The abortion debate

[chitown]

You don't know anyone that agrees with a womans 'right to choose'- well that amazes me, really. I hardly know anyone that doesn't, including amongst my American friends.

What about the unborn child's "right to choose" to live?

Can the father decide if the mother of his child has an abortion or not?

Seems the woman has the right to choose for the man and the unborn child, and I think that is truly sad.

I have yet to meet a women that has had an abortion that is not crazier than a retired Patpong bar girl.

[ItsRobsLife]

What about the unborn child's "right to choose" to live?

I normally reserve these for Smeg..

..but you really deserve it for that little fantasy.

You sound just like one of the people in the video PH posted, the one where you said you saw some normal people, now I understand why.

[chitown]

It is a good thing your mom respected your right to live Robski.

Am I right or am I right, right, right, right, right.....

[chitown]

All a person has to do it look at their living child and vividly imagine that been ground up like a piece of beef. Just picture that lovely child of your chopped into little pieces and dumped in a plastic bag. Picture all that blood and gore.

It will make them revisit their view on abortion.

We talk a good talk when we loudly decry child abuse and pedophilia and then defend abortion.

[Butterfly]

you are being emotional, nobody is aborting just for the fuck of it, and yes abortion is a horrible thing, but life is full of horrible things like wars, and killing innocent civilians in the name of freedom,

grow a pair, will you ?

[AntRobertson]

All a person has to do it look at their living child and vividly imagine that been ground up like a piece of beef. Just picture that lovely child of your chopped into little pieces and dumped in a plastic bag. Picture all that blood and gore.

It will make them revisit their view on abortion.

We talk a good talk when we loudly decry child abuse and pedophilia and then defend abortion.

Sorry Chi, but that's a load of overly emotive tosh.

[chitown]

So you think baby murder is ok?

You children would be bursting with pride if you told them!!

he puts them forward in a rational manner.

really?

They (democrats)look to undermine the core values that a majority of the citizens want

the murdering of unborn children.

Promising one thing and having another agenda is the MO of the Dems.

I have a problem with a women claiming she is depressed and getting 1500 bucks a month to lay around and watch soaps on a 52' television.

[chitown]

I am not emotional about it at all. I just know the truth.

You are unemotional about it and flippantly think of abortion as just word.

nobody is aborting just for the fuck of it,

Yeah your right.

That line at Planned Parenthood in Rogers park in Chicago is women going in their to buy cosmetics. No it is not, it is women disposing of their unborn children.

[Butterfly]

you seem a lot concerned by aborted babies, and yet don't care about Children being blown apart in Iraq or Palestine, worse you seem to enjoy those scenes and support those doing the killing

[AntRobertson]

I am not emotional about it at all. I just know the truth.

So terms such as "baby murder" aren't emotive?

And what's this 'truth' you're referring to? You do know that it's the fetus that's aborted don't you, not babies.

You are unemotional about it and flippantly think of abortion as just word.

Kindly refrain from telling me how I feel or what I think about abortion.

[chitown]

^ Murder - that is what it is. If you kill an animal on the endangered species list you can get charged with a crime. If that animal is pregnant you get charged twice. I guess some animal is more important than an unborn child.

You accuse me of being emotional about it.

I accuse you of being unemotional about it.

Society today has been desensitized about many things. Abortion is one of them.

Again, good that your mom did not choose to have an abortion.

[AntRobertson]

You8 accuse me of being emotional about it.

No, I accuse you of using overly emotive language. And you are.

Again, good that your mom did not choose to have an abortion.

Now you're just being a wanker.

[raycarey]

Again, good that your mom did not choose to have an abortion.

Now you're just being a wanker.

yeah, nice touch bringing family into it.

classy!

[larvidchr]

You are getting hysterical RC, we are all born by our Mothers, and none of us would be here if our Mother had terminated the pregnancy, so now I have taken every TD posters family into the debate, that must be instant jail.

Try to calm down, the way Chitown puts it in context with the debate here about abortion, it is more of a generalisation about an obvious fact that applies to us all, and not a swipe directly against anybody's family members.

Do try to stay on the subject instead of trying to hype up something that is not there.

That said I do disagree with Chi on the abortion issue.

[sabang]

So you think baby murder is ok?

When the abortion of a foetus becomes 'murder', and when a foetus becomes a 'baby', is an entirely subjective POV/ argument. Their are certain Religious views (at conception), Legal (when the foetus becomes viable, i.e able to survive on it's own), and Ethical (Late term pregnancies), no doubt others. The current Rule of Law, as I understand it, is that a foetus begins to have limited 'human rights' at the onset of Late term gestation- which is before Viability. For this reason, late term abortions are extremely difficult to obtain, basically when the Mothers own life is endangered, or the foetus is severely deformed and of unlikely viability.

The point is, whatever an individuals personal opinion- which would presumably dictate their own choices and actions- since when can a 'Conservative' argue that this is the business of the State? It is no business of the State, no more than if I worship in a Wat, Church, Synagogue or not at all. It is no more the business of the State to tell a woman to have a baby than it is to tell a woman not to have a baby. This is the road to Totalitarianism, where the rights of the Individual are totally subsumed to the opinions of the State, or whomsoever may control it at the time.

Logical arguments can be made by a conservative that the State should play no part in carrying out or subsidising abortions- it is after all an elective procedure; and/or that the Rule of Law applies to the baby/foetus at a certain stage- the debate would tend to be Late term gestation, or Viability. Otherwise, you are only a 'conservative' when it suits your own existing opinions, which is then not a conservative at all.

[sabang]

Here ya go- split from the 'Fox News (?) thread. Enjoy.

[Whiteshiva]

All a person has to do it look at their living child and vividly imagine that been ground up like a piece of beef.

What about using condoms or having a good old-fashioned wank (or getting a blowjob) - isn't that also depriving potential children their right to be born?

What about people who after an ultrasound find out theat the featus is deformed and then decide to have an abortion - do you condem that as well?

Or the women who realise that they are in no shape to take care of a kid, isn't having an abortion actually a lesser sin than giving birth to an unwanted child?

[Marmite the Dog]

I thought it was only extremists like Muslims & Americans who still need to debate this?

[StrontiumDog]

I strongly believe it is a women's choice and men should stay the hell away from deciding this issue for women.

For the record I've known several women who have had abortions. For some it was a trouble free necessity, for others it deeply upset them. Individual differences apply.

I think it should be available to those who want it. Many women choose to have a child, some don't. Up to them.

[raycarey]

it should be available to those who want it.

Precisely.

[Stinky]

it should be available to those who want it.

Precisely.

Agree, it's a personal choice, neither politicians nor religious nuts should have any say in it

[ItsRobsLife]

What about the unborn child's "right to choose" to live?

Well as you have decided to make an issue of it I'll entertain you, though I assume that you already have your mind set on the subject and you have no real interest in discussion.

At what age do you believe a fetus becomes autonomous in it's decisions?

[chitown]

What about people who after an ultrasound find out theat the featus is deformed and then decide to have an abortion - do you condem that as well?

I know two couples where they were told the baby would be "deformed" and neither babies were. I also know one woman that expected to have a healthy baby and she was born with 2 arms and two legs. After multiple surgeries, she was fine. She was a the team captain of her high school volleyball team, was a super softball player, a cheerleader, and on top of all that was valedictorian of her graduating class this year. Now she is on a full uni scholarship.

All that to say, you never know.

Or the women who realise that they are in no shape to take care of a kid, isn't having an abortion actually a lesser sin than giving birth to an unwanted child?

What about women that can't care for their kids after they are born? It is a sad selfish excuse for a woman to say she can't care for a child and abort. We have a generation of wimps in the world right now with no character at all.

[chitown]

At what age do you believe a fetus becomes autonomous in it's decisions?

At what age is a child old enough to make his own decision? Maybe we should let some of these teens commit suicide because they feel like it.

The fact is the baby can't makes its own decision and sadly its future is made for them.

[chitown]

Now you're just being a wanker.

Not trying to be at all and I would hope you would know me better than that.

My point is quit valid and not intended as a family attack.

Just one decision like a abortion could alter the future.

You have lovely children Ant. You seems to have a nice family and a wonderful life. Your being in Thailand has impacted many Thais and farangs. You never being born would certainly alter all future events of every life that you have touched.

That was point and I am sorry if I offended you.