Thread: The 'Veil'

Originally Posted by RDN

Originally Posted by surasak

Originally Posted by keebone

They should feel lucky they live in a society that offers them so much tolerance without having to push it for all it's worth.

Name 1 country that has islam as it major religion that offers anywhere near the same religious and cultural tolerance that the UK does.

Irrelevant to the subject.

Meaning: I know Muslims are incredibly intolerant of other religions, and take advantage of our tolerance of them, but I don't want to talk about that now.

It means that the bearing of a government and how it acts in some other country towards a different group of people has no bearing on how another government should treat its residents.

Tolerance with limits is otherwise known as racism.

"I'm tolerant but those XXX who do XXX just aren't acceptable." That's just a form of bigotry and racism.

The irony.

Originally Posted by Little Chuchok

^Ever heard of facial expresions? Strewth!

Poker face. Next?

Tool!Next

Studies have shown that babies get upset and cry if their mothers stare at them with a blank face. They need the signals to assist them in understanding their surroundings. I'd say that's true of everyone, with children needing it more than adults.

Don't speak to me in that tone of voice!

Facial expressions can be faked. Voices are more accurate. You can put on a smiley face but if you're upset it's extremely difficult to mask your voice. I can tell if a person is lying to me simply by focusing on the voice.

From what I'm reading about the case allegedly the kids in the class say that the veil made it hard for them to understand what the teacher was saying. If that's the case then I could buy the argument of the veil being a hinderance. I don't see the crime though in covering one's face. Perhaps we need laws banning facial hair and plastic surgery if we're so concerned about identity.

Originally Posted by surasak

...I would agree that facial coverings don't belong in a facility with obvious security implications (such as a bank), but, a school? ...

Yes, a school, where the teachers job is to communicate with the kids, and communication involves much more than just words as you very well know.

It was my understanding that the TA in question only insisted on wearing the veil in class if an adult male was in the room.

The only teacher I ever cared to look at was my third grade teacher. Man, she was hottie!

Originally Posted by surasak

Don't speak to me in that tone of voice!

Facial expressions can be faked. Voices are more accurate. You can put on a smiley face but if you're upset it's extremely difficult to mask your voice. I can tell if a person is lying to me simply by focusing on the voice.

Well you must have a big brain then and are one of the lucky few people in the world to be able to do this.

I suppose young children should be taught "tonal recognition and how to tell if somebody is bullshitting" before they can count....

Originally Posted by surasak

Don't speak to me in that tone of voice!
Facial expressions can be faked. Voices are more accurate. You can put on a smiley face but if you're upset it's extremely difficult to mask your voice.

Really? I think everything can be faked, and the easiest is the voice - we have so much practice at it. Look at a person's eyes to see what they really feel.

Originally Posted by surasak

I can tell if a person is lying to me simply by focusing on the voice.

And how long were you in Thailand?

Originally Posted by surasak

From what I'm reading about the case allegedly the kids in the class say that the veil made it hard for them to understand what the teacher was saying. If that's the case then I could buy the argument of the veil being a hinderance.

Even if it was a very thin veil that didn't muffle the voice, it would still hinder communication.

Originally Posted by surasak

I don't see the crime though in covering one's face.

There is no crime, but in some circumstances, your face must be visible. What do Muslims look like on their passport?

Originally Posted by surasak

Perhaps we need laws banning facial hair and plastic surgery if we're so concerned about identity.

Facial hair has been used by some to hide or change their appearance so they are not easily recognised. We all know that. Don't know about plastic surgery though, except in some silly films.

^^Have you never heard someone's voice quiver, stutter, or have slightly unusual pauses while talking when they are failing to tell the truth? If you ask a police interrogator which is harder to fake he's going to answer: voice and body movement (stuttering, pauses, change in tone, etc). Facial expressions and word choice tend to be innacuate indications of emotion except to the highly trained person.

Maybe it's from working with thousands of people using computers and dealing with their BS of how it was someone else's fault that porn messed up their PC that this comes naturally to me. I dunno, I've always been mostly a listener and to be a good listener you need to drown out other senses so that your focus is hearing.

My ex-boss thought he was a good liar...even had the poker face to go with it. But I always knew he was being deceitful by how he spoke because it was always different than his normal mode of speaking.

If you are 100% correct,do you think that kids could even hope to see (hear) this, understand it and also have the ability to get educated?

Originally Posted by mad_dog

It was my understanding that the TA in question only insisted on wearing the veil in class if an adult male was in the room.

She attended the interview without her veil, even though a male governor was present, and did not wear it for teacher training days on taking up the post.

Mrs Azmi claims the headmaster then agreed she could wear the veil in class as she was assisting a male teacher.

"She worked with no problem for three weeks, but was then asked to work with a different male teacher who was unhappy with her wearing the veil," said a spokesman for her solicitors.

She was finally suspended in February.

In a statement, Councillor Jim Dodds, Kirklees Cabinet member for children and young people, said the decision to suspend her had been taken after monitoring the impact on pupils of wearing a veil in class.

He added: "In this case the school and local authority had to balance the rights of the children to receive the best quality education possible and Mrs Azmi's desire to express her cultural beliefs by wearing a veil in class.

"The education of the children is of paramount importance and it is disappointing that the school was unable to reach a compromise with Mrs Azmi in this case. However, the tribunal has agreed that the action taken was correct."

Cameron warns politicians to stop 'piling in' on veil debate | the Daily Mail

As I said the apparent complaint against her was that the children couldn't understand her verbally, thus, I would agree that speech is more important than facial expressions in this situation, and, if the speech is being obstructed by the veil then it's a problem (since she was, after all, assisting to teach English to non-English speaking students).

The problem I see is that different cultures tend to express themselves differently via facial expressions (in my experience) but when speaking it's painfully clear what emotion is being conveyed. Been around alot of Taiwanese and Vietnamese that would have a smile on their face but knife stabbing anger in the voice. Even without understanding some of the speech it was apparent to me what was being conveyed despite the congenial look on the face.

I've tested this with my 2 1/2 month old. My wife gets an angry tone of voice and even with a smile on the face he will cry. If I have an angry look but talk gently he's fine.

You have to think about it: if I'm behind you can you see my face? But you can always hear me if I'm talking. I think vocal clues are more important because it's a deeper sensory observation that must be made. Do we understand the words? Do we comprehend what is said? Do we know if the person is serious? Kidding? Angry? Distressed?

Interesting, we might see a violent political shift in all English speaking countries very soon.

Originally Posted by surasak

As I said the apparent complaint against her was that the children couldn't understand her verbally, thus, I would agree that speech is more important than facial expressions in this situation, and, if the speech is being obstructed by the veil then it's a problem (since she was, after all, assisting to teach English to non-English speaking students).

Exactly - students need to see the mouth in order to understand the words. In large classes it is also useful to be able to lip-read if there is a lot of background noise. That's what I used to do.

Originally Posted by surasak

The problem I see is that different cultures tend to express themselves differently via facial expressions (in my experience) but when speaking it's painfully clear what emotion is being conveyed. Been around alot of Taiwanese and Vietnamese that would have a smile on their face but knife stabbing anger in the voice.

And I've been around a load of Thais who talk sweet, but their faces tells a different story. Perhaps they weren't good at it or weren't trying very hard.

Originally Posted by surasak

Even without understanding some of the speech it was apparent to me what was being conveyed despite the congenial look on the face.

I've tested this with my 2 1/2 month old. My wife gets an angry tone of voice and even with a smile on the face he will cry. If I have an angry look but talk gently he's fine.

You have to think about it: if I'm behind you can you see my face? But you can always hear me if I'm talking. I think vocal clues are more important because it's a deeper sensory observation that must be made. Do we understand the words? Do we comprehend what is said? Do we know if the person is serious? Kidding? Angry? Distressed?

Oh well, we'd better stop debating this because your 2 1/2 year old tested the way you wanted. Ermm, I don't think so.

Not at all, just an observation I've been making lately. My son doesn't like to be around mom and I've been trying to figure out why. It's rather unusual for a baby to prefer father over mother and I've been getting onto her for her tone of voice.

Children always react more to sounds than face. A strong voice get their attention, an angry face doesn't.

Originally Posted by RDN

She attended the interview without her veil, even though a male governor was present, and did not wear it for teacher training days on taking up the post.

I am surprised that no-one has commented on this.

She doesn't have to wear a veil. She's a sham artist.

Originally Posted by Propagator

Good question KW. I am sure that I have read a report somewhere about when visiting certain countries in the ME that women have to cover up, ie legs, shoulders etc in respect for their religion. Dont think the veil came into it. Will try and find the article.

Well have you ever seen a Iranian man who never touched or saw a girl naked going to a go go bar for the first time??

I have. He was completely lost and he was ready to do anything just to get one of them into bed.

Muslims countries ask the westerners to cover their body parts when in ME is because they might get sexually harressed by some twat. Anyways I am against this thing cos I know how to keep myself under control cos I am sort of been there dont that kind of fella but I have to admit that most in the ME are not.

I think every person is born free and should have the right to do what they want as long as it is civil and doesn't offend anyone wether it's a veil or a skirt.

Originally Posted by Thetyim

Originally Posted by RDN

She attended the interview without her veil, even though a male governor was present, and did not wear it for teacher training days on taking up the post.

I am surprised that no-one has commented on this.

She doesn't have to wear a veil. She's a sham artist.

My opinion about her is that she is a fokin attention whore and wants to get some publicity, I study in a university and there are certain rules regarding uniforms. I simply comply and I never asked the university to change the rule cos it doesn't offend me in any way.

When I was in Koh Phi Phi in 2004 there was a sign telling people to cover up as well rather than run about naked on the beach or without a shirt as many men do in the West. Did most of the Europeans ignore this? You bet.

I guess what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

the child is 2 1/2 months old? they don't even have full vision do they? No wonder voice is important to the baby.