your own choir.

In the red corner, we have the Islamic nutters. Israel is to be destroyed, the Jews eliminated or driven to the four corners of the Globe (again). Yeh, dream on- sing to your own choir. Both nutters, at their most arcane, will even start selectively quoting Biblical or Koranic nonsense to 'support' their case.

Then we have the small matter of the rest of the World- the international community, the UN, the EU, US government, most Jews, most Palestinians, many Israeli political and military figures past and present, including Rabin, Sharon, the previous Israeli government, the current Israeli Opposition- who have all realised the Truth, and it's Inevitability.

So let them sing to each other on the Fringes- they never bore of it no matter how irrelevant they make themselves. The Real World has real business to conclude, and if the fringe loonies on both sides want to absent themselves from the process, fine.

If it all collapses in a heap, the long term joke is on Israel however- unless you are one of those Messianic Jews or Christians that are waiting for Armageddon I suppose.

Originally Posted by sabang

In the blue corner we have the 'neo- zionists' such as calippo, quoting us ancient history, historical distortions, and suchforth. His point or agenda- Palestine is Israeli, the Occupation should continue, and the Zionist agenda (at it's most demented) is that Israel should keep expanding, into the Jordan, Lebanon, and Sinai. Dream on, sing to your own choir.

In the red corner, we have the Islamic nutters. Israel is to be destroyed, the Jews eliminated or driven to the four corners of the Globe (again). Yeh, dream on- sing to your own choir. Both nutters, at their most arcane, will even start selectively quoting Biblical or Koranic nonsense to 'support' their case.

Both as bad as each other.

Originally Posted by sabang

In the blue corner we have the 'neo- zionists' such as calippo, quoting us ancient history, historical distortions, and suchforth. His point or agenda- Palestine is Israeli, the Occupation should continue, and the Zionist agenda (at it's most demented) is that Israel should keep expanding, into the Jordan, Lebanon, and Sinai. Dream on, sing to your own choir.

In the red corner, we have the Islamic nutters. Israel is to be destroyed, the Jews eliminated or driven to the four corners of the Globe (again). Yeh, dream on- sing to your own choir. Both nutters, at their most arcane, will even start selectively quoting Biblical or Koranic nonsense to 'support' their case.

Then we have the small matter of the rest of the World- the international community, the UN, the EU, US government, most Jews, most Palestinians, many Israeli political and military figures past and present, including Rabin, Sharon, the previous Israeli government, the current Israeli Opposition- who have all realised the Truth, and it's Inevitability.

So let them sing to each other on the Fringes- they never bore of it no matter how irrelevant they make themselves. The Real World has real business to conclude, and if the fringe loonies on both sides want to absent themselves from the process, fine.

If it all collapses in a heap, the long term joke is on Israel however- unless you are one of those Messianic Jews or Christians that are waiting for Armageddon I suppose.

I dont think its a standoff at the moment there Sabang. The Zionist settlers are encroaching further into Palestine every year. The conflict these days is not about Israels right to exist behind its own borders, but more about the theft of Palestinian land and oppression of Palestinian people. I cant see any end to the conflict in sight until USA butts out of it by ceasing to fund and protect Israel, and allows the UN Security Council to manage the situation.

Originally Posted by Panda

The Zionist settlers are encroaching further into Palestine every year. The conflict these days is not about Israels right to exist behind its own borders, but more about the theft of Palestinian land and oppression of Palestinian people. I cant see any end to the conflict in sight until USA butts out of it by ceasing to fund and protect Israel, and allows the UN Security Council to manage the situation.

Not likely to happen anytime in the near or distant future, as far as I can see.

Maybe a popular shift towards getting tough with Israel, but I don't see it coming without some strong leadership. Whatever the American people think of Israel unfiltered by the media is unclear to me. Even liberals make excuses for them. I think most Americans have made up their minds to like Israel with maybe some soft reservations here and there, but the reservations aren't enough to motivate learning more. It takes an effort to learn more on that subject since there is not one major news outlet that I know of that is fair and balanced on the subject.

The other thing that might happen is if the US is forced to change it's position on Israel. If it becomes too obvious what our support (with nothing in return) is costing us, either in money or national security, then maybe.... But again, there's no leadership against Israel here. To criticize Israel puts you on a list as suspect, probably extreme. The anti-semitism canard is never far away.

Eventually (this is speculation) Israel will do something that will clearly put USA's nuts in the fire. Then it wil be very obvious what this alliance is costing us. Then you might see some movement. Don't count on it, though.