Thread: The headbangers

Originally Posted by machangezi

Originally Posted by Milkman

Originally Posted by machangezi

Ahem ..... four hours, 17 views and 0 replies!

I know I've said negative things in the past but I don't feel that way now.

Most Muslims are moderates and I only dislike the actions of certain fundies.

But I have the same opinion of Xtian, and Jewish fundies, and fundamentalists of all walks.

Don't worry Milky. You have every right to your opinions.

Just post your questions/doubts about towel heads in here. I am sure you'll find a reasonable answer to every question.

My opinion about Islam is similar (actually the same) as my opinion about Xtianity, Judaism, Mormons, etc.

Although I don't know all of the details of these religions, I have took classes and read up on them.

My opinion about Islam is actually my opinion about all organized religions.

Originally Posted by machangezi

Ahem ..... four hours, 17 views and 0 replies!

OK, I'll bite.

Even in English the verse you quoted is inaccurate. You left out an important qualification. The verse in full says

"For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land"

The "unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land" is extremely important and has been used by terrorists to justify their actions. "whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men" is very different to " "Saving one life is like saving the whole humanity.", even allowing for different tranlators.

There is also this, from the Sura "The Pilgrimage" (22, 39-40)

"Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty"

I don't see any blanket condemnation there of fighting, killing, or war, permission is granted to fight against those who fight against or oppress Islam or Muslims and that is the justification used by salafists and jihadis from Qutb to Bin Laden for their actions. As with all scripture it's a matter of interpretation and the small minority of Muslims who support Islamist terrorism have no problem interpreting those verses to fit with their aims.

This longish essay was written by Shaykh Fāris Az-Zahrānī, an influential AQ idealogue (now in prison in Saudi Arabia, I think) and is an interesting insight into how a jihadist justifies his actions. It starts with a story justifying fighting and ends with a call to arms. It includes quotes from Sayyid al-Qutb, the founding father of the modern Jihadist philosophy, fundamentally it was al-Qutb who reinterpreted the Quran to justify the religious war he dreamed of and his followers, particularly in Algeria, have gone so far as to even reinterpret the definition of a Muslim in order to justify their mass slaughters of Muslims in that country. Something which often goes unnoticed in the west is the fact that there have probably been more Muslims killed by these Jihadis than any other group of people.

It was the sixth year after Hijrah, in the month of Thul-Qi’dah – the Prophet (salutations and peace be upon him) and his Companions (may Allāh be pleased with them) headed towards Makkah, to perform the ‘Umrah – and with him were 1,500 Companions, as is narrated by Al-Bukhārī and Muslim from Jābir (may Allāh be pleased with him); and it is also narrated by them on his authority, “… they were 1,400…” And it is narrated by them two from ‘Abdullāh ibn ‘Abī Awfā (may Allāh be pleased with him), “… we were 1,300…”

Qatādah said, “I asked Sa’īd ibn Al-Musayyib: How many were those who witnessed the Bay’ah Ar-Ridhwān (The Pledge of Allegiance of the Pleasure [of Allāh])?” He replied, “1,500.” So I told him that Jābir ibn ‘Abdillāh said that they were 1,400 – so he replied, “May Allāh have mercy upon him! He was mistaken then! He himself told me that they were 1,500.”

Ibn Al-Qayyim (may Allāh have mercy upon him) said: “Both reports are authentically narrated from Jābir.”

The Prophet (salutations and peace be upon him) sent a man from the tribe of Khuzā’ah to spy and report back to him regarding the Quraysh. So the spy returned, and informed the Prophet (salutations and peace be upon him) that the Quraysh had gathered those who lived around Makkah against him, and formed a pact to fight him and his Companions if he continued with the intention of entering Makkah to visit the House [Ka’bah]. So the Messenger of Allāh (salutations and peace be upon him) took consultation from his companions, saying: “Advise me! Do you think we should target the children of those who helped them (the enemies), so we kill them; and if they remain sitting, then they will sit as those whose families have been killed, and property been seized and if they do not come then it will be a neck, which Allāh has cut? Or do you see that we should travel to the House [Ka’bah] and then whoever prevents us from it, we fight him?”

So Abū Bakr (may Allāh be pleased with him) said, “Allāh and His Messenger know best! We only came here to perform the ‘Umrah, and we did not come to fight anyone. But if anyone comes in between us and the House (i.e. Ka’bah), then we will fight him.” So the Messenger of Allāh (salutations and peace be upon him) replied, “Relax then.”

So when the Prophet (and the Companions) neared Makkah, and the Quraysh were alarmed of his coming – the Messenger of Allāh (salutations and peace be upon him) decided to send one of his Companions to them. So he called upon ‘Umar ibn Al-Khattāb, so he could send him to them. So he said, “O Messenger of Allāh! I do not have anyone from Banū Ka’b who would be angered on my behalf if I were to be tortured. So send ‘Uthmān ibn ‘Affān, for indeed he has his relatives there, and he is capable of conveying what you want.”

So the Messenger (salutations and peace be upon him) called upon ‘Uthmān, and sent him to the Quraysh, and ordered him, “Notify them that we did not come to fight; we have only come to perform the ‘Umrah. And call them to Islām.” And he ordered him to go to the Believing men and women of Makkah, and give them glad tidings of the Victory, and to notify them that Allāh (Most High) will make His Dīn manifest, such that no one would have to hide their Īmān.

So ‘Uthmān went forth, and came to the Quraysh. They asked him, “What do you want?” He replied, “The Messenger of Allāh sent me to call you to Allāh and to Islām; and that I notify you that we did not come to fight, we have only come to perform the ‘Umrah.” So they replied, “We have heard what you have to say – so complete your needs.” So Ubān ibn Sa’īd ibn Al-‘Ās stood up and welcomed him and saddled his horse, and put ‘Uthmān on his horse and led it, and Ubān followed it until he reached Makkah. Then the Muslims, before ‘Uthmān returned back, said, “‘Uthmān went to the Ka’bah before us, and has already performed Tawāf around it!” So the Messenger of Allāh replied, “I do not think that he would perform Tawāf around the House while we are besieged.” So they asked, “O Messenger of Allāh! What would prevent him from it, when he has already been freed!?” So the Messenger (peace be upon him) replied, “That is how I think of him – that he would not perform the Tawāf of the Ka’bah until we perform it along with him.”

So the Muslims became intermingled with the mushrikīn during the (arrangement) of the Treaty, and then a man from one of the two parties shot a man from the other party – and a battle broke out, and they exchanged arrows and stones. So then both parties shouted out (to stop), and everyone from both parties secured everyone in them. And (a rumor) reached the Messenger of Allāh (salutations and peace be upon him) that his ambassador, ‘Uthmān, had been killed. So the Messenger said, “We will not leave until we have finished off these people,” and he decided to fight, and he called for the Pledge of Allegiance (Bay’ah), and the Muslims rushed to the Messenger (peace be upon him) while he was under the tree, and they gave him a Pledge of Allegiance that they would not run away (from the battle) – and in one narration, they took a Pledge for death. So the Messenger of Allāh (salutations and peace be upon him) took it with his own hand, and said, “This is for ‘Uthmān.”

And ‘Umar (may Allāh be pleased with him) took hold of the hand of the Messenger of Allāh (salutations and peace be upon him) for the Bay’ah, underneath the tree, and all the Muslims pledged allegiance, except for Al-Jadd ibn Qays. And the first person to give the Bay’ah to the Messenger (salutations be upon him) was Abū Sinān Al-Asadī (may Allāh be pleased with him). And Salamah ibn Al-Akwa’ gave the Bay’ah (Pledge of Allegiance) three times, at the beginning, at the middle, and at the end of the people…

Yes, for the sake of one man, all the Muslims came together and pledged allegiance for death – and to not run away from the battle; and Allāh sent down Verses regarding them, which are recited till this day of ours – and that Pledge of Allegiance was named “Bay’ah Ar-Ridhwān” (The Pledge of Allegiance of the Pleasure [of Allāh]); and Allāh gave them glad tidings of Paradise, and that they were the best people in the world – as is narrated in Sahīh Al-Bukhārī, “Today, you are the best people in the world.”

And here we are today, in the Arabian Peninsula, the Tawāghīt (oppressive false deities) of Āl Sa’ūd tyrannize, and the armies of the Tāghūt, and the collaborators of the Crusaders have become emboldened, such that they have killed the Mujāhid Commander, Khālid Hāj, and his brother Ibrāhīm Al-Mazīnī – and by Allāh, their blood will not go cheaply; we must take revenge for them. And I am absolutely certain, that the Mujāhidīn have dedicated themselves to finish these (apostate) people off, and to not turn their backs – Rather, they have dedicated themselves to the Pledge for Death, in hope that Allāh becomes pleased with them.

The battle has merely begun, and the blood of the Mujāhidīn – Khālid Hāj, Yūsuf Al-‘Uyayrī, Turkī Ad-Dandanī, Ahmad Ad-Dukhayyil, and many more –[4] their blood will not go without any cost. Rather, it will remain as a fuel for the battles to rage, a provision for the Path, a Light for the Mujāhidīn, and a blazing fire upon the apostates and Crusaders.

And Ibn Al-Qayyim (may Allāh have mercy upon him) said in Zād Al-Ma’ād, “And the Prophet (salutations and peace be upon him) used to take the Pledge of Allegiance from his Companions during war, upon the Bay’ah to not run away, and sometimes he took from them the Pledge of Allegiance for Death, and for Jihād, just as he also took from them the Bay’ah upon Islām, and also upon Hijrah, before the Conquest of Makkah. And he also took from them the Pledge of Allegiance for Tawhīd, and to adhere to Obedience to Allāh and His Messenger. And he took Bay’ah from some of the Companions that they would not ask anything from people.”

And to give the Bay’ah for Death is from the legislated matters, as has been narrated by Ibn Kathīr, in the story of ‘Ikrimah ibn Abī Jahl on the Day of the Battle of Yarmūk, that he said, “I fought against the Messenger of Allāh in each place, and today I retreat from you (i.e. Romans)!?” So he then called anyone who would give the Bay’ah (pledge of allegiance) for death. So Al-Hārith ibn Hishām and Dhirār ibn al-Azwar gave him the Bay’ah along with four hundred Muslims and knights. So they all fought in front of the camp of Khālid, till they all became injured and martyred- except a few, and amongst them was Dhirār ibn al-Azwar. And Al-Wāqidī and others mentioned, that when they fell down from injuries, they asked to drink water – and when it was brought to one of them, he would see another (injured man), and he would say, “Give him the water,” – and when it was offered to him, he would see another (injured man), and he would say, “Give him the water,”; So each one of them refused to drink the water to give it to the other brother, until all of them died, and none had drunk the water. May Allāh be well pleased with them all.”

And I have mentioned this story to emphasize the legislation of the Bay’ah for Death, for indeed this Bay’ah was bound in front of the eyes and ears of more than 1,000 of the Companions, and amongst them were 100 from those who participated in the Battle of Badr, and the commander of the army that day was Khālid ibn Al-Walīd – yet, none of them objected to ‘Ikrimah; Rather, they all approved this deed of his. Ibn Kathīr (may Allāh have mercy upon him) said, “Sayf ibn ‘Umar said, with his Isnād, from his teachers: They said that in that assembly – the army of the Muslims at Yarmūk – was 1,000 men from the Companions, and amongst them 100 of the People of Badr.”

Sayyid Qutb (may Allāh have mercy upon him) said, “This lesson – the Bay’ah of Ridhwān – every bit of it is speaking about the Believers, and speaking to the Believers – to that unique, joyous assembly which gave their Pledge of Allegiance to the Messenger of Allāh (salutations and peace be upon him), under the tree – and Allāh was Witness to the taking place of this Bay’ah, and His Hand was above their hands. They were the assembly which heard Allāh (Most Lofty) to His Messenger saying regarding them:

“Indeed, Allāh was pleased with the Believers when they gave their Bay’ah to you (O Muhammad) under the tree, He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquility upon them, and He rewarded them with a near victory.”

And they heard the Messenger of Allāh saying to them, “Today, you are the best people in the world…” And today – after one thousand and four hundred years (and more) – I try to sense the honour of that holy moment, when all that exists witnessed that Lofty Noble Message, from Allāh, the Highest, the Most Supreme, to His Trustworthy Messenger, regarding the Group of Believers… I try to sense the honour of that moment, when He is answering all of them with the Noble Lordly Words, speaking about those standing men, at the specific place in creation… I try to get some sense of feeling of how were those joyous ones, who were hearing with their own ears – that the ones being mentioned, were them – each person and individual: Allāh is saying regarding them, that He is pleased with them, and He specifies the place were in, and the deed which they were doing, when they had earned the Pleasure of Allāh…

“…when they gave their Bay’ah to you (O Muhammad) under the tree…”
They hear this from their Prophet, As-Sādiq Al-Masdūq (The Truthful, The Belief-Worthy), the Speech of their Lord, the Most Supreme, the Majestic…
O for Allāh! How did they – those Joyous ones – go through that holy moment, and that Godly Message? The Message which was speaking of each one of them, themselves, and saying to each one of them: You, to you Allāh is notifying you that He is indeed pleased with you when you gave the Pledge of Allegiance under the tree, and He knew what was in your heart, so He sent down tranquility upon you!

Verily, one of us reads, or hears, the following verse, and becomes joyous:

“Allāh is the Guardian of those who have Īmān…"

He says to himself, “Do I not hope to be included as one of them?”

Or he reads or hears:

“Truly, Allāh is with the patient ones…”

And he finds comfort, and says to himself, “Do I not hope to be one of these patient ones?”

But those men, they were hearing, and they were receiving a message, each one of them, each one… that Allāh was intending him specifically, and he was being conveyed that: Indeed, He is pleased with him, and He knew what was in his heart, and He was pleased with what was in his heart!
O for Allāh! It is a matter which is tremendous!

“Indeed, Allāh was pleased with the Believers when they gave their Bay’ah to you (O Muhammad) under the tree, He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquility upon them, and He rewarded them with a near victory.”

He knew what was in their hearts, of protecting and defending, not their own selves, but their Dīn… and He knew what was in their hearts, of true sincerity in their Pledge of Allegiance… and He knew what was in their hearts of when they suppressed their emotional reactions when they are inflamed… and how they set aside their feelings in order to stand behind the command of the Messenger, obedient, as Muslims, and patient.

“… so He sent down tranquility upon them…” with such phrasing which He described the tranquility, coming down in ease, gracefully, and in dignity; filling those heated, zealous, incited, emotional hearts, with coolness, tranquility, rest, and calmness.” [End of the words of Sayyid Qutb, may Allāh have mercy upon him]

And so now, I ask each and every single Muslim who reads this – I say:

What are we doing about the Shaykh ‘Umar ‘Abdur-Rahmān who is in the prisons of America?

What are we doing about the Mujāhid, Ramzī Yūsuf, and the Mujāhid, Abū Hājar Al-‘Irāqī, who are both in the prisons of America?

What are we doing about our imprisoned brothers in Guantanamo?

What are we doing about the ‘Ulamā of the Muslims who are imprisoned in the dungeons of the Tawāghīt and apostates?

What are we doing about the rest of the weak and oppressed Muslims who are abandoned behind bars?

O for Allāh! A Bay’ah for Death, and not to turn back, for the sake of one man – ‘Uthmān ibn ‘Affān – was given to the Messenger of Allāh (salutations and peace be upon him)!! And today, the massacred ones from this Ummah, and our prisoners, have reached the hundreds and thousands – and yet, we haven’t given a pure and sincere Pledge of Allegiance for Allāh, by which we can have our sins forgiven… nay, not even a hair moves to do something about this!!
Where are the ones who will be true to what they promised Allāh with? Where are the Shabāb (Youth) of Islām?

Where are the ones who will take vengeance for the sake of their Dīn, their honour, and for their Brothers, for their Ummah!?
Our Dīn has been warred against, our Lord and Prophet have been cursed and reviled, our lands have been invaded – while we are passive, unmindful, and “too busy”?!!

Our wealth is plundered, while we are in amusements!?
Our brave ones and the best of us are killed, and we remain sitting?!
Until when, O Youth of Islām? Until when… until when?

At the following web link, there are 164 documented Koran verses dealing with Jihad:

"164 Jihad Verses in the Koran -- Passages in the Quran about Islamic Holy War" compiled by Yoel Natan

From chapter 8, verse 12 of the Quran: "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them." This has also been translated as: "I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." Ouch.

In Islam's defense, stoning adulterers was never actually in the Kuran. In chapter 24, verse 2: "The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication flog each of them".

I'm open-minded enough to listen to alternate explanations of those Jihad references, but I've got to say that I'm very skeptical of any claims about Islam's peaceful nature. The Muslims that I've met generally seem to be decent people. Any Muslim-bashing that I engage in is based on a common-sense, literal reading of violent passages from the Quran as well as my understanding of seemingly barbaric Sharia law. Sufism seems to be a very mystical and non-violent sect of Islam, but it hasn't really taken hold in the general populace.

Originally Posted by Begbie

Hopefully Macha will read the above and see the error of his ways, converting to secularism.

The difference between us, IMHO is that Muslims are taught at a very early age to believe the Koran is the literal word of God. This makes for a very fixed mentality. Mainstream christains at least have no such illusions. Personally I feel that this makes most Muslims closed to debate. They generally only want to get their message across.

While that's true the problem lies in the interpretation of the fixed word of God. I've written a long article about how the Jihadists have reinterpreted the Koran to fit in with their views and on the concept of abnegation as developed by Muslim theologians. After Macha responds to my other long post above I plan to post my new article as it raises a lot more questions and it would be interesting to see how a non-jihadi Muslim responds to them.