Thread: The Libyan Crisis

ICC - ICC Prosecutor to open an investigation in Libya


Statement: 02.03.2011

ICC Prosecutor to open an investigation in Libya

On Thursday 3 March 2011 International Criminal Court Prosecutor, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, in accordance with the requirements under the Rome Statute will announce the opening of an investigation in Libya.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1970 (2011) provides jurisdiction to the International Criminal Court over the situation in Libya since 15 February 2011. As per the Rome Statute, the Prosecutor shall proceed with an investigation if there is a reasonable basis to believe that crimes falling under the ICC jurisdiction have been committed.

Following a preliminary examination of available information, the Prosecutor has reached the conclusion that an investigation is warranted.

Tomorrow at a press conference in The Hague, the Prosecutor will present an overview of the alleged crimes committed in Libya since 15 February 2011 and preliminary information as to the entities and persons who could be prosecuted and put them on notice to avoid future crimes.

The Office of the Prosecutor is liaising with the United Nations, the African Union, the Arab League, as well as States. Additionally, the Prosecutor will also request information from other sources including from Interpol who will provide assistance. The Prosecutor will act independently and impartially.

The next step is for the Prosecutor to present his case to ICC judges who will then decide whether or not to issue arrest warrants based on the evidence.


Source: Office of the Prosecutor

obviously the ICC has now other priorities than investigating the ridiculous claims brought forward by Amsterdam and paid for by Thaksin

^
I think you'll find "we're too busy" doesn't in itself constitute grounds for not proceeding.

France24 - Gaddafi loyalists mount counter-attack in east Libya

Gaddafi loyalists mount counter-attack in east Libya


Troops loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi have recaptured the eastern town of Brega after violent clashes with rebel forces, marking the biggest military success for Gaddafi loyalists since the start of the uprising.

By Cyril VANIER in Benghazi (video)
News Wires (text)

REUTERS - Forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi have recaptured a town in Libya's mostly rebel-held east, rebel military officers said on Wednesday, in an attempt to break the momentum of a popular rebellion against his 41-year-old rule.

Forces sent by the Libyan leader had seized back Marsa El Brega after violent clashes with rebels who had controlled the town 800 km (500 miles) east of the captial Tripoli, the rebel officers told Reuters.

"It's true. There was aerial bombardment of Brega and Gaddafi's forces have taken it," Mohamed Yousef, an officer in the town of Ajdabiyah which is about 75 km (47 miles) from Brega, told Reuters on Wednesday.

The assaults are the most significant military success for Gaddafi since the uprising began two weeks ago and and set off a confrontation that Washington says could descend into a long civil war unless the veteran strongman ruler steps down.

<snip>

"We are going to keep the pressure on Gaddafi until he steps down and allows the people of Libya to express themselves freely and determine their own future," Susan Rice, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, told ABC's "Good Morning America".

Captain Faris Zwei, among officers in the east who joined the opposition to Gaddafi, said there were more than 10,000 volunteers in Ajdabiyah, a short distance from Marsa El Brega.

"We are reorganising the army, which was almost completely destroyed by Gaddafi and his gang before they left," he said. "We are reforming, as much as we can, the army from the youth that took part in the revolution."

Two amphibious assault ships, USS Kearsarge, which can carry 2,000 Marines, and USS Ponce, entered the Suez Canal on Wednesday en route to the Mediterranean. The destroyer USS Barry moved through the canal on Monday as part of efforts to increase diplomatic and military pressure on Gaddafi to quit.

The two ships entered through the southern end of the canal, an official said, adding that they were expected to pass through by 3:30 p.m. (1330 GMT) or 4:00 p.m. local time.

Arab League foreign ministers meet on Wednesday at an extraordinary session in Cairo and are expected to reinforce their condemnation of Gaddafi. Some delegates want the meeting to underline the League's unwillingness to see foreign intervention in Libya.

The repositioning of U.S. ships and aircraft closer to Libya is widely seen as a symbolic show of force since neither the United States nor its NATO allies have shown any appetite for direct military intervention in the turmoil that has seen Gaddafi lose control of large swaths of his country.

<snip>

US rules nothing out

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said: "Libya could become a peaceful democracy or it could face protracted civil war."

The U.S. Senate, in a unanimous vote, approved a resolution "strongly condemning the gross and systematic violation of human rights in Libya, including violent attacks on protesters demanding democratic reforms".

The White House said the ships were being redeployed in preparation for possible humanitarian efforts but stressed it "was not taking any options off the table". Gates said: "Our job is to give the president the broadest possible decision space."

French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe sounded a note of caution, saying military intervention would not happen without a clear United Nations mandate.

British Prime Minister David Cameron, who said Britain would work with allies on preparations for a no-fly zone over Libya, said it was unacceptable that "Colonel Gaddafi can be murdering his own people using airplanes and helicopter gunships".

General James Mattis, commander of U.S. Central Command, told a Senate hearing that imposing a no-fly zone would be a "challenging" operation. "You would have to remove air defence capability in order to establish a no-fly zone, so no illusions here," he said. "It would be a military operation."

<snip>

The United States has frozen $30 billion in Libyan assets.

Libya's National Oil Corp said output had halved due to the departure of foreign workers. Brent crude surged above $116 a barrel on Tuesday as supply disruptions and potential for more unrest in the Middle East and North Africa kept investors edgy.

(Edited out bits to avoid repetition from earlier reports..click the link to see the full version)

Originally Posted by OhOh

A SC resolution would never happen because some of the members actually believe in the rights of sovereign states.

I think you will find that the countries that believe that the rights of sovereign states extends to killing their own citizens, libyan style would comprise a list of the must odious countries from around the world. china is one of those countries so it's veto would make you right, bit I'm not convinced that this is a good thing

^^ It is now reported (John Simpson, BBC, who is there) that Brega has been recaptured by the anti-Gaddafi forces.

Originally Posted by hazz

a list of the must odious countries from around the world

Are you suggesting that the, as defined by you, less odious countries would allow armed groups to overthrow the government without firing on the armed insurgents. Would they also allow foreigners to assist and arm the insurgents.

I would suggest they would start with "kettling", then tear gas and water cannons, then riot police attacks. At this stage the the "insurgents" would arm themselves with whatever was available. In some countries arms are held by some or are available easily. The mobile networks and landlines (Internet) would be switched off.

This has already happened in a number of the "less" insidious countries in the last year. France, Greece, UK, Germany and the US.

The next step is not so far away. Pro government v insurgent clashes, paving slabs, Molotov cocktails. French aircraft carriers/Chinese container ships turning up with containers full of "aid". Armed police on the streets/airports/ports becoming twitchy.

Doesn't take much for the police, who have today been informed that they must take a pay and conditions cut in the UK, to start realising where their allegiance lays.

Read the comments pages from the UK national papers, the telegraph ( the most pro army/government paper) is full of posters, 80%, telling the army/navy/airforce not to get involved with another illegal war. The Guardian and Independent are similar. The Washington Post similar.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

^^ It is now reported (John Simpson, BBC, who is there) that Brega has been recaptured by the anti-Gaddafi forces.

If it's on the BBC it must be fact then.

Airstrikes in Brega, Libya

As Libyan air force pilots still loyal to Gaddafi drop bombs on the oil-rich town of Brega in the north of the country, armed Gaddafi opponents encircle his loyalists in the center of the town.

Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley describes the situation from just outside the town in the north-east of the country.

An airstrike narrowly misses opposition forces - and Al Jazeera reporters - outside Brega [Picture: [at]evanchill]

There have been no confirmed reports of the Libyan air force bombing the rebels.

Not yet anyway. The mad man Gaddafi is capable of using such brutal force as a last ditch effort if cornered though. Quite probably the threat of the international community imposing a no fly zone over Libya is the main thing stopping him from attacking the rebels with his airforce, as a no fly zone would completely decimate his airforce and deny Gaddafi of his last ace card when his back is truly against the wall.

Battle rages over Libyan oil port - Africa - Al Jazeera English

"Libyan forces have launched repeated air raids during the two-week revolt but all of them have been reported to target facilities that store weapons in areas controlled by the rebels"


Battle rages over Libyan oil port The Libyan air force bombs Brega as fighting between pro-Gaddafi forces and opponents continues.


"
The Libyan air force has bombed the oil refinery and port town of Marsa El Brega as battles between forces loyal and against Muammar Gaddafi continued to rage in several towns across the North African country.
"We just watched an air force jet ... fly over Brega and drop at least one bomb and huge plumes of smoke are now coming out," Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley said on Wednesday.
The warplane from Gaddafi's air force struck a beach near where the two sides were fighting at a university campus.
witness said the blast raised a plume of sand from a dune but caused no casualties, apparently an attempt to scare off the anti-Gaddafi fighters besieging regime forces in the campus"

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

on the oil-rich town of Brega

The built up area, the beach, the airport, the weapons dump, or the oil storage. Which is it?

Originally Posted by Panda

no confirmed reports of the Libyan air force bombing the rebels

So no massacre of the missile equipped rebels.

Originally Posted by Panda

Quite probably the threat of the international community imposing a no fly zone over Libya

Maybe the fact that Libya has Russian supplied S200 and S300 anti-aircraft missile defences has something to do with it.

Originally Posted by Panda

target facilities that store weapons

Originally Posted by Panda

bombed the oil refinery and port town

Originally Posted by Panda

Gaddafi's air force struck a beach

Originally Posted by Panda

We just watched an air force je

The report talks of one aircraft and one bomb, must be a pretty large bomb to take out all four at once.

Your youtube report is labelled "Missile Strike near Bega" is this a Libyan missile or a "friendly fire" mistake from the US, the UK, the Dutch or the Egyptians, all of which are reported to have military forces in the area.

A few inconsistencies in the media reports Eh?

Gaddafi's loyalists have captured the port and the harbour near the township of Brega. Reports indicate little of no resistance at the refinery which is reportedly still operating with a reduced staffing.

The refinery and harbour are tactical prizes of great economic importance to both sides.
The township of Brega itself is surrounded and under siege. It has been reported that supplies are running low in the town with no milk available to feed the babies.
It would appear that the refinery and harbour were the real targets of the recent government thrust while the rather half hearted assault on the town was simply a distraction rather than the way it is being reported in the world media as a great victory for the rebels.

There have been no reports of the airforce bombing the rebels, merely reports of one or two bombs dropped one a beach near where the rebels were massed.

Originally Posted by Panda

Gaddafi's loyalists have captured the port and the harbour near the township of Brega. Reports indicate little of no resistance at the refinery which is reportedly still operating with a reduced staffing.

The refinery and harbour are tactical prizes of great economic importance to both sides.
The township of Brega itself is surrounded and under siege. It has been reported that supplies are running low in the town with no milk available to feed the babies.
It would appear that the refinery and harbour were the real targets of the recent government thrust while the rather half hearted assault on the town was simply a distraction rather than the way it is being reported in the world media as a great victory for the rebels.

There have been no reports of the airforce bombing the rebels, merely reports of one or two bombs dropped one a beach near where the rebels were massed.

My apologies, the rebels in Brega did indeed beat back the pro Gaddafi forces.
It is the town of Zawiyah that is surrounded and under siege.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/20...04/140140.html

Libyan officials bar reporters from leaving hotel

Tripoli braces for mass anti-Gaddafi protests

Friday, 04 March 2011


A Libyan civilian hold anti aircraft ammunitions at an army barrack in Benghazi

Al-Bayda, LIBYA (Agencies)

Protesters demanding the departure of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi plan to hold mass protests in the capital Tripoli following the weekly prayers on Friday.

Tripoli has been relatively calm under a deadly crackdown with a reported wave of arrests, killings and disappearances by paramilitaries loyal to Gaddafi’s regime.

We are preparing to pay this price of preventing you guys from reporting to avoid turning Tripoli into Baghdad Govt spokesman Mussa Ibrahim

Libyan authorities blocked foreign journalists from leaving their hotel to report on expected protests after Friday prayers.

When journalists including Reuters reporters tried to walk out of the gates of the main media hotel, to the south of Tripoli city centre, security guards blocked their way.

A Libyan government spokesman said journalists were being kept in the Rixos hotel because their presence could trigger violence from what he described as affiliates of al Qaeda.

"These are exceptional circumstances. I know you're going to talk about it and twist it the way you want," said the spokesman Mussa Ibrahim. "We are preparing to pay this price of preventing you guys from reporting to avoid turning Tripoli into Baghdad."

A revolt against Gaddafi's four-decade rule has left the eastern side of the country, and several towns elsewhere, in rebel control with the capital now his principal strong-hold.

Several residents of Tripoli have said they are planning to protest against Gaddafi when they leave their mosques after Friday prayers, and that they anticipate a violent crackdown by armed pro-Gaddafi militias.

Overnight, gunshots could be heard outside the Rixos hotel. Ibrahim said the firing was an attempt by the rebels to disturb stability in central Tripoli.

About 130 journalists are in the hotel after being invited to Libya on an officially-organised media visit. Their movements are monitored by officials.

No talks

In the eastern part of the country, protesters who have set up a National Libyan Council said they were open to talks only on Gaddafi's resignation or exile to stop bloodshed, an aide to a top public figure said on Thursday.

Ahmed Jabreel, an aide to ex-justice minister Mustafa Abdel Jalil who heads the council now based in Benghazi, said air strikes to set up a "no-fly" zone were needed to help rebels topple Gaddafi, who has refused to step down despite a revolt.

"If there is any negotiation it will be on one single thing -- how Gaddafi is going to leave the country or step down so we can save lives. There is nothing else to negotiate," Jabreel, authorized to speak on Abdel Jalil's behalf, told Reuters.

"We are not going to negotiate any political solution. We want him put on trial, but if we don't give him an exit, we know more people will be killed," he said in al-Bayda, a coastal city in rebel-controlled eastern Libya.

The council has called for U.N.-backed air strikes against what they say are African mercenaries fighting for Gaddafi. Warplanes raided eastern towns on Thursday after launching a ground assault on Brega on Wednesday that rebels repulsed.

"I don't think Gaddafi is thinking any more about getting the east of Libya back. He is trying to keep whatever he has in his hands and find a political solution," Jabreel said.

Asked about Brega, Jabreel said: "On the ground, people are in control. We are saying we need airstrikes to impose a no-fly zone in Libya. With this, people will be able to defeat Gaddafi for sure."

"We have the weapons, the support, we have almost half of Libya that we can defend, so we are convinced that we can defeat any movement Gaddafi may make," he added.

Consensus

The military council in Benghazi started organizing themselves, they have not taken any decision to move to the west Mustafa Abdel Jalil

Rebels have pushed the front line west from Brega and Gaddafi's forces have retreated to Ras Lanuf, 660 km (410 miles) east of Tripoli, rebel commanders and soldiers said.

"The military council in Benghazi started organizing themselves, they have not taken any decision to move to the west but they are organizing themselves so they can be ready for any development in the coming days," he said.

A council spokesman announced on Wednesday that Abdel Jalil would chair the 30-member body that will represent those rebelling against Gaddafi's 41-year rule.

But the spokesman said the council, which wants to move to Tripoli once Gaddafi falls, was not an interim government.

Jabreel, formerly a Libyan diplomat based in New York, said Abdel Jalil had been travelling around towns in the region to build support and a consensus about the council's plans.

"Everyone is saying the same thing. We want a constitution that divides between the three authorities, a civil participative state that is respected and respects other members of the international community," Jabreel said.

Rebel council spokesman Hafiz Ghoga has accused several African countries of sending troops to support Gaddafi and said there was evidence that Algeria, a fellow North African state, was playing a role. But Jabreel trod more cautiously.

"There is no proof at this stage that any government has been involved. I met some of the mercenaries a couple of years ago, they were given Libyan nationality," he said.

"That is why, when you see them, they don't look Libyan but have Libyan papers. The recruitment started a few years ago without the cooperation of any government," he added.

He also said there was stability in the eastern region, which has a history of revolting against Gaddafi's rule and which fell into rebel hands swiftly after protests erupted in mid-February.

"Security-wise things are very stable. We have not seen any instability in this part of Libya. People are very happy, very safe. There have been no clashes," Jabreel said.

"Libyan authorities blocked foreign journalists from leaving their hotel to report on expected protests after Friday prayers.

When journalists including Reuters reporters tried to walk out of the gates of the main media hotel, to the south of Tripoli city centre, security guards blocked their way. "

As Gaddafi has repeatedly vowed to kill any who oppose him and there's a mass demonstration in the capital, one has to wonder what is going to happen...

No witnesses?

Today should be interesting.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/afri...-0#update-8046

12:40pm Rebel fighters gather in the oil-rich town of Ras Lanuf as Libyan state television claimed that the town had been recaptured by loyalist forces [AFP].

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/20...07/140470.html

UN urges Libya to end "indiscriminate" attacks on civilians

Libya protesters losing ground as UN gains access

Monday, 07 March 2011


A young Libyan girl flashes the "V sign" with her fingers painted with the old national flag's colours, during a demo in Benghazi

TRIPOLI/UNITED NATIONS (AlArabiya.net, Agencies)

Muammar Gaddafi's forces were holding off protesters near the Libyan leader's hometown and recaptured a key city, as the United Nations prepared to send a special envoy to Tripoli while its chief demanded an end to "indiscriminate" attacks against civilians in Libya and warned Tripoli that anyone who violates international law will be brought to justice.

Untold numbers of "injured and dying" in the western city of Misrata prompted a U.N. demand for urgent access to the civilian population repeatedly shelled by Gaddafi tanks Sunday.

The U.N. Secretary General, meanwhile, demanded an end to "indiscriminate" attacks against civilians in Libya and warned Tripoli that anyone who violates international law will be brought to justice.


UN chief Ban Ki-moon

Ban Ki-moon's press office said Gaddafi's foreign minister agreed to let a "humanitarian assessment" team visit Tripoli and he named a special envoy to deal with the regime, former Jordanian foreign minister Abdelilah al-Khatib to undertake "urgent consultations" with the Tripoli government.

"He (Ban) notes that civilians are bearing the brunt of the violence, and calls for an immediate halt to the government's disproportionate use of force and indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets," the statement said.

"He stresses that those who violate international humanitarian law or commit grave crimes must be held accountable," it added.

Ban appealed to the Libyan government to call an end to the hostilities and urged it to comply fully with a U.N. Security Council sanctions resolution adopted a week ago.

That resolution called for an end to the violence and imposed U.N. sanctions on Qaddafi, his family and inner circle. It also referred the violent crackdown against anti-government demonstrators to the International Criminal Court.

Frustration


Protesters wave a Kingdom of Libya flag during an anti-Gaddafi protest in Benghazi

Protesters' frustration was apparent as ragtag opposition forces squabbled over a bitter defeat in the coastal city of Bin Jawad.

And revolutionary leaders rejected a secret British mission sent to establish contact with them. In the eastern city of Benghazi, a protesters stronghold, a spokesman said the British team that landed nearby had not made prior arrangements, and was sent away.

Pro-Gaddafi forces beat back protesters making a westward approach to Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte.

Protesters also pulled back from the coastal hamlet of Bin Jawad, occupied on Saturday, after clashes left two dead and around 50 wounded.

"We retreated from Bin Jawad. Ras Lanuf will be our line of defense," rebel Aqil al-Fars told AFP.

Demonstrators in the oil port of Ras Lanuf argued about what went wrong in nearby Bin Jawad, with one proclaiming: "The problem is we have no leadership."

Attacks in the western city of Misrata prompted the U.N. demand for urgent access to civilians.

"People are injured and dying and need help immediately," said U.N. emergency relief coordinator Valerie Amos. "I call on the authorities to provide access without delay to allow aid workers to help save lives."

Residents of Misrata, strategically located between the capital Tripoli and Sirte, said earlier that government tanks were shelling the town and warned of "carnage" if the international community did not intervene.

A spokesman for the protesters confirmed Misrata was under intense fire from pro-Gaddafi forces and reported casualties, but insisted the city was still in rebel hands.

The opposition vehemently denied a report by Allibiya state television that Gaddafi's forces had retaken a string of strategic oil towns from the rebels.

Taking back control


Supporters of Libya's leader Muammar Gaddafi attend a rally in central Tripoli

Thousands celebrated in Tripoli with gunfire, horn-honking and flag waving after Allibiya said government forces had taken control of Misrata, Libya's third city, the key oil hub of Ras Lanuf and even Tobruk near the Egyptian border.

AFP reporters in Ras Lanuf, taken by protesters early on Saturday, confirmed it was still in opposition hands despite being hit by air strikes early Sunday.

A defected officer, Colonel Bashir al-Moghrabi, told reporters the opposition also still controlled Zawiyah, west of Tripoli, where fierce battles took place on Saturday.

A local doctor said there had been a "massacre" in Zawiyah and a Sky News journalist said Gaddafi's forces had fired on civilians.

Libya's deputy foreign minister Khaled Kaaim told reporters the armed forces would not take the fight to the protesters.

"The order for the armed forces is to take defensive positions, and not to engage the enemy except if they go on the offensive," he said.

Ali Errishi, Gaddafi's former immigration minister who joined the revolt, voiced growing frustration at a lack of international assistance for the ill-equipped force.

He told CNN the United States had missed an opportunity to oust the Libyan strongman by "dragging their feet" over aiding the protesters in the early days of the uprising, now approaching its fourth week.

"We asked, we don't want a no-fly zone actually, we just want air cover," Errishi said.

A former U.S. envoy to the United Nations, Bill Richardson, said it was time to "covertly arm the rebels" and enforce a no-fly zone over the north African country, to prevent Gaddafi using his air power against his own people.

British team sent home


Protesters celebrate near an unexploded bomb that was dropped minutes before by a jet in Ras Lanuf

Britain was forced to admit its own, secret, attempt to begin negotiations with the rebels had ended ignominiously after opposition forces arrested a diplomat and a protection squad inserted clandestinely by helicopter.

"The team went to Libya to initiate contacts with the opposition. They experienced difficulties, which have now been satisfactorily resolved," said Foreign Secretary William Hague after the men were sent home by opposition leaders.

Britain's Sunday Times said the eight-man group comprised a diplomat and SAS (Special Air Service) soldiers, who the BBC said were dressed in black.

"We do not know the nature of their mission. We refused to discuss anything with them due to the way they entered the country," said spokesman Abdul Hafiz Ghoqa.

U.S. talk of a no-fly zone cooled last week after a top commander said air strikes would first have to take out ground defenses, but President Barack Obama said all options remain on the table.

French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe reiterated the prevailing European and U.S. view that military intervention in Libya would have "absolutely negative" effects.

But he said a no-fly zone would be a possibility should the fighting "become bloodier."

Wounded people streaming back from Bin Jawad to Ras Lanuf said Gaddafi loyalists lured them into a trap, hiding in homes, mingling with civilians and hunkering down on rooftops before opening fire on convoys of volunteers.

In an apparent counter-claim, state television later cited the military as saying the rebels were holding "human shields" in residential sectors of some cities.

Two attacks by lone warplanes targeted a checkpoint on the eastern edge of Ras Lanuf and a rebel camp in a former military barracks in the center Sunday.

^Stupid question, but doesn't that bomb look like it hit the ground backwards?

Jadallah Azous Al-Talhi, a Libyan prime minister in the 1980s who is originally from eastern Libya, appeared on state television reading an address to elders in Benghazi, the main base of the anti-Gaddafi rebels.

He asked them to "give a chance to national dialogue to resolve this crisis, to help stop the bloodshed, and not give a chance to foreigners to come and capture our country again."

The appeal did not detail any concessions that Gaddafi's administration would be prepared to make. The rebels have said they will settle for nothing less than an end to Gaddafi's four decades in power.

The fact that Al-Talhi's appeal was broadcast on tightly-controlled state television indicated that it was officially endorsed.

Libyan authorities offer olive branch to rebels

sadly, the west and US interest would be to keep khaddafi

Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs

"The great 2011 Arab revolt, the cry for democracy in Northern Africa, the mostly Shi'ite revolt in the Persian Gulf, the Western despair over the price of oil, and the new United States Middle East doctrine of "regime alteration" - not to mention the Pentagon's full-spectrum dominance doctrine - have been convoluted into the ultimate political storm in MENA (Middle East/Northern Africa). The storm deploys devastating gusts of hypocritical winds.

For starters, the enlightened, democratic West has decided Muammar Gaddafi has to be taken down - or out."

Regime Change is the objective, but what will replace the old?