The 'Veil'

**mad_dog** · 20-10-2006, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by humphrey

Originally Posted by mad_dog

Straw and Blair and other politicans have been using the veil issue to make political ground. Their pathetic oppertunism adds to the persecution that Muslims feel. The constant targeting of Muslims in the media and by people with hateful intent (see how many threads there are in this sub-forum about Muslim "issues") is driving a wedge between Muslims and non-Muslims far more than a small minority of women wearing the veil.

Mad dog i agree with you about the constant targeting of Muslims is driving a wedge in society.
However I have to diasagree with your statement concerning Blair and Straw. I personally laud Straw for bringing this issue to the table. It does need to be addressed and by being addressed more poeple will understand and hopefully more people will be more tolerant.

Hopefully your right. But personally I see it as Straw trying to build his own profile inorder to gain the upcoming DPM position and a more general attempt by the government to gain support by exploiting xenophobia and ignorance. Why should Muslim people be put in the spotlight once again becuase a tiny minority, certainly less than 5%, of Muslim women choose to wear a veil?

**mad_dog** · 20-10-2006, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Originally Posted by mad_dog

Straw and Blair and other politicans have been using the veil issue to make political ground. Their pathetic oppertunism adds to the persecution that Muslims feel. The constant targeting of Muslims in the media and by people with hateful intent (see how many threads there are in this sub-forum about Muslim "issues") is driving a wedge between Muslims and non-Muslims far more than a small minority of women wearing the veil.

I guess you have'nt read the story about the Brithish Airway employee who got fired because he was wearing a cross? Was that also being used by Blair and Straw for political ground?

What gets me about this veil issue is that muslim men expect women to run arround with a veil, but they run arround like civilized westerners.
.

Regarding the FEMALE British Airways employee who was SUSPENDED for wearing a cross at work: no I don't feel Blair or Straw were making political capital out of this, becuase neither of them directly commented (Blair) on or wrote newspaper editorials on the subject (Straw). The industrial tribunal in the case of the Muslim school teacher actually complained about Labour ministers commenting on the case in their summation, they saw it as politcal interference.

**humphrey** · 20-10-2006, 05:57 PM

Not having much luck with the response here.
Try again.
People react in strange ways when confronted with things that they do not understand not know about. Lets hope this is his way of trying to educate some of the people who live in Britian and indeed in all countries. If I remember correctly he did say this was not government policy and was his personal issue. he does represent a constituency where there are a large number of Muslims does he not?

**mad_dog** · 20-10-2006, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by humphrey

Not having much luck with the response here.
Try again.
People react in strange ways when confronted with things that they do not understand not know about. Lets hope this is his way of trying to educate some of the people who live in Britian and indeed in all countries. If I remember correctly he did say this was not government policy and was his personal issue. he does represent a constituency where there are a large number of Muslims does he not?

I understand his arguement I just feel he is exploiting a delicate issue for his own gain. Hopefully I am wrong but New Labour is becoming an increasingly reactionary force.

**humphrey** · 20-10-2006, 06:17 PM

Lets see how it pans out shall we?

**stroller** · 20-10-2006, 07:17 PM

The veil has been subject to public and administrative discussion in France and Germany, too.

In France they decided not allow it in schools, if I remember correctly.

In Germany, the case of a pupil at school not being allowed to wear it went to court, and the individual's right of expressing cultural identity was reinforced, the veil is not regarded as a religious symbol.

Certainly an 'issue' whereever there are Muslim communities in the West.

**Itchy** · 20-10-2006, 08:07 PM

Part of the reason for the huge amount of comment and interest in this subject in the UK is because for too long now the whole issue of Immigrant Integration and Immigration has been swept under the carpet, or worse still, those who have raised issues relating to concerns over immigration have been ridiculed in the media.

Now all of a sudden the cat's out of the bag and the issue is being talked about.

I certainly agree with what Mhz says, no we should not judge 1.4 billion people on rabid press and media report.

However, nor should we let any group dictate the terms by which the rest of us should view, discuss, question or criticize them.

I personally think the issue is not the veil; the issue is the gagging of freedom of expression, and the ignoring of the genuine fears, feelings and voices of ordinary people.

Veils are in the news, but I believe that public reaction to the veil is symptomatic over other fears non Muslim Britons have with respect to Muslims in Britain. The questions British Muslims should be asked to address relate to Law and Allegiance.

Britain is governed by laws written in Parliament, there is no Sharia law in the UK, nor if we listen to the will of the vast majority of Britons (98% of whom are not Muslim), will there ever be Sharia Law in the UK.

There is no such thing as the 'Muslim World' the world is shared by people, some of whom are Muslims. The allegiance of Britons, must, if they are Britons, be to Britain.

Not that many years back, Norman Tebbit, was ridiculed for stating that it should matter what side you cheer for in the Cricket.

Not that many years ago, Enoch Powell, warned their would be blood on British Streets.

I dare, I just dare you to raise these two topics on a BBC discussion (program or website). Write to the main stream media expressing those sentiments - and your letter will not be published.

At least not yet, but things are changing, and they do need to change.

Let me remind you of something.

When Salman Rushdie, published his book Satanic Verses, British Muslims burned the book on British Streets, claiming as they did so that the book (which I doubt any of them had read) violated the core of their faith. The book, they told us, offended Muslim sensibilities.

But what about British Sensibilities and values?

Could they not see that burning books is an iconic act, symbolic of the first acts to deny knowledge and discussion committed by the single most dangerous threat to Western Liberal Society - The Nazis.

It is for this reason I say we cannot allow ANY group to claim they, their culture, religion or beliefs are above questioning and if necessary ridicule.

Second to the Nazis, religious fanatics claiming God as their justification are the biggest threat to the liberty we all enjoy - Regardless of what your religion is or is not.

Edit – For the record, both my parents and my wife are immigrants to the UK.

If other immigrants find something about UK society that offends their religion then they have the same option my family had. We chose to fit in and accept the great gift being British is.

**stroller** · 20-10-2006, 08:35 PM

^
A good, thoughtful post, Itchy.
This is one of the issues which pushes 'liberalism' in GB and elsewhere to the edge.
Should intolerance be tolerated, are violence and terrorism the edge, or should the line be drawn earlier?

As I have been an immigrant to Britain, and now Thailand myself, lots of thingsd pop into my head.
It's going off-topic, migration and assimilation is a huge subject which deserves a new thread.

**Itchy** · 20-10-2006, 08:52 PM

^ This is where I disagree with the use of the term "Liberal".

"Liberal" is not some BBC TV interviewer ridiculing the attempts of a working class man trying to express his concern regarding immigration. (As I witnessed recently on the BBC TV). Nor is it defending the indifensible because the indifensible is committed by a minority group.

Liberal is being able listen to both sides - and to do that we must first let both sides speak.

**mad_dog** · 20-10-2006, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Itchy

When Salman Rushdie, published his book Satanic Verses, British Muslims burned the book on British Streets, claiming as they did so that the book (which I doubt any of them had read) violated the core of their faith. The book, they told us, offended Muslim sensibilities.

But what about British Sensibilities and values?
is.

Rushdie is an interesting example. He is regarded as one of the greatest living British novelists and is of course a British Muslim. The paranoics obsessed with "fatwas" seem to forget this (not you itchy).
Being British means having the right a able to talk about issues and to respect other peoples right to voicing their own opinion. I am sure the vast majority of British Muslims agree with these prinicipals but feel aggrieved becuase there is a constant, daily stream of attack and criticism in the popular culture aimed at Muslims. Much of the critisim is based on ignorance and racism and should be condemned just as loudly by people who condemn Muslims for not being open to constructive criticism.

**Itchy** · 20-10-2006, 09:32 PM

^I don't disagree MD, but I do believe that the reason for the current ranting is the fact that for too long now, reasonable discussion has been supressed.

There are absolutely are clashes between some aspects of Islam and the values of Western Liberal Society that need to be discussed.

It is far too important a discussion for us to allow it to be dumbed down by the argument that we need to avoid upsetting people's beliefs.

Look, this is not the first time the UK has faced the question of Religion and State.

We've been here before.

On the 5th of next month we'll be burning an effigy of a Catholic who took terrorism right into Parliament.

It's not a children's celebration with no meaning to our society - I believe this issue of faith and society is the single most challenging issue in our society today.

I also firmly believe a man can not have two masters.

**Mr Earl** · 20-10-2006, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Macha

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

A burka presents an extreme expression of an individuals religious preference.
I see no reason for these people to impose their extremism in a western workplace.
These fanatics should stay in Dubai. Oh yea but she would be beaten and whipped there for opening her mouth.
In western society they are allowed the freedom of protest.
A western employer also has a right to choose who he hires or fires.

When in Rome.....

Earl, I never came across someone like yourself, honestly. Where did you get that "Burka or whatever you call it presents an extreme expression of an individuals religious preference?"

Please do some research about Muslims and their beliefs before spouting shit. A veil is not a religious thing. It's a cultural thing. I hope you got it now.

My apologies, I wasn't aware of any other "cultures" other than Islam/Muslim who wore veils or Burkas.
BTW which ones are they?

Pardon my stupidity but how do I distinguish between Islamic culture and Islam religion?

When a muslim cleric preaches hatred towards Israel and the USA is that a cultural "thing" or is it religious?

When a Sunni muslim detonates a car bomb outside a police station in Bagdad killing Shiete muslims is that a "cultural thing" or is it religious?

**barbaro** · 20-10-2006, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Macha

Please do some research about Muslims and their beliefs before spouting shit. A veil is not a religious thing. It's a cultural thing. I hope you got it now.

Macha, it was you who stated several times that a Muslim woman should wear a veil.

You stated it was "compulsory."

There is a cultural element to wearing a veil obviously.

But this cultural element is influence by the interpreataion of Islam by Muslims.

It is cultural, and it is religious.

Culture influences relgion; religion influences culture.

**mad_dog** · 20-10-2006, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by Itchy

I believe this issue of faith and society is the single most challenging issue in our society today.

I don't disagree that certain articles of the Islamic faith seem to contradict the system of Western Liberal Democracy that we enjoy in the Uk. And I think it is a legitmate subject of discussion however how can Muslims not feel persecuted when there is a burgoning industry of hate filled Islam analysis ?(www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch, www.thereligionofpeace.com)

If we have amatuer experts like Jack Straw constantly digging through Islamic culture shouldn't we have just as vocal debate about The Jewish faith's belief on the rights of Goyim? Due to the "sensitive times" we live I feel such debates are counter productive.

**stroller** · 20-10-2006, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Pardon my stupidity but how do I distinguish between Islamic culture and Islam religion?

I'm a bit stupid, too. Is it just a thing done in certain countries, or is the practice based on the Koran in some way? I suspect in some regions religion and culture are inextricably linked, but many Muslims also object to the women wearing veils.

When a muslim cleric preaches hatred towards Israel and the USA is that a cultural "thing" or is it religious?

When a Sunni muslim detonates a car bomb outside a police station in Bagdad killing Shiete muslims is that a "cultural thing" or is it religious?

This doesn't sound like a "cultural thing" to me, consider issues of territory, power, resentment, channeled and enhanced through religion.
THe Koran doesn't say "hate America", but it does oblige Muslims to wage war (in action or thought) against those who attack them - a matter of interpretation.

**seth106** · 20-10-2006, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by mad_dog

He is regarded as one of the greatest living British novelists and is of course a British Muslim.

Is he not Indian, by the wrong side of the western border?

**mad_dog** · 20-10-2006, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by seth106

Originally Posted by mad_dog

He is regarded as one of the greatest living British novelists and is of course a British Muslim.

Is he not Indian, by the wrong side of the western border?

Born in India but a British citizen none the less

**Itchy** · 21-10-2006, 01:05 AM

Mad Dog, if you wish to label Jack Straw an Amateur then please at least recognize that the debate he started has been accepted by very many Muslims as being a debate that adds to the dialogue with Islam and indeed the dialogue within Islam.

Also please give Jack Straw the credit for raising this issue in what is accepted on all sides (with the exception of a very small minority of rabidly fundemtalists - in both the Islamic and PC worlds of Fundementalism)

And finally accept that Jack Straw, in a very non Amateur way, represents a parliamentary constituency which is to a large degree Muslim - He has, as it were, put his mouth where his votes might not be.

As for Judaism in the UK. Yes that has been debated (historically), there has been no historical case where any significant part of the Jewish Community within the UK has proposed segregation and the right to live their lives under a different set of 'Jewish' laws.

Moreover, Jews in the UK have been the victims of persecution, both under the law and in terms of state sponsored physical violence and state sponsored murder.

If you have evidence of British Jews proposing that they live their lives under Jewish law, Jews attempting to define what constitutes the boundaries of free speech, Jews burning books in the UK, or Jews committing acts of Terrorism in the UK - Lets have it.

Only last year a British Muslim woman, clothed in her veil (no doubt as an act of piety) stood on a UK street holding a sign proclaim, "Prepare for the Real Holocaust". She was eventually arrested and charged with an act of incitement and breach of public order - but only after wide spread public complaint.

If you want a real example of a conflict between religion and state in the UK look no further than the battle between the parliamentarians and the Catholic Church.

Liberty in the UK has had its religious challenge and thankfully won.

I sincerely believe it will win again; we will all win Muslims included when we accept that with Rights and Privileges come Responsibilities.

Now answer me a question.

The veil being taken up by many Muslim Women in the UK comes from a very particular part of Muslim Culture and specifically one Muslim country.

How, given that most Muslims do not come from that part of the world, do you suppose that these women have come to choose that form of dress?

Why has that happened?

Oh and please feel free to quote the Quran, I have read it and I have a copy in my book case. It sits there in a whole section of theology, just along from philosophy and not far from the works of Voltaire and Rousseau.

I mention this, because when we get over the old Muslim Bashing accusation, I’d like to get back to the real issue, which I believe to be ‘The relationship between the individual and society’.
.. Regadless of their faith.

**mad_dog** · 21-10-2006, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by Itchy

The veil being taken up by many Muslim Women in the UK comes from a very particular part of Muslim Culture and specifically one Muslim country.

How, given that most Muslims do not come from that part of the world, do you suppose that these women have come to choose that form of dress?

Why has that happened?
.

The veil is an outward expression of someones faith. This does not mean that to be a observant female Muslim you have to wear a veil. The wearing of a veil is more of a cultural phenomenon than a religious one However if a women chooses to wear a veils then it is her decision.

A variety of women from across the Islamic world, not just one specific country choose to wear a veil. Just last night on Question Time there was a white British Muslim woman who advocated wearing the veil. The percentage of Muslim women in the Uk who choose to wear the veil is tiny but growing. There is anecodtal evidence to suggest that the increased popularity of the veil is due to the increasing level of persecution that Muslims feel.

With regards to the relationship between Muslims and their responsibilities to the British state the vast majority of Muslims are happy to live under Britsh common law. Even the most extreme such as Omar Bakri (now deported) recognised that Muslims living in the UK had entered into a compact with the British state and while they were free to advocate the establishment of Sharia law in the UK this was to be carried out by peaceful means only.

Many people in the UK found the inflamitory speeches of Enoch Powell highly offensive but he was free to give them. That is the nature of a Western Liberal Democracy: people are free to advocte what they like and behave in which the manner they choose like no matter how unrealistic or unpalatable it is as long as they do not break the law which makes all this possible.

**Mhz** · 21-10-2006, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by Itchy

When Salman Rushdie, published his book Satanic Verses, British Muslims burned the book on British Streets, claiming as they did so that the book (which I doubt any of them had read) violated the core of their faith. The book, they told us, offended Muslim sensibilities.

Well to tell you the truth Itchy I am a Muslim and I dont give a rat's ass what others say about Islam wether it is Salman Rushdie or the cartoonist who made Mohammad's cartoons. The best i can do is discuss my religion with those who are interested. Once a friend asked me for my opinion about the cartoons and my answer was "Mohammad was looking cool". the guy was shocked and was asking me time and again why I dont feel angry and again my answer was "I love Mohammad and respect him with all my heart but if Mohammad wants me too make the whole world respect him than I am sorry I cant do that".

Now I am not trying to make myslef look good all I want to say is that I believe that every person has his/her own choice and we cant force them to change. All we can do is tell them about ourselves the rest is upto him/her.

Most of the Muslim protests against the cartoons were peaceful until the fokwit mullahs joined and started throwing stones and molotov cocktails at the police and shops in Pakistan.

The Muslims must realise that the uneducated Mullahs are the real Satans and need to be put down if they want Islam to prevail peacefully.

**Propagator** · 21-10-2006, 03:45 AM

Originally Posted by Itchy

However, nor should we let any group dictate the terms by which the rest of us should view, discuss, question or criticize them.

This sentence by Itchy sums up the very thoughts that I have. Jack Straw opened a can of worms but somebody had to do it and bring the subject in the open for discussion. I think many people have thought this, but in our PC correct society feel they would be branded as racist.

Originally Posted by Itchy

If other immigrants find something about UK society that offends their religion then they have the same option my family had. We chose to fit in and accept the great gift being British is.

Agreed - greenie on the way

**Propagator** · 21-10-2006, 04:16 AM

I understand what Mad Dog and others say about the constant attack and criticism aimed at the Muslims in the UK. But isn't a lot of this criticism brought upon themselves. The extremist clerics should be silenced by the many good muslims in this country, of which the vast majority are.

Originally Posted by Mhz

The Muslims must realise that the uneducated Mullahs are the real Satans and need to be put down if they want Islam to prevail peacefully.

Must spread the greenies around before I can dish another to you

**mad_dog** · 21-10-2006, 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by Propagator

I understand what Mad Dog and others say about the constant attack and criticism aimed at the Muslims in the UK. But isn't a lot of this criticism brought upon themselves. The extremist clerics should be silenced by the many good muslims in this country, of which the vast majority are.

Exactly. The Muslim community need to solve their own problems. I just think in the UK at the moment we have had a surfeit of "Muslim Issues" in the press. Check this forum, those who don't believe.

**Itchy** · 21-10-2006, 02:20 PM

Mad Dog. I'm about to have my breakfast here in Rome..

So I'll address your post 44 in two parts, one now and one later.

Part 1.

You've quoted a question I asked. And then not answered the question.

I know that the Veil is an expression of faith, but as I stated and as I ask.
How, given that most Muslims do not come from that part of the world, do you suppose that these women have come to choose that form of dress?

Why has that happened?

The reason I ask this question is because it goes to the heart of where and how Radical Islam is impacting British Muslims.

**HermantheGerman** · 21-10-2006, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Macha

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

A burka presents an extreme expression of an individuals religious preference.
I see no reason for these people to impose their extremism in a western workplace.
These fanatics should stay in Dubai. Oh yea but she would be beaten and whipped there for opening her mouth.
In western society they are allowed the freedom of protest.
A western employer also has a right to choose who he hires or fires.

When in Rome.....

Earl, I never came across someone like yourself, honestly. Where did you get that "Burka or whatever you call it presents an extreme expression of an individuals religious preference?"

Please do some research about Muslims and their beliefs before spouting shit. A veil is not a religious thing. It's a cultural thing. I hope you got it now.

I don't understand??
In Turkey or Pakistan some women wear no veil, half veil, full veil, Burka (with a few little dots to look out).
Does that mean that turkish or pakistani women have no cultur, half culture, full culture and some are so full of culture that they don't want to to be seen or can see themselves?

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