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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by granite View Post
    Standard for Electrical Wire Installation for Thailand 2545 (with Revision 1 2551). This is the Thai electrical code and it governs, among other things, all electrical wiring in the home.

    If you, or anybody else, has ever seen this code or has a copy of it, please let me know.

    To ground the (consumer unit) entire installation, the ground busbar must be connected to a ground rod (other grounding electrodes are allowed by regulation, but they’re almost never used in domestic installations). Regulation requires that the ground rod be at least 2.4 meters long, 5/8-inches in diameter (which is about 15 mm), and made of solid copper or copper-clad steel (electroplated, not a copper sheath pressed onto a steel rod). Electroplated earth electrodes are not recommended. A copper sheathed steel rod is recommended (copper sheath is at least 1mm thick). The size of the wire that connects the ground rod to the ground busbar in the consumer unit depends on the size of the service conductors (the mains), but for almost all domestic installations it must be not smaller than 10 mm2.

    The last element for a properly-grounded appliance is this: the neutral service conductor (the neutral wire running from the meter to the consumer unit) must be grounded at the consumer unit. How? The neutral service conductor must connect to the ground busbar in the consumer unit. Then, a short wire the same size as the neutral service conductor must be run from the ground busbar to the neutral terminal of the main breaker. This is called the main bonding jumper in Thai- and USA-regulation parlance, and you can look it up on the internet to read more about its importance in grounding.

    This is not always the case in Thailand. Many areas DO NOT have the "star point" (neutral) of the supply transformer solidly earthed. For example, in many locations around Pattaya, it is eveident that an M.E.N. (Multiple Earthed Neutral) connection is required whereas in other locations, the M.E.N. system doesn't exist & if an M.E.N. connection is made, it will be a safety hazard.

    Note that grounding a water heater (or any appliance) by connecting it to its own ground rod, as is sometimes seen in Thailand, is dangerous and prohibited by regulation. All grounding wires for appliances, luminaires, and receptacle outlets must run back to the consumer unit and connect to the ground busbar.

    The above is very good advice. Multiple ground/earth rods can be very dangerous.

    Earth Leakage Breaker Instantaneous water heaters have a built-in earth leakage breaker (ELB), also referred to on some units as an earth leakage circuit breaker (ELCB) or residual current device (RCD). I’ll use the term RCD because that’s the term used in the Thai electrical code. The built-in RCD was required by the 2545 version of the electrical code. Revision 1 to the code, which is now in force, has a more a stringent requirement. It is no longer enough to have an RCD built into the water heater—now, the entire branch circuit must be protected by an RCD. This requirement pertains to whirlpool tubs also, incidentally. There are a few ways to do this. First, the entire consumer unit can be protected by an RCD either with an external RCD, an RCD built into the consumer unit, or an RCD main breaker. Second, an RCD circuit breaker can be installed for the water heater branch circuit. Third, an RCD can be installed in the water heater branch circuit wires outside the consumer unit. This is a bad idea. All common protective devices must be installed at the main switchboard/consumer unit.
    By regulation, the RCD must have a trip current not greater than 30 milliamperes (mA). All RCDs marketed for domestic use in Thailand meet this requirement. However, better to use an RCD with a lower trip current if one is available. RCDs with lower trip currents are available from some manufacturers. Square D markets RCD circuit breakers with a 10 mA trip current, and Safe-T-Cut has RCD-protected consumer units with trip currents adjustable down to 5 mA, for example.

    Adjustable RCD's are prohibited for domestic use in many countries. I would suggest that an adjustable RCD not be used for domestic installations.

    Safety Breaker It is customary in Thailand to install a switch for the water heater outside the bathroom. The switch is usually a so-called safety breaker. This switch is not required by regulation.

    Just to clarify, this is NOT a "safety breaker" purely because it is not a circuit breaker. It is simply an isolator...a switch.

    Recommendations for Fixing an Installation In a house with significant wiring deficiencies, what can be done to make instantaneous water heaters more safe? The easiest way to reduce the electrical shock hazard from a water heater is to install an RCD to protect the water heater branch circuit. If there is currently a safety breaker installed outside the bathroom for the water heater, it will be easiest and cheapest just to swap it out for an RCD safety breaker. Haco markets RCD safety breakers under the name Earth Leakage Breakers. Use a 16-ampere circuit breaker for a 3500-watt water heater, a 25-ampere breaker for a 4500-watt heater, and a 32-ampere breaker for a 6000-watt heater. Alternatively, if you have a Square D consumer unit, you can replace the circuit breaker for the water heater with a Square D RCD circuit breaker with a 10 mA trip current. Bad idea. Most water heaters etc develop increasing "residual leakage" over time. Use a minimum 30mA unit, which must trip at 30mA or can trip at between 15mA & 30mA.
    The worst thing about Thailand is that it has a horrible mixture of the European system & the American system. Essentially, Thailand uses the European system of electricity. Unfortunately, it also uses the awful American colour code, which exists in only a few countries.

    Last but not least, you now have learnt that people on Teakdoor don't give 2 hoots about electrical. Perhaps that's why the membership is not increasing? Everybody is getting electrocuted.
    Oh for fucks sake! Get a life & stop trying to fuck mine up!

  2. #52
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    After doing many renovations and rewires here, I would like to add a warning to anyone tinkering with an existing installation.

    DO NOT assume that the water heater breaker is connected to the mains after the main switch. Quite often wire strippers here will connect the live side of the breaker directly to the mains wiring coming into the house to save a bit of copper. This means the next protective device between you and electrocution is the pole fuse and they are much less sensitive than even the most basic circuit breaker.
    ~Glennerd~

  3. #53
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    The worst thing about Thailand is that it has a horrible mixture of the European system & the American system. Essentially, Thailand uses the European system of electricity. Unfortunately, it also uses the awful American colour code, which exists in only a few countries.

    You obviously have a lot of expertise in this area. Why is the European colour system better?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrAndy
    they do sell cheap rubbish, but you can choose to pay a little more
    Try telling that to tesco's but mostly my local shop...they only generally have one type...they also state that they have a circuit breaker on it...so it wasn't that cheap...but that didn't seem to work..

    I have recently complained to the owner of the house and she stated that the prevoius owners had Air-'con'-- (ain't that the truth...paying for air!!! cold or not..no way for me...some like it hot)-- and when it was removed the electrics went up the spout..(not her words of course)-- I asked the neighbours..they said there electric's were just the same!!! Lying little bitch...

    She also stated that the house and street were quiet..well I'm sure we've all heard that one before????

    Sounds like Battersea dogs home...when the bitches are in season....needless to say I'm looking for another house to stay in!!!

    I'm sure that place will be "nee up" as well...

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humbert
    Why is the European colour system better?
    Thats an easy one to answer, in America they use black and white cables, both black and white are not colours, in Europe we use brown, blue and green with yellow bits? These are colours

  6. #56
    Thailand Expat lom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydog
    Thats an easy one to answer, in America they use black and white cables, both black and white are not colours
    They are races aren't they?
    And the white has all the power while the black has zero.

  7. #57
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    Humbert's Avatar
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    Make sure your electrician isn't colour blind.

  8. #58
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    > They are races aren't they?
    > And the white has all the power while the black has zero.

    See, that's counter-intuitive. In Europe, my electrical installations teacher explained it to me why the live one is brown. He started by asking if anyone knew why Negroes have brown skin... well that's because they touched the live wire, which is therefore colored brown.

    That raised a few eyebrows, but nobody in that class ever forgot, especially not the black guys in that class.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteLotusLane View Post
    > They are races aren't they?
    > And the white has all the power while the black has zero.

    See, that's counter-intuitive. In Europe, my electrical installations teacher explained it to me why the live one is brown. He started by asking if anyone knew why Negroes have brown skin... well that's because they touched the live wire, which is therefore colored brown.

    That raised a few eyebrows, but nobody in that class ever forgot, especially not the black guys in that class.

    were they waiting outside later?

  10. #60

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    Its probably a good learning technique, bit like blue to the left and brown to the right on plugs.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humbert View Post
    The worst thing about Thailand is that it has a horrible mixture of the European system & the American system. Essentially, Thailand uses the European system of electricity. Unfortunately, it also uses the awful American colour code, which exists in only a few countries.

    You obviously have a lot of expertise in this area. Why is the European colour system better?
    I don't have a lot of expertise...I have a huge amount of expertise!!!

    It is not about one system being better than the other. It more about which system is more predominant than the other. Also, it is about mixing certain power distribution systems with the Thai system (the Thai system is predominately European & not American).
    Everyday, more & more products are imported to this country. This country has no official "electrical import" standard. The internet is the enemy here.
    Each item that is NOT manufactured in the USA, may have IEC colours as the active, neutral & earth. Mind you, the USA has adapted to European standards a long time ago.
    IEC colours as follows;

    1] Protective earth - Green/yellow
    2] Equipotential bonding - Green/yellow
    3] Neutral - Black or light blue
    4] Active - Any colour other than green, yellow,
    green/yellow, black or light blue

    Please be aware that the USA is not the "be all" & "end all" of everything. In this case, it is the minority. The NEC (National Electrical Code) is testimony to this. It won't be long before the USA must change to Metric as well as adopt a "universal" way of thinking, which includes the electrical world.

  12. #62
    Excommunicated baldrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikehunt
    Please be aware that the USA is not the "be all" & "end all" of everything. In this case, it is the minority. The NEC (National Electrical Code) is testimony to this. It won't be long before the USA must change to Metric as well as adopt a "universal" way of thinking, which includes the electrical world.
    I know he has flounced - but I only just read this

    I wonder if his sweeping statement has taken into account the way the Chinese do their electrical ?
    has he with his "huge" amount of experience encountered Chinese electrical installations ?

  13. #63

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    I had to do some plumbing work today, one of the jobs was sorting out a water heater, had a quick look at it and there was nothing wrong with it visually so I took it down to the shop to be repaired, turns out one of the circuit boards and the water sensor needed replacing.

    So I take it back to the house to refit it, this is a nice water heater by the way, big old 6kw jobby with a nice big red wire, nice big blue wire and a nice big green and yellow wire, go into the bathroom and there is only 2 wires a blue one and a black one now logic would dictate that the blue is nuetral and they need to be connected, I was a bit shocked to find it was live, seems Thai logic is slightly different to normal logic, so I had a look in the circuit breaker unit, they had breakers in there with red, white, black and blue wires spurring off of them, the nuetral bar was just as colorful, turns out my wire starts off white coming out the breaker and is then joined to a blue bit of wire for the run, probably best to turn down any electrical jobs on this building

  14. #64
    nikitatolstoy
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    Nice post with wonderful product description. But I can't trust on these because I am afraid of electric shocks. Thanks for sharing with us.

  15. #65
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    yeah, DD knows which side his bread is buttered

    the yellow side

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikehunt View Post
    Here's my instantaneous hot water heater. It's a Mazuma MIS-45 (4.5kW). The web address is »ÃÐÇѵԤÇÒÁà»ç¹ÁҢͧºÃÔÉÑ· MAZUMA

    The first 2 pics are of my water heater.





    The below pic is about the "ELCB".

    Sorry about the poor quality pics but the writing says, "Warranty 2 years. Heater made in UK. ELCB Breaker."

    This pic below shows the "earth" wire, which is black.



    The pic below is of the cables going into/out of the Distribution Board (DB) in the Electrical Riser on my floor (12th floor). There are no signs of an earth cable/earth cables. There is, however, one cable that is sheathed in green sleeving. I don't know where this goes & no other cables seem to connect to it inside the DB. Therefore, there is not an effective earth for my hot water unit.



    In Thailand, which has a disastrous mixture of both American & European electrical standards, the wiring colour code can be confusing.
    In some cases, it follows the American method...black = hot (live/active), white/grey = neutral. For the European standards, an active/live/hot can be red, white, yellow, blue, or brown. Earth is always green or green with a yellow stripe.

    One of the biggest problems (with single phase installations) in Thailand is that live/neutral polarity is not checked & in many cases not observed. If these 2 wires are incorrectly connected, someone can die very easily.


    BTW, "ELCB" stands for Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker. Technically, these devices were voltage dependant & were to a great degree, unreliable. They have since been replaced with RCD's (Residual Current Devices), which act in a totally different manner to ELCB's. The problem is that many people still incorrectly describe RCD's as being ELCB's.
    My heater is a RINNAI......... Japan and has a button which says ELCB test. What does this mean, what if i press the button ?...........Hell, scared now, think i will have to wash in the toilet bowl .

  17. #67
    Revenant Rodent Thetyim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Dave
    what if i press the button ?
    It will trip the cut-out and stop power to the shower unit.

    You can reset it by pushing the knob back in again.

  18. #68
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    How can I check if what I am grounding to is actually a good ground ?

    and why is it bad to have multiple grounding points ?

    When I was in Guatemala they sold shower heads that heated the water, these were made in Brazil and were very popular since they only cost $10 US in the local Home Pro type shop,
    like this one on ebay
    Electric 220V Tankless Water Heater SHOWER HEAD 10105P1 - eBay (item 300456907558 end time Aug-22-10 1811 PDT)

    I bought a 110v one to use here in the USA and want to install it out by the pool,

    thanks for your help

    BK

  19. #69
    Nostradamus
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    I am going to fit a proper 'rain' shower in the bathroom.

    What I need to know is will it require an electric pump and how do I get both the hot and cold water to the taps?

    I have no knowledge about this kind of stuff. Water pressure in the bathroom is pretty decent, but I am not sure that is enough. I would also like the system to run to the kitchen sink, just a few feet away.

    Advice?

  20. #70
    Thailand Expat terry57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKKdreaming View Post
    How can I check if what I am grounding to is actually a good ground ?
    In Aus one can buy a testing light that shins bright when the earth is correct and strongly earthed. I've had one for years.

    If I was you I would hunt out a reliable electrician to test your gear specially if you know shite about electrics.

  21. #71
    Thailand Expat terry57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nostradamus View Post
    I am going to fit a proper 'rain' shower in the bathroom.

    What I need to know is will it require an electric pump and how do I get both the hot and cold water to the taps?

    Water pressure in the bathroom is pretty decent, but I am not sure that is enough. I would also like the system to run to the kitchen sink, just a few feet away.

    Advice?
    If you have decent water pressure just connect it up and check it out. If there's not enough pressure you will need to get a plumber to add an electric booster pump fitted to a pressure switch, then a spark to wire it.

    No big deal in Thailand as things are piss cheap, the trouble being getting someone you can rely on to do a proper job.

    As far your taps you will need to fit a mixer as its know in the trade, the plumber just reroutes the pipes into the mixer ( Tap ) Piece of piss.

    Maybe not a piece of piss, will more than likely have to cut your wall to make hot and cold water meet the mixer.

  22. #72
    Nostradamus
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    Cheers Tel. So a mixer is needed. The wall is likely being rebuilt anyway so not an issue. I want to get the proper equipment installed while the walls are getting built so there's no mucking about afterwards.

  23. #73
    Nostradamus
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    Got a Fagor multi-point water heater and an electric booster pump plus mixer taps which I reckon will do the job and on the advice of the people in the store can send hot water to the shower and the sinks. Maximum three outlets/points.

    Unfortunately our electrician says "it will be too hot" and reckons it isn't good for the shower which I say is bollocks.

    I may need to jettison this spark and find another that knows his stuff when it comes to fitting and plumbing these systems.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nostradamus
    Unfortunately our electrician says "it will be too hot" and reckons it isn't good for the shower which I say is bollocks.
    judging by the amount of water going through a shower rainhead, it will not be hot enough on cold evenings

    no problem anyway, if you have a mixer just adjust it

  25. #75
    Nostradamus
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    The problem appears to be he just doesn't know how to install it. I have drawn a diagram, but he is still not confident...

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