Thread: Tin foil hat time

^ We better check the net for more info on remains and luggage.

I just did.
All passenger remains was identified. WTF ?

Maybe my "data" are a bit wrong.

^ I remember seeing news on the wreckage, but never followed up with all the sh*t going on then. Remains sent home for burial?

Something definitly happened her

Is this supposed to be the same crashsite ?

The fuel must have been gone in seconds. Surrondings not burned

This is from Wiki ( maybe Daffy wrote it):
The plane fragmented upon impact, leaving a crater, and some debris was blown miles from the crash site. The remains of everyone on board the aircraft were later identified.

Originally Posted by helge

Something definitly happened her

Yes - a plane crashed.

The plane's Flight Recorder was found, which corroborated the incident; all passenger's remains have been identified (DNA is a wonderful thing); 95% of the Boeing 757's devris have been recovered and have been reconstructed (most of it buried in the ground by the speed of impact, or strewn around the area;



The engine was some distance from the crash site, and was found later. The fuselage section is well documented and pics are available on the interwebs if you look.



You may find this interesting, seeing how small a plane can be broken down to:



or this, seeing what happens to a plane when it hits a solid wall:



Again, I ask a simple question - if this wasn't Flight 93 that went down in Pennsylvania, then where is the actual plane, the passengers, and the crew (I don't even care what nuts claim went down - I'm just asking where the real passengers, crew and plane are -- all of which now no longer exist).

^ Good info. I never disputed it; I was less interested in this plane than the WTC horrors.

Originally Posted by helge

Well Rocket Science is just math, and here we are about beliefs. The Jihadists did it, or It was an inside job, or Someone knew, but did nothing to stop it. Which camp has the strongest case ? Time will tell, and then I'll fold

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Again, I ask a simple question - if this wasn't Flight 93 that went down in Pennsylvania, then where is the actual plane, the passengers, and the crew (I don't even care what nuts claim went down - I'm just asking where the real passengers, crew and plane are -- all of which now no longer exist).

Originally Posted by helge

I don't know

Originally Posted by helge

Maybe you are spot on.

.....

^^Well done with the cheerleading, although you're Daffy's girl

^ Am not. I'm Bear's girl.
Good debate on both sides. And no personal insults. I'm happy.

Originally Posted by helge

Which camp has the strongest case ?

Originally Posted by helge

Someone knew, but did nothing to stop it.

That one. Check out the Options trading in the couple of days prior to 911, and the non-attempts to divulge identities subsequently. Some convenient insurance transactions too, but much weaker evidence.

Otherwise- WTC 7, a bit suss.

Why do conspiracy theorists bark up every single tree, no matter how flimsy?

Originally Posted by sabang

Why do conspiracy theorists bark up every single tree, no matter how flimsy?

Because they lead empty lives, and they feel they can only fill them by bringing attention to their barking - no matter how idiotic.

Maybe their lives would be less empty and irrelevant if they had an education, a job, a girlfriend, or a hobby.

Do note how most of the fervent adherents to these conspiracy theories appear to conveniently evade the issue of their educational background (or, respond to such questions with base insults, as I recall) - it usually can best be summarized with "I'm not school smart, but I'm street smart".

In the end, it all comes down to a demonstration as to what happens when parents fail their responsibilities.

Originally Posted by helge

Well Rocket Science is just math, and here we are about beliefs.

Actually, a corrective comment -- no, it's not about belief - it's about facts.

Religion, an intangible crutch, is about belief - investigations and observations are about facts.

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Actually, a corrective comment -- no, it's not about belief - it's about facts. Religion, an intangible crutch, is about belief - investigations and observations are about facts.

Yes, but I guess it has happened, that the conclusion was reached before the blanks were filled in.

Originally Posted by sabang

That one. Check out the Options trading in the couple of days prior to 911, and the non-attempts to divulge identities subsequently. Some convenient insurance transactions too, but much weaker evidence.

Care to comment, Daffy ?

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by Jesus Jones

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Still waiting for a reply as to:

- what happened to the real planes
- what happened to real missing people
- How about the fire that didn't exist in WTC7

(whistles) (crickets chirping)

Who's saying there wasn't a fire. That's news to me.

And there was me thinking you'd actually read this thread
The aptly named madasafish said it.

Well then, he's obviously very mistaken. And no, i haven't read every reply to this thread.

Originally Posted by Jesus Jones

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

In the end, it all comes down to a demonstration as to what happens when parents fail their responsibilities.

Thank's for making what would otherwise have been a boring day for me.

The greatest comedian on TD!

Care to fill me in on those answers we're all waiting on? (in your case, we can eliminate the question on the fires, which, I guess, you admit did happen).

- What happened to the planes?
- What happened to the passengers?
- What happened to the crew?

Obviously, you must have answered it somewhere in this thread, and I must have missed it -- so, just point me to it...

Oh, what's that? You DIDN'T actually answer it? It slipped your mind? You had other important things to do?

Well, no matter -- go right ahead and answer it now. I'm not the only one waiting --- mine and a bunch of others', and your credibility are slowly getting strained...

(elevator music provided by the crickets chirping orchestra)

Originally Posted by helge

Originally Posted by sabang

That one. Check out the Options trading in the couple of days prior to 911, and the non-attempts to divulge identities subsequently. Some convenient insurance transactions too, but much weaker evidence.

Care to comment, Daffy ?

Did some people know about this impending attack, and possibly speculated financially on the outcome?

Of course - at the very least, those who organized, and planned the operation, would have had access to the information, timetables, and funds to speculatively invest, or short, relevant businesses. It's what I would have done, and it would have been a win/win situation.

In case of failure, you'd sell the investments within 48 hours, and no one would be the wiser, and you most likely lost nothing on the value. In case of success of the mission, you stand to profit significantly, and by the time you sold your positions, and erased your steps, it would be difficult to trace you (this assumes sufficient planning in advance, which the perpetrators obviously would have been able to do).

Thus, the fact that such transactions were noted means relatively little, except that it was a planned mission - it does not place into question the existence of the hijackers, the planes, the passengers, the crew, and the events.

I would like to take this moment, though, to express a certain admiration for the planners and organizers of these attacks -- disregarding the outcome having gone beyond their own expectations, it takes literally a mastermind to take 20 goat herders (mentally speaking) from a stock of uneducated, ill-tempered, peasants, and train them sufficiently so as to make it possible to pull off this kind of operation. This isn't to say that I admire THEM, or think what they did to be good (it was a despicable, terrible act), but being able to pull off such an operation, while essentially being handed retards as your foot soldiers is quite impressive.

Granted, that's more or less what the US uses as foot soldiers and cannon fodder as well (*cough* Abu Ghraib *cough*), so a comparison might be apt, but we generally use slightly more intelligent and educated stock for special missions in enemy territory. They can't.

Of course, it's also telling that they haven't managed much of anything since then...

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

I would like to take this moment, though, to express a certain admiration for the planners and organizers of these attacks --

Wow,for a splitsecond, I thought I was attending the Oscars

Originally Posted by GooMaiRoo

One of the following hypotheses is probably true. Which one is more likely?

1.) 19 ignorant 'goat herders' (some of whom had already been under surveillance and put on watch lists), very conspicuous in appearance, ethnicity and background, got past all security screenings and government surveillance to seize four commercial aircraft.

2.) The intelligence services of the USA and Israel conveniently looked the other way for this to happen in order to create a public consensus for US military involvement in Middle East.

You can't judge the soundness of any theory in a vacuum, as it's reasonableness can only be judged in relation to other existing theories. While either of the above explanations might be true, can't you see how a reasonable person might consider the second one to be more likely than the first?

Until you used the word 'reasonable' in that last sentence, I might have been willing to give you some credence -- as it stands, you carefully qualified both scenarios, and you particularly carefully edited that 1.) scenario description.

1.) 19 ignorant 'goat herders' (some of whom had already been under surveillance and put on watch lists), very conspicuous in appearance, ethnicity and background, got past all security screenings and government surveillance to seize four commercial aircraft.

Several factors greatly simplified the above scenario:

- The USA was in a significant state of denial and complacency when it came to internal security - the whole "the US has never been attacked on native soil" attitude.

- This kind of conversion of planes into weapons has *never* been tried before, and was a method of attack so unbelievably inconceivable, that it was not considered a viable threat -- as background, before 9/11, pilots and crew were instructed to cooperate with hijackers, and abide by their orders -- up until then, hijackers generally wanted to divert planes to different destinations and/or hold crew and passengers hostage for having their demands met. To be perfectly honest, before 9/11 if I had been on a plane that was being hijacked, I would have been more irked and annoyed, than fearful for my life (even if they were Muslim, my passport would protect me adequately). This all has changed with the events of 9/11 (as demonstrated with passengers beating the living shit out of other passengers getting unruly, or being trolls - if only this could happen on fora).

- While the FBI was apparently on top of terrorist threats intelligence, and they tried to brief the appropriate White House personnel, the Bush administration had vastly different priorities, and shot down FBI warnings, and slashed counter-terrorism budgets. Ashcroft has been investigated for not wanting to be 'bothered' about terrorist warnings the week before the attack -- a nice "oops!" for an idiot like Ashcroft, and I bet his God didn't warn him at his daily prayer meetings!

- Student visas for Middle Easter individual were very easy to get, because the Arabs were considered to be 'our friends' by the Bush Administration. Quite a few of the hijackers slid into the USA on such student visa. After all, much better to hold back those dangerous Thai girls, than these nice Saudi students.

- The Bush administration received a briefing on the Al Quaeda threat from the outgoing Clinton administration, which was ignored and shoved into a drawer.

So, if you combine general complacency, criminal complacency, and our old friend, incompetence (none of which were in short supply back then, or even right now), you create an atmosphere were such a scenario is far more likely to happen - in fact, ASKING to happen (bear in mind, the WTC was a target of an attack just several years earlier).

I have no doubt that if the Bush administration had not systematically dismantled, stifled and muzzled the intelligence community, 9/11 might have been avoided - thus, yes, there were factors on the US side that contributed to the attacks' success, but they were not deliberate or pre-planned.

I mean, look at how the Bush Administration has handled the subsequent Afghanistan and Iraq denouements - just in case you were looking for a demonstration of continued incompetence -- or even look as far back as the first Iraq war, which Bush Sr. mismanaged by aborting too soon. You don't have to weave an elaborate conspiracy scenario to see how all of this came together.