Thread: CIA Report: Israel to fall in 20 years

Originally Posted by Butterfly

with that logic, most of Europe and Asia should go back to the Mongol

.....some already have.

Originally Posted by Blake7

Originally Posted by Butterfly

with that logic, most of Europe and Asia should go back to the Mongol

what a silly argument, Brit, as usual

What are you talking about?
Mongols were invaders - Asia and Europe was hardly "theirs" since the dawn of time.

England reclaiming France would be be a more accurate example....

The Moors would be a better {and accurate} example.

Originally Posted by britmaveric

^actually tis jews land since time began. I think its more likely the palestinians go elsewhere than Israel dissolve.

Actually not. Even the Bible talks about the Israelites, after their 40 years in the desert (actually building an army, if memory serves) invading the land of Canaan.

This from http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

According to the Bible, Moses led the Israelites, or a portion of them, out of Egypt. Under Joshua, they conquered the tribes and city states of Canaan. Based on biblical traditions, it is estimated that king David conquered Jerusalem about 1000 B.C. and established an Israelite kingdom over much of Canaan including parts of Transjordan. The kingdom was divided into Judea in the south and Israel in the north following the death of David's son, Solomon. Jerusalem remained the center of Jewish sovereignty and of Jewish worship whenever the Jews exercised sovereignty over the country in the subsequent period, up to the Jewish revolt in 133 AD.

In other words, they've taken the land from somebody else twice now.

The Bible shouldn't be a definitive source to interpretate history. As it might be considered a fairy tale. Much history, as we know it, is induced from fiction.

^ You mean,-- all those stories I learnt in Sunday School weren't true?!

Originally Posted by Rural Surin

The Bible shouldn't be a definitive source to interpretate history. As it might be considered a fairy tale. Much history, as we know it, is induced from fiction.

True. The Bible is lousy history. But defenders of Israel are always bring it up as historical justification and I think the taking of Canaan actually has some archeological data behind it.

The other thing, if you really want to go back that far or place some historical store on the Bible, is that the land of the ancient Isralites (Judea) was in fact a lot smaller than Israel is now. Somehow, when people use this 'getting our land back' justification, they conveniently overlook the fact that they didn't just take their land back, but also Samaria and parts of other neighbouring tribal lands that were never Judean.

Anyway I would think the Mossad is just about as tuned in to future events as the CIA, which don't really say to much because the CIA record of predictions is not exactly stunning, so there is a quite good chance that the Israelis will have a say in the OP matter.

It is pretty interesting to see the "westerners" here on the board cheering for the only real democracy in the region to disappear, Israel have made a reasonable peace with Egypt the only other country in that region with something resembling a western democracy, it could therefore be argued that if the other country's in the region was turned into democracy's, instead of being run by dictators and religious old fanatics, the whole region would have a chance of peace, good progress was made with the Palestinian authority before the Hamas hard-liners ruined it all.

It is probably forgotten how many times Israel bent over backwards to accommodate Arafats demands, and agreements where made, only to see Arafat run from said agreements because of pressure from the hard-liners within Fatah, and pressure from other fanatic nations outside that saw an interest in keeping the conflict alive and kicking. And not much on that account have changed today, it would be nice to see some of you protesting against the blatant non compromise meddling from said nations who when it comes to it, could not care less about the plight of the Palestinians, but act from a variety of selfish political and religious agendas, using the Palestinians as convenient pawns.

I'll bet you that Israel will be there in 20 years, but some of the religious dictatorships and dictatorships around might much more likely have changed significantly, just try to recap the last 20- 30 years even 50-60 years and count to yourself how many democracy's have fallen in that time? and how many dictatorships?

It is natural that changing demography in populations bring changes, but in 20 years Israel will still be a Jewish state in essence and a democracy, and the west and the US will never abandon Israel completely, US support for Israel have been going up and down with shifting Governments, and Israel will survive the Obama administration just like they survived Carter and Clinton.

Originally Posted by larvidchr

but in 20 years Israel will still be a Jewish state in essence and a democrac

It's only a quasi democracy now, because of the second class status of Arab Israeli citizens.

But really, if they want it to be an Israeli state in twenty years time (or even a state) why aren't they pursuing the two state solution?

Originally Posted by larvidchr

It is pretty interesting to see the "westerners" here on the board cheering for the only real democracy in the region to disappear,

Were you also opposed to cheering the fall of aparthied South Africa. Israel is not really so much different in that respect. They have been serial breakers of international law for years for refusing to get off of occupied land. Lawbreakers again for throwing people out of their homes and claiming their land as part of Israel. The question is why anybody would defend them for it.

Originally Posted by larvidchr

It is probably forgotten how many times Israel bent over backwards to accommodate Arafats demands, and agreements where made, only to see Arafat run from said agreements

A gross distortion repeated in the news media. Arafat was offered the West Bank without control of it's own borders, air space, roads, with outposts (settlements) scattered throughout. Not unlike what America did with the Native American populations.

Originally Posted by sabang

But really, if they want it to be an Israeli state in twenty years time (or even a state) why aren't they pursuing the two state solution?

This is the most salient question. Hawks like PM NutterYahoo would rather die than give up land that the IDF has spilt blood over. The West Bank and Gaza are considered part of the historic Jew homeland. A good proportion of the current coalition government, and not just the religious fundamentalist and settler parties, beleive in their devine right to a Greater Israel.

The long term Israeli position is to conflate the relatively simple issue of returning the occupied territories with an intractable problem which simply must be completely resolved before peace talks can begin.... At the moment the Iranian nuclear "crisis" fits the bill.....

Israel as the crushing victor has little interest in peace.

[quote=mad_dog;1207186]

Originally Posted by sabang

Israel as the crushing victor has little interest in peace.

USA sends $BILLIONS to Israel every year and has done so for decades.
It is no secret that USA is funding Israels war machine to the tune of $billions every year. A Conservative Estimate of Total Direct U.S. Aid to Israel: Almost $114 Billion
And no secret that USA uses its power of veto in the UN to trash every single motion attempting to halt Israels rein of terror and occupation of neighbouring territory. U.S. Vetoes of UN Resolutions Critical of Israel

It is therefore not simply ironic, but grossly hypocritical of USA to pose as a peacemaker in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict while Israel is a virtual military proxy of USA.

If it were not for USAs extravagant funding and protection of Israel, the Zionists would be back in their own country behind internationally agreed 1967 borders instead of illegally occupying foreign territory.
It is not Israel alone who is responsible for this gross injustice and flagrant breach of international law. US foreign policy support for Israel is the prime reason for the ongoing conflict while Israel illegally encroaches further into Palestinian territory.

The US government should be held accountable for their fundamental role in continuing this conflict.

^ Well, at least the Obama admin is now trying to play a tangible role in sorting it out, and getting Palestine formed. It won't happen overnight, but the international community is right behind him on this one.

Originally Posted by sabang

^ Well, at least the Obama admin is now trying to play a tangible role in sorting it out, and getting Palestine formed. It won't happen overnight, but the international community is right behind him on this one.

Seems to be a slight-of-hand ascending from Washington...

^ Do you mean the bit where US asked Israel not to expand existing settlements on occupied Palestinian territory and the Israelies reply to the US was that they would not concede to their request? Meanwhile the $billions in US military aid keep rolling into Israel even as they threaten to bomb Iran and cause a global oil crisis which would cost USA dearly.
The Zionists have the US politicians by the short and curlies through their control of the US media and so the US politicians will simply have to do as Israel tells them if they want to keep their jobs come next elections.

US peace negotiations in the conflict are nothing more than lip service and certainly not to be taken seriously by anyone, especially the Israelis.

Israel is the single largest recipient of US foreign aid. Around 2.5 $billion in 2008. Virtually all of which went directly to the Israeli militaries war machine.

While the international community is certainly almost unanimous in the UN in trying to force Israel to abide by international law, the one stumbling block there is USA blocking the UN Security Council through their power of veto.

USA has the power to bring a peaceful solution to the conflict at any time they want to simply by cutting off funding for Israeli military aggression and allowing the UN Security Council to function as the majority members would want it to. However the US politicians know Zionist controlled media in USA would destroy their careers if they did so.

The US led Middle East peace talks are just that, -- "talk" and nil action. Simply a stalling tactic which allows Israel to further encroach into Palestinian teritory with impunity under the protection and funding from USA.

42 years and nothing has changed...

BBC NEWS | Middle East | History of failed peace talks

Originally Posted by sabang

^ Well, at least the Obama admin is now trying to play a tangible role in sorting it out, and getting Palestine formed. It won't happen overnight, but the international community is right behind him on this one.

Every US administration have invested hugely in supporting Israel and at the same time been Trying to solve the crisis by sending one high profile envoy after the other to negotiate. The Obama admin is offering nothing new there.

But the biggest ever joint US army and Israel Army military exercise on Israeli soil going on these days, especially centred on defending Israel against missile attack, might send quite other signals to the enemy's of Israel don't you think !!

The only thing thats changed is the illegal Israeli Zionist settlements encroaching further and further into Palestinian territory under the protection of the Israeli military which in turn is funded by USA.

Originally Posted by larvidchr

The Obama admin is offering nothing new there.

Not really- it's just taking a more active role in prodding the recalcitrant Israeli government. What a joke that the Bush admin 'efforts' were though.

Originally Posted by Panda

biggest ever joint US army and Israel Army military exercise

Didn't even know that was happening- but I think it's a pretty obvious signal that, while the US is serious about getting a Peace deal between the Pali's and Israeli's, it also continues to stand behind the security of Israel. Not sure whether the primary message is to the enemies of Israel, or the population of Israel.

[quote=Panda;1207581]

Originally Posted by mad_dog

Originally Posted by sabang

Israel as the crushing victor has little interest in peace.

USA sends $BILLIONS to Israel every year and has done so for decades.
It is no secret that USA is funding Israels war machine to the tune of $billions every year.

The U.S bribed the despot dictator Anwar Sadat by offering Egypt 2/3s of whatever aid Israel recieves per annum. Sadat accepted the cash and recognised Israel and began a kleptocratic, brutal, dictatorship in a country which had been the center of Islamic culture and learning for a thousand years.

This move was reviled by his countrymen and a group of army officers led by the Islambouli brothers gunned Sadat down (Thanks to God's will one of the brothers, Shakwi(s.p) still lives as a free man in the land of Jihad; Afghanistan) Sadly Hosni Mubarak was able to carry on the cozy little dictatorship deal while the lives of ordinary Egyptians became less and less cozy.... Of course little facts such as these were overlooked when the "neo cons" sought to bring "freedom" and democracy to the Middle East by attacking former client dictators who were no longer towing the Company line....

^ well said,

^^ Dirty deals done not so dirt cheap.

Interesting and good points throughout, but we all know the US will never let Israel fall.

Whoever controls that region, Israeli or Palestinian, will get the full support of the West. It's strategic location is the reason why Israel has been supported for all these years in the face of overwhelming opposition.