Thai real estate in the doldrums

**FailSafe** · 19-03-2010, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Spin

Originally Posted by FlyFree

Holding real estate over the long term is a losing proposition, investment-wise

Absolute tosh!

Originally Posted by FailSafe

Now Spin can post about what a foolish amateur I am

Anybody that talks about 30+30+30 land leases is a foolish amateur, whoever they are. Until you change your stance on the matter, that's the way folks in the know will regard you.

As far as the 30-30-30 deal, I still believe it would hold up if it's attached to the chanote itself (where it would follow the chanote regardless of who currently holds it- if you know a little about how deeds work here you'll know what I'm talking about- think about it the way a bank lien is attached to a deed- your [company] name would actually be on it with the lease agreement, which a potential future owner would be bound to accept), and not just a personal agreement between lessor/lessee, which would potentially die with the landlord (my lawyer agrees as well to the point he feels he could make a reasonable argument in court, though he said he wouldn't bet his life on it).

Until it's been tested in court (which won't happen for years), your saying 100% that I'm wrong is just as incorrect as me saying I'm 100% right.

I concede you may be correct here, but you can't say it for a certainty.

**FailSafe** · 19-03-2010, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by robuzo

Aside from Beadles clutching his pearls in moral indignation (a sentiment that is kind of laughable in a place like this), it is not so much that foreign real estate investors are criminals- that is at least debatable, and by those standards so are all the foreign lawyers I know around town, not to mention the hundreds (at least) that I don't; the problem is that as a foreigner investing in real estate here you are playing a dangerous game that hinges on doing end runs around certain rules that are designed to keep you out of the game in the first place. Plenty of people get away with it, just as plenty of businessmen in this country get away with doing things that aren't exactly covered by the terms of their work permit, but as soon as they wind up in some sort of dispute, or someone playing from the elevated end of the field just decides to mess with them, they quickly find out they are pretty much screwed. Why bother when you can legally invest in real estate or do business in countries that don't stack the deck against foreigners? I suppose it is because the bigger the gamble the greater the possible reward- but the thing is, in Thailand you are gambling (as opposed to taking a calculated risk in a game with transparent rules) and the risk is severe, even to the point, as some people have discovered too late, of being bad for one's health.

I can't dispute what you're saying here, other than to say I am fortunate to have some family connections that would help me if such a potential situation arose.

As far as doing my business here goes, I live here, and I'll retire here, and it's the easiest place for me to do my business (and it's where I can keep an eye on my interests).

**robuzo** · 19-03-2010, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by FailSafe

I can't dispute what you're saying here, other than to say I am fortunate to have some family connections that would help me if such a potential situation arose.

As far as doing my business here goes, I live here, and I'll retire here, and it's the easiest place for me to do my business (and it's where I can keep an eye on my interests).

Well then, more power to you. So far as I can tell, Thailand is all about what one can get away with. . .actually, not only Thailand- corruption exists everywhere- but it is top to bottom here. It's delusional to pretend otherwise; maybe at some point in the future something like rule of law will take over, but as of now, to paraphrase the old sophist argument, justice in Thailand is the will of the powerful and the connected. Some people thrive in that kind of environment, and on the Thailand moral outrage continuum, with casting a couple hundred people adrift at sea in an open boat at the high end and slipping the traffic cop a couple of red notes at the low, I'd say profiting from, shall we say, gray areas in real estate law lies squarely in the realm of things not to get too upset about.

**Airportwo** · 19-03-2010, 02:07 PM

[quote=FailSafe;1361914]

Originally Posted by robuzo

As far as doing my business here goes, I live here, and I'll retire here, and it's the easiest place for me to do my business (and it's where I can keep an eye on my interests).

Not interested in getting into the rights and wrongs of real estate ownership, BUT Mr Failsafe you and others like you ruined a place I used to really really like - hope your proud!

**FailSafe** · 19-03-2010, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Airportwo

Not interested in getting into the rights and wrongs of real estate ownership, BUT Mr Failsafe you and others like you ruined a place I used to really really like - hope your proud!

Sorry to have ruined Thailand for you- let's not blame the Thais themselves who are the primary benefactors.

**robuzo** · 19-03-2010, 02:40 PM

Anybody feel like fixing the quote(s)? People might get the idea I'm doing bidness here.

**FailSafe** · 19-03-2010, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by robuzo

Originally Posted by FailSafe

I can't dispute what you're saying here, other than to say I am fortunate to have some family connections that would help me if such a potential situation arose.

As far as doing my business here goes, I live here, and I'll retire here, and it's the easiest place for me to do my business (and it's where I can keep an eye on my interests).

Well then, more power to you. So far as I can tell, Thailand is all about what one can get away with. . .actually, not only Thailand- corruption exists everywhere- but it is top to bottom here. It's delusional to pretend otherwise; maybe at some point in the future something like rule of law will take over, but as of now, to paraphrase the old sophist argument, justice in Thailand is the will of the powerful and the connected. Some people thrive in that kind of environment, and on the Thailand moral outrage continuum, with casting a couple hundred people adrift at sea in an open boat at the high end and slipping the traffic cop a couple of red notes at the low, I'd say profiting from, shall we say, gray areas in real estate law lies squarely in the realm of things not to get too upset about.

Again, I agree with you- it's real estate, and foreigners can do business here via an unenforced technicality.

If I had to, I could do business through my wife's name (and sometimes I do) as there are no trust issues between us (she is welcome to everything I have anyway)- I prefer not to have to involve her in everything I do.

**FailSafe** · 19-03-2010, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by robuzo

Anybody feel like fixing the quote(s)? People might get the idea I'm doing bidness here.

Done- sorry about that.

Can't help you with the other one.

**robuzo** · 19-03-2010, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by FailSafe

If I had to, I could do business through my wife's name (and sometimes I do) as there are no trust issues between us

That's all well and good until she finds out you ruined Thailand.

**FailSafe** · 19-03-2010, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by robuzo

Originally Posted by FailSafe

If I had to, I could do business through my wife's name (and sometimes I do) as there are no trust issues between us

That's all well and good until she finds out you ruined Thailand.

My wife knows this country was on a downward spiral long before I got here- she only blames me for localized disasters (many of which I am responsible for...)

**FailSafe** · 19-03-2010, 02:53 PM

Anyway, I had my say (as did a few others)- I'm gonna bow out of this thread before a mod takes a bite out of me for it (edit- ok, I lied).

Good luck to anybody else here who is testing the real estate waters- I like hearing success stories.

I also look forward to the day I can refer to a few million baht as a 'paltry' amount like Beadle (you'd need what- 500-600mil to be able to do that?)

**Warwick** · 19-03-2010, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by FailSafe

As far as the 30-30-30 deal, I still believe it would hold up if it's attached to the chanote itself (where it would follow the chanote regardless of who currently holds it- if you know a little about how deeds work here you'll know what I'm talking about

Up to you what you believe but the land office in Hua Hin refuses to pass any leasehold document other than for 30 years max, the reason being that anything else is unenforcable under current Thai law.

**FailSafe** · 19-03-2010, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Warwick

Originally Posted by FailSafe

As far as the 30-30-30 deal, I still believe it would hold up if it's attached to the chanote itself (where it would follow the chanote regardless of who currently holds it- if you know a little about how deeds work here you'll know what I'm talking about

Up to you what you believe but the land office in Hua Hin refuses to pass any leasehold document other than for 30 years max, the reason being that anything else is unenforcable under current Thai law.

As far as current Thai law goes, it does allow for a personal agreement of another 30 years (though enforcement could be problematic if the owner dies or sells the land).

Section 540: 'The duration of a hire of immovable property cannot exceed thirty years. If it is made for a longer period, such period shall be reduced to thirty years. The aforesaid period may be renewed, but it must not exceed thirty years from the time of renewal'.

Are you referring to a personal agreement (between two parties apart from the chanote) or something specifically attached to the chanote? If it's attached to the chanote the land office can't refuse it (as they would have had to approve the attachment in the first place).

Like I said, I believe it's possible, but until it goes to court the jury is out- maybe I'm wrong.

Personally, I would never enter into a long-term lease anyway (for a home- for a business it's a different story), nor would I recommend it to anyone else- I would make a purchase through a company, which I think is a safer option (there are those that would disagree)- if I were doing a long lease, however, I would certainly make sure I was as protected as possible- if it turned out later I was screwed after 30 years, at least I would know I tried to do what I could at the beginning (though that would, admittedly, be 'cold comfort').

**Beadle** · 19-03-2010, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Dude, don't worry about him -- typical expat windbag, who excels at not achieving anything, and is envious and bitter to those who actually decide to succeed.

Maybe you should stick to the best place to get 500thb short-times and let the rest of us discuss expat affairs.

Originally Posted by FailSafe

it's real estate, and foreigners can do business here via an unenforced technicality.

No, it's still illegal. You are just circumventing the Thai law which is very clear as I have explained earlier.

Originally Posted by FailSafe

As far as the 30-30-30 deal, I still believe it would hold up

It wouldn't, but then you have vested interests in believing so and telling others it would.

**Beadle** · 19-03-2010, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by FailSafe

I would make a purchase through a company, which I think is a safer option

Still illegal though. Forming a company to purchase land to circumvent the foreign land ownership law in itself is an offence, as is using a majority foreign owned Thai company limited to own land (even minority 39% or more foreign ownership will be considered a foreign company and you won't be able to transfer any titles through the land office).

**Beadle** · 19-03-2010, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by FailSafe

As far as current Thai law goes, it does allow for a personal agreement of another 30 years

Your argument breaks down when you consider it is only binding when registered at the Land Office. And as pointed out earlier, 30 years is the maximum allowable by law.

**FailSafe** · 19-03-2010, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Beadle

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Dude, don't worry about him -- typical expat windbag, who excels at not achieving anything, and is envious and bitter to those who actually decide to succeed.

Maybe you should stick to the best place to get 500thb short-times and let the rest of us discuss expat affairs.

Originally Posted by FailSafe

it's real estate, and foreigners can do business here via an unenforced technicality.

No, it's still illegal. You are just circumventing the Thai law which is very clear as I have explained earlier.

Originally Posted by FailSafe

As far as the 30-30-30 deal, I still believe it would hold up

It wouldn't, but then you have vested interests in believing so and telling others it would.

You don't "know" anything, and I have no "vested interests" as I am not involved in a long-term (30 years) lease, nor do I intend to be (you're making yet another assumption)- you gave your opinion- I'm going by what I know of Thai real estate law and what my personal experience doing business here has taught me, and I gave my opinion (and I'm interested in the subject now as I think it may be possible if done correctly)- you're married to a position (that I concede might be correct) because too much of your ego is tied to it, and you have more of a need to try and belittle others than to actually see someone else's point.

You need to understand the difference in Thai law between "personal rights" and "real rights" (which I don't think you do)- I believe there is a way through legally setting up "real rights" on a land deed to allow for a longer lease period (in essence ownership in practical terms).

**FailSafe** · 19-03-2010, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Beadle

Originally Posted by FailSafe

As far as current Thai law goes, it does allow for a personal agreement of another 30 years

Your argument breaks down when you consider it is only binding when registered at the Land Office. And as pointed out earlier, 30 years is the maximum allowable by law.

Not if "real rights" are conferred via the chanote- I don't think you really understand what I'm talking about here (you're referring to a personal agreement, which is not the same thing).

**FailSafe** · 19-03-2010, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by Beadle

Originally Posted by FailSafe

I would make a purchase through a company, which I think is a safer option

Still illegal though. Forming a company to purchase land to circumvent the foreign land ownership law in itself is an offence, as is using a majority foreign owned Thai company limited to own land (even minority 39% or more foreign ownership will be considered a foreign company and you won't be able to transfer any titles through the land office).

Yes, yes- you've made that clear, and you've already stated how you're looking forward to seeing people have trouble over this.

Still, a company is a better choice over a lease (especially with your feelings about the lease term).

**Beadle** · 19-03-2010, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by FailSafe

Yes, yes- you've made that clear, and you've already stated how you're looking forward to seeing people have trouble over this.

Sure, why should criminals be afforded sympathy?

Many foreigners come to Thailand and mock the country by breaking laws they think don't have to apply to them.

In the 20 odd years I have been in and out of here this foreign contingent of undesirables has grown, and continues to grow considerably.

Only a matter of time before the bubble bursts.

**FailSafe** · 19-03-2010, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Beadle

Originally Posted by FailSafe

Yes, yes- you've made that clear, and you've already stated how you're looking forward to seeing people have trouble over this.

Sure, why should criminals be afforded sympathy?

Many foreigners come to Thailand and mock the country by breaking laws they think don't have to apply to them.

In the 20 odd years I have been in and out of here this foreign contingent of undesirables has grown, and continues to grow considerably.

Only a matter of time before the bubble bursts.

Ah- now I'm a "criminal".

Yep, I'm an "undesirable"-you've nailed me.

How many Thais do you employ? I'm up to close to 100.

Ah, well, when the name-calling starts, I generally consider the argument won (unless I'm the one calling names, in which case I generally concede I've lost).

Nice debating with you- it was certainly enlightening.

**Beadle** · 19-03-2010, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by FailSafe

How many Thais do you employ? I'm up to close to 100.

My Dad's tank is bigger than your Dad's tank.

Originally Posted by FailSafe

Ah, well, when the name-calling starts, I generally consider the argument won

Yeah, I considered it "won" when you started having digs about my status about 2 pages ago.

It was a knockout when Dafty intervened on your behalf though.

Originally Posted by FailSafe

Ah- now I'm a "criminal". Yep, I'm an "undesirable"-you've nailed me.

Hardly a hardened criminal, but that's where it starts. You disregard the laws you don't like or think that don't matter, deliberately circumvent the laws in fact. Just shows a lack of respect for the host nation.

**FlyFree** · 19-03-2010, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by FailSafe

Originally Posted by FlyFree

Real estate, anywhere, is only a good investment in small bursts of time, and has to be timed right. Holding real estate over the long term is a losing proposition, investment-wise. Much better long-term investments around.

Investing in real-estate in Thailand is probably one of the most risky investments any foreigner can make, read stupid. Buying a condo to live in, well there are arguments to be made for that, though renting still makes much more sense from so many angles. But investing in a condo is stupidity.

Why is it stupid? I doubled my money in a few years investing in real estate on Samui- I saw that was happening with the market, made a couple of smart buys, and got out when the signs of prices topping out were reached.

What you said about "small bursts of time" is as true in Thailand as it is anywhere else (and yes, I already know what many people on TD have to say about buying through a company here- I'm glad I didn't listen to them).

If I had invested the same money in the States, I probably would have lost ~25% of my investment value, and would be holding onto a piece of property waiting for the market to rise so I could hopefully get out even.

If I can do it, any other foreigner can do it as well- you have to be careful and do your due diligence.

Now Spin can post about what a foolish amateur I am.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. 'Short bursts of time' is basically speculating. In terms of real estate that could be a couple of years. What I mean with investing is over the long term. Over the long term, if you hold property as an investment, you won't get the returns you can get elsewhere.

Long-term investment in a Thai condo, note investment not buying a place to live full time for say 20 years, is plain stupidity IMHO, taking Thailands prospects and legal uncertainties into account, even ignoring the build quiality that would probably have your condo start falling apart after 5. Why bother taking the risks if there is so much better to be had elsewhere. Buying to live in, well still stupid here IMHO, renting in Thailand just makes sense on so many levels.

I wuz just being brief. Assumed ppl had some idea of the differences. Basically I've said exactly what i said above, just more words. I try and speak briefly, my keyboard is wearing out.

**FailSafe** · 19-03-2010, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by Beadle

Originally Posted by FailSafe

How many Thais do you employ? I'm up to close to 100.

My Dad's tank is bigger than your Dad's tank.

Originally Posted by FailSafe

Ah, well, when the name-calling starts, I generally consider the argument won

Yeah, I considered it "won" when you started having digs about my status about 2 pages ago.

It was a knockout when Dafty intervened on your behalf though.

Originally Posted by FailSafe

Ah- now I'm a "criminal". Yep, I'm an "undesirable"-you've nailed me.

Hardly a hardened criminal, but that's where it starts. You disregard the laws you don't like or think that don't matter, deliberately circumvent the laws in fact. Just shows a lack of respect for the host nation.

My point is you make your ~2mil a year, and what do you give back?

As far as digs go, you started it on this thread, not me- that's the third time you've tried to come after me without provocation (I have no problem with being disagreed with, and I'm not always right, but you prefer an 'ad hominem' approach rather than tackling the issue directly).

I have a "lack of respect" for you and your "holier-than-thou" attitude, I'll give you that, but I'm just going with the flow as far as business in Thailand is concerned- I'm not circumventing anything, I'm working within a (flawed) system.

**Beadle** · 19-03-2010, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by FailSafe

As far as digs go, you started it on this thread,

Nowhere on this thread have I insulted anyone or made personal comments aside from in my response to Dafty's unprovoked personal attack upon myself.

I have merely posted facts and my opinion which you have taken exception to and thrown your toys from the pram.

Originally Posted by FailSafe

As far as digs go, you started it on this thread, not me- that's the third time you've tried to come after me without provocation (I have no problem with being disagreed with, and I'm not always right, but you prefer an 'ad hominem' approach rather than tackling the issue directly).

Again, I have only posted facts and my opinion on this thread, which you have taken exception to.

Stop being so precious and taking it personally.

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