Thread: Deaths on Koh Phi Phi

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Whatever killed those tourists, its very, very very unlikely to be cyanide poisoning from casava.

And, as a second point, if you really had been breathing "cyanide dust", you would be very unlikley to be posting now.

Actually, low-level exposure of cyanide compounds in cassava dust is a well-known problem for those living near, or working in, cassava processing facilities. And low levels don't usually kill you, and you recover once removed from the area (or when sun goes down and some dust is blown away in low-pressure cooler air of night).

"Exposure to lower levels of cyanide for a long time may result in breathing difficulties, heart pains, vomiting, blood changes, headaches, and enlargement of the thyroid gland. People with high blood cyanide levels have also shown harmful effects such as weakness of the fingers and toes, difficulty walking, dimness of vision, deafness, and decreased thyroid gland function…."


My symptoms were breathing difficulties, headaches, weakness, and overall malaise—I could hardly walk--all of which went away when the sun went down and much of the science-fiction-yellow-orange, surreal dust clouds covering our Thai village were somewhat dispersed.

Okay, so we've ruled out cyanide from cassava on Koh Phi Phi. How about: "Sodium cyanide is used commercially for fumigation, electroplating, extracting gold and silver from ores, and chemical manufacturing". Just what exactly was being dumped into the 'water treatment plant' that ran by the rooms of the victims?

Good point about the AC not working if there had been a leak.

Originally Posted by dirtydog

erm, Ryans first story told how the air con killed her, would hardly call his wild bloggings as credible.

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

“The most reliable source of insight we have into what may have happened is Ryan, quoted (elsewhere).

Just for the record, I never said Ryan was credible. I was quoting someone else who said he was.

Looks like there is a good chance there is lots of cyanide available by the gallon on places like Koh Phi Phi, which could have found its way into the victims by eating the fish killed by it, drinking water or other beverages tainted (deliberately or not) with it , or breathing high concentrations of it—or swimming in it, too?---or a combination of those things. Why would a Thai bother with regular methods to fish if he could simply release a bunch of cyanide into the water? By using cyanide you can be home in time to start drinking in the afternoon instead of waiting until evening. Couple this with the fact that Thais don’t use toilet paper--they use their bare hands to wipe and there is usually no soap in restrooms--and you can start calling Thailand LOS where the ‘S’ doesn’t stand for ‘Smiles’ anymore. Or call it ‘LOT’, “Land of Toxins”. Or both, ‘LOTS’, ‘Land of Toxins & S--T’.

“Fishing

“Cyanides are illegally used to capture live fish near coral reefs for the aquarium and seafood markets. This fishing occurs mainly in the Philippines, Indonesia, and the Caribbean to supply the 2 million marine aquarium owners in the world. In this method, a diver uses a large, needleless syringe to squirt a cyanide solution into areas where the fish are hiding, stunning them so that they can be easily gathered. Many fish caught in this fashion die immediately, or in shipping. Those that survive to find their way into pet stores often die from shock, or from massive digestive damage. The high concentrations of cyanide on reefs on which this has occurred has resulted in cases of cyanide poisoning among local fishers and their families, as well as damage to the coral reefs themselves and other marine life in the area.


“Insecticide and pesticide

“Cyanides are used in pest control, as a fumigant in the storing of grain, and as an insecticide for the fumigating of ships. Cyanide salts have been used as rat poison, and for killing ants.”

Cyanide - New World Encyclopedia

Originally Posted by dirtydog

erm, Ryans first story told how the air con killed her, would hardly call his wild bloggings as credible.

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

“The most reliable source of insight we have into what may have happened is Ryan, quoted (elsewhere).

Mr Kells has never stated he knows what killed Ms. St. Onge. He has written that he thought it was the air in the room from the smell and was surmising he wasn't as ill because he was leaving the premises. He also speculates if the water treatment plant could be involved. Hardly, " ..wild bloggings.."
SO he is guessing and states so plainly.

HIs bloggings are that of a man who has lost a loved one suddenly and is not getting too much cooperation from Thai authorities. Unfortunately his status as
" friend" of the deceased did him no favors as the US Embassy would not share information with him while he was still in the country.

I believe he is deserved of sympathy.

Need to look for a serial poisoner who does it for kicks, methinks.

Cherchez le butler.

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

Just for the record, I never said Ryan was credible. I was quoting someone else who said he was.

And, for the record, I never said he wasn't credible. He may indeed be very credible, and that the air conditioning as possible factor in the sickness needs to be ruled out in a careful way. Freon from a leaking AC has been known to poison people.

This thread has some interesting speculation and possible causes of Jill St. Onges death. I don't know if Ryan and Jill's family will ever really find out what killed her.

Ryan is credible, as he was guesstimating what could of killed her, based on his surroundings and ruling out of factors.

Here we have a special forensic team descending, a full three weeks AFTER the deaths.

Note how this report undermines the following Phuket Gazette report that quotes authorities stating preliminary results has food poisoning to blame


Phuket Police Lead Laleena Forensics Probe - Phuket Wan

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Laleena Guesthouse owner Rat Chuped: something they ate or drank
Photo by phuketwan.com







Click a thumbnail to view more photographs

Phuket Police Lead Laleena Forensics Probe

By Chutima Sidasathian
Monday, May 25, 2009
A SPECIAL forensics task force of 15 police, led by a senior officer from Phuket, was involved in taking fresh samples from the Laleena Guesthouse on Phi Phi over the weekend.

Early in May American Jill St Onge, 27, and Norwegian Julie Bergheim, 22, fell ill while occupying adjoining ground-floor rooms 4 and 5 at the guesthouse, suffered similar vomiting attacks, and died within hours of each other at the holiday island's hospital.




Police General Nappadon Kantakanit told Phuketwan today that he assembled the latest investigation team, which included specialists from Phuket and Krabi provinces.

The return to the guesthouse for a complete forensics check came at the request of senior Royal Thai Police in Bangkok.

It is believed officials from the US and Norwegian embassies have been pressing for a resolution of the cause of death of the two young tourists as soon as possible.

''We checked the locality and the rooms where the women fell ill,'' General Nappadon said. ''We took away various spray cleaners and a vacuum cleaner, and the air-conditioning filters.''

Today he called Prince of Songkla University in Haad Yai, capital of Songkla province, and arranged for laboratories there to conduct tests on all the samples from the guesthouse.

The Governor of Krabi, Siwa Sirisaowalak, said he was not aware of the new police investigation. He has previously urged newspapers not to speculate about the cause of death, and to await the results of existing tests.

Police Lieutentant Pontanan Sangtong, who is based on Phi Phi, remains in charge of overall investigations.

At different times since the women died in early May, Public Health department officials, including epidemiologists from Bangkok, have also taken samples in and around the Laleena Guesthouse and checked the two rooms.

Bangkok laboratory tests continue on blood and tissue samples taken from the women's bodies. Samples were also taken for testing commissioned by the St Onge family in the US.

Laleena Guesthouse owner Rat Chuped believes the women died from something they ate or drank and has rejected suggestions that she should close the establishment until the cause is known.

Jill St Onge was travelling with her fiance, Ryan Kells, at the time, while Ms Bergheim was sharing her room with a younger Norwegian woman.

All four occupants of rooms 4 and 5 fell ill, but only two survived.

According to General Nappadon, the Norwegian survivor has told police of a ''bad smell'' at the time all four occupants of the rooms fell sick.

The water treatment plant nearby appeared to not be the source, he said, because other houses and guesthouses were closer to it than the victims at Laleena.

This report has "preliminary autopsy results" pointing to food poisoning- so why were authorities taking forensic sample of the room 3 days ago ?

And what about the reports of the survivors of a" bad smell? "

Food poisoning or toxic fumes- Food poisoning or toxic fumes, Who will win the battle of the Phi Phi Deaths, Thailand tourism or Thailand tourists ?

Phuket: Food poisoning linked to Phi Phi Island tourist deaths


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Monday, May 25, 2009

Phi Phi tourist deaths possibly food poisoning

The Laleena guesthouse on Phi Phi Don Island, Krabi.

A section of a filthy canal, about 200 meters from the guesthouse, that channels sewage to a nearby treatment plant.

PHUKET CITY: The mysterious deaths of two female tourists on Phi Phi Island earlier this month were possibly caused by food poisoning, preliminary lab findings suggest.

Krabi Provincial Police Commander Maj Gen Pasin Noksakul told the Gazette today that researchers at the Police Institute of Forensic Medicine in Bangkok have found signs of microbial infection in blood samples taken from the bodies of 27-year-old Jill St Onge from the US and Norwegian Julie Bergheim, 22.

Gen Pasin said results from the Forensics Institute were preliminary and not yet official. He was unable to say whether the infectious agent or agents were viral or bacterial, but said he was told by the institute that both women’s blood contained microbes consistent with those that cause food poisoning, likely from contaminated seafood.

The two women, who stayed in adjacent rooms at the Laleena guesthouse on Phi Phi Don Island at the beginning of May, died within hours of each other at Phi Phi Island Hospital after severe vomiting.

In blood samples taken from Ms Bergheim the researchers found three different kinds of potentially harmful microbes, while blood samples from Ms St Onge had only one, he said.

Although it is not normal procedure to release results until they are official, Gen Pasin said he wanted to quell widespread speculation over the cause of the deaths on Internet blogsites and chat forums.

Such theories have included exposure to toxic gas from a nearby wastewater treatment plant, problems with the air conditioning in the guest rooms, accidental overdoses of the 4 X 100 drug cocktail that has been gaining popularity in the south over the past year and even murder by poisoning.

The Forensics Institute is continuing to study the microbes to positively identify them and test their virility, he said.

“I don’t know when the official results will be released, but the commander of the Royal Thai Police has ordered the lab work expedited because the embassies of the two deceased tourists want to know the cause of the death as soon as possible,” he said.

Gen Pasin ruled out the possibility that [methane] gas emanating from the nearby wastewater treatment plant might have been the cause, saying the plant had been in the area for a long time with no ill effects on local people or tourists.

“Had a dangerous gas spread into the guesthouse, many more people would have been affected,” he said.

The blue water tank, draining off an exposed external surface is of interest.

There is a factory in the background, as well as a lot of local runoff. My thoughts would be towards some type of water contamination, if this water was provided to guests, instead of a sealed water bottle.

No-brainer actually - the pipe leading into the water tank feeds off the top floor surface - it seems. If this is the case, has anyone checked for floor-cleaner chemicals & the use of this water?

I can't see 20something european tourists drinking or brushing their teeth in anything but bottled water..

Originally Posted by MustavaMond

Are we back to contaminated water bottles?

Does this tie in with the report issued recently on chemicals leaching from plastics?

I have never heard of those leaching plastics causing acute (sudden, severe) illness like that. But, then again, that would be my experience from western countries talking. No telling what the poison-happy Thais are capable of putting into the plastics of re-usable water bottles. Remember, these are the people who routinely leave used, open pesticide bottles laying about in their yards and businesses—or use them as water ‘buckets’ for their animals--who spray (defoliate) their yards with poison because it is quicker than mowing the grass; who never wear protective clothing when they spray poison all day long in the rice fields; who pour gallons of cyanide into the waters near coral reefs to catch fish that are then served to tourists; and who routinely burn plastic garbage bags and bottles in their front yards. (Burning plastics releases cyanide gas which is why a high percentage of those dying in fires die from inhaling cyanide before they are burned.)

Thailand tourist's lung tissue 'gone' after mysterious death - CNN.com
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SEATTLE, Washington (CNN)





-- A pathologist hired by the family of one of two women whose mysterious deaths in Thailand drew worldwide attention says her "lungs were 100 percent congested," Jill St. Onge's fiancee and brother said.
Jill St. Onge died while vacationing with her fiance at a Thailand resort.









"He said her lung tissue was gone," said her brother, Robert St. Onge.
The pathologist has not determined what caused her lungs to fail, he said, and a final report on her May 2 death may still be weeks away.
But members of St. Onge's family said they feel the pathologist's findings, though preliminary, are enough to contradict public statements made by Thai investigators that St. Onge was the victim of food poisoning.
"I am 99.9 percent sure she did not die of food poisoning," said Ryan Kells, St. Onge's fiancee, who was with her when she died. "She suffocated to death. I am not a doctor, but I know when someone can't breath."
Kells and St. Onge, both artists from Seattle, were on a three-month vacation through Southeast Asia when they arrived on Thailand's Phi Phi Island.
They had gotten engaged while on the trip and were keeping friends and family up to date with their adventures.
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• Deaths at Thai resort trouble family, investigators
• Seattle woman died mysteriously at Thai resort

"Having a blast," Jill St. Onge, 27, wrote about the surroundings in a blog dedicated to the couple's travels. "Food, drink, sun and warm waters ... what else do ya need?"
The couple's vacation ended tragically when Kells found his fiancee in their hotel room vomiting and unable to breath. He rushed her to a hospital where she died.
St. Onge was healthy and there was no obvious explanation for her sudden death, her brother said.
Just hours after St. Onge fell ill, Julie Bergheim, a Norwegian tourist who was staying in a room next to St. Onge's at the Laleena Guesthouse, came down with similar symptoms. She also died.
According to Thai media reports, police there are focusing on food poisoning as the cause of the women's deaths. Monday the Phuket Gazette quoted a police commander as saying blood samples from both women indicated possible food poisoning from seafood.
Still, the commander said, those results were only preliminary. "I don't know when the official results will be released," Maj. Gen. Pasin Nokasul told the newspaper. "The lab work [is being] expedited because the embassies of the two tourists want to know the cause of death as soon as possible."
Kells response to Nokasul's statement was harsh.
"That she died of food poisoning is a ridiculous statement to make," he said, adding it is unlikely they would have been "the only ones affected."
Dr. William Hurley, medical director for the Washington Poison Center, is also skeptical that food poisoning could have been responsible. In food poisoning cases, he said, "usually what kills you is the dehydration, not the toxin."
He added, "Food poisoning is not something that typically kills someone this quickly. It takes days."
Ingestion of a variety of chemicals could have caused Onge and Bergheim's sudden deaths, Hurley said, and could be consistent with the condition of Onge's lungs. But without further information, he said, it is impossible to say what killed the two women.
Kells said he thinks something in the hotel where they were where staying made Jill sick. He remembers a "chemical smell" in the room and thinks he avoided becoming ill because he spent less time in the room.
On Saturday, the Phuket Wan newspaper reported that investigators that visited the Laleena Guesthouse, taking samples and removing filters from the air conditioning units in the rooms where both victims had stayed.
Rat Chuped, the owner of the hotel, told the newspaper her property was not to blame. "There is no problem with my guesthouse," she said.

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[ Note the present tense..]

things that can cause pulmonary edema and vomiting that the victims could have been exposed to


bleach (hypochlorites)

carbon monoxide—was a vehicle left running outside room?

pesticides (organophosphates and carbamates)—we’ve already shown in this thread how these poisons are everywhere in Thailand causing massive illnesses, deliberate and accidental.

formaldehyde—ubiquitous in Thailand where they use it to ‘preserve’ those sausages tourists eat, for example.

esters (as used in, for example, plastics)

anhydrides

cyanide can easily come fromsmoke inhalation during house and/or industrial fires in which plastics (acrylonitriles, polyurethanes), wool, or silk are burned. Were there plastics etc being burned near their room? Did they eat fish saturated with the cyanide sprayed in ocean?

Isocyanates Although the two chemical names are similar, no cyanide is used to make or is present in isocyanate products from Bayer. In addition, no cyanide will be released during the normal use of isocyanate products. However, cyanide can be produced from isocyanates by heating to decomposition and/or burning. In fact, burning any nitrogen-containing material, even those that were not made from isocyanates, can produce some hydrogen cyanide. Some examples of these nitrogen-rich materials not made from isocyanates are: epoxy/polyamide coatings.

Abstract:
A 9-year-old child presented with documented organophosphate insecticide poisoning. His course was initially complicated by a tachyarrhythmia with QT-interval prolongation that responded promptly to intravenous magnesium. However, following partial recovery, he developed progressive acute respiratory distress syndrome characterized by irreversible fibrosis and obliteration of the lung parenchyma.Journal of Paediatrics & Child Health. 38(5):530-532, October 2002.

Delayed or inadequate treatment of organophosphate poisoning can lead to prolonged (months) or permanent neurotoxic symptoms. Respiratory failure is the most common etiology… Organophosphate compounds used as nerve gas for warfare are particularly potent. They cause death more rapidly and frequently than the organophosphate compounds used as pesticides. …. effects include hypotension, bradycardia, and excessive pulmonary and/or GI secretions.

http://www.boli.state.or.us/DHS/ph/e...rt/hazards.pdf is a good look at ricin, cyanide and pesticide poisons, both ‘regular’ and military (warfare) grade.

Originally Posted by MustavaMond

-- A pathologist hired by the family of one of two women whose mysterious deaths in Thailand drew worldwide attention says her "lungs were 100 percent congested," Jill St. Onge's fiancee and brother said.
….
Dr. William Hurley, medical director for the Washington Poison Center, is also skeptical that food poisoning could have been responsible. In food poisoning cases, he said, "usually what kills you is the dehydration, not the toxin."
He added, "Food poisoning is not something that typically kills someone this quickly. It takes days."
Ingestion of a variety of chemicals could have caused Onge and Bergheim's sudden deaths, Hurley said, and could be consistent with the condition of Onge's lungs. But without further information, he said, it is impossible to say what killed the two women.
Kells said he thinks something in the hotel where they were where staying made Jill sick. He remembers a "chemical smell" in the room and thinks he avoided becoming ill because he spent less time in the room.

It would be helpful if Dr. Hurley could enumerate exactly which poisons are capable of causing the damage seen in the victims. Sure, it is speculation at this point, but knowing a full list of possible poisons would enable those in Thailand to do some checking. Further, it is not only ingestion of chemicals but also breathing or via skin contact that could have been a route into the body.