Thread: Brexit - It's Still On!

Originally Posted by Troy

This is a false reading of the GE as others have tried to explain. If the brexit policy being sought by PM May was considered the way forward by the majority of the electorate then a landslide victory would have been the result. In fact we ended up with a hung parliament, which was worse than May had to start with.

What is false? Are you saying the Tories and Labour didn't have in their respective manifestos to implement Brexit? And over 550 out of 650 current mps stood on manifestos to implement Brexit? These are facts not falsehoods, both Labour and the Tories were Brexit parties at the last GE no matter how you try to convince yourself otherwise.

Originally Posted by buriramboy

The only ways to stop a clean Brexit are voting for Doris deal, extending or revoking article 50, that's it buttercup, nothing else on the table.

Yes, A50 is the transition period, that's why it exists, and while it could be extended, since everything in any agreement is on the table if all parties agree to it, there would need to be determination by both sides to first recognise there are difficult and critical issues at stake and then that they intend to resolve them. In this case, and it's just mho, the EU would need to make 'clarifications', read concessions, which they are holding in reserve, to ease the current deal through Parliament.

Ref1 is done; if there is a Ref2 it can only be no deal or rotten deal, any other options with the EU refusing to talk further would fail to satisfy the democratic 'will of the people' that some no-names pretend to treasure.

Originally Posted by Troy

It is interesting to note that Farage said in May 2016 should the referendum be in favour of remain by a small majority he would campaign for a second referendum. I think both sides accept that Farage is a divisive idiot, much like his few remaining supporters. A busted flush.

I am not in favour of referendums as I believe the electorate are not in a position to decide the best course of action and should leave it to their elected representatives In a perfect world perhaps. As they have been found wanting already, they are the last people you should trust
In the case of brexit, it has been achieved despite less than 30% of Parliament wanting it prior to the referendum and the majority of the electorate not knowing what the complications of leaving involve. They also have a better understanding of what life could be like, trapped in the EU. Now the answers are clearer a more informed decision can be made, preferably by Parliament alone.ment that was so hell bent on rejecting the May dealA deeply divided parliament that was recently hell bent on rejecting the May fiasco that you so warmly support.
Your argument about 80% electorate wanting brexit due to them voting for the two main parties, both having it in their manifesto does not hold water. It would only be valid if one of the main parties had it in the manifesto or the GE was solely on brexit as a policy. Fortunately Parliament can see through these fallicies even if the electorate canno.Parliament is as divided as the country, if not more so P

All good points Troy, but clearly lacking for the reasons stated. The bottom line is, you want to stay in the crooked federalist state with all its failings and the potential for future disaster. I want to avoid that and restore control of the UK to those who I can elect and unseat, every 5 years.
The EU is definitely not to be trusted.
The whole is one massive clusterfuck and staying in the EU will lead to more long term suffering for current and future generations. Getting out now will cause some short term difficulties for both sides. I don’t want to stay in the EU and get dragged down by their petty bitching form of overt control.

Without significant changes I would rather keep on pedalling with a no deal.

Originally Posted by foobar

Strawman arguments are a sure sign of a weak intellect and/or an inability to compose a robust argument against the actual point being made.


But, thanks once again for confirming that Brexiteers only support the will of the people and democracy as long as it conforms to their world view as rendered by The Daily Express/Mail.

Gee, thanks for the lesson, I always thought the Thai way is best for people that refuse to vote the right way.

Farage, the divisive idiot, the busted flush, as you put it, is the reason for this brexit dilemma in the first place. There was no need for the referendum in the first place and it is in danger of causing the final downfall of a once great nation.

For the umpteenth time, I don't want the May agreement, I want A50 to be revoked.

Originally Posted by buriramboy

How can say the argument doesn't hold water, both Tories and Labour stood on a manifesto to implement Brexit. All their candidates stood on that manifesto. And over 80% of the electorate voted for parties vowing to implement Brexit. The Libdems against it got what 5% of the vote and 10 mps. UKIP vote share collapsed as people were happy to vote Labour and Tory again believing Brexit would be implemented. People had their chance to vote against Brexit twice and blew it. We are leaving in one form or another.

so because UKIP and the unelectable LibDems didn't have Brexit in their manifesto, it means we all voted for Brexit? allo, logic 101?

The 2 main parties basically gave no choice to voters to voice their concern about Brexit, and if they wanted to make a point, it was through unelectable parties like LibDems and UKIP, but why even bother?

No need for the referendum? Over 33 mill thought otherwise enough to be bothered to vote in it. A50 won't be revoked, best you can hope for is it gets extended but all 27 EU countries would have to agree to that and Doris would have even less credibility than she does now if that's possible were she to apply to extend A50. Extending it is pointless as the EU have repeatedly said this is the only deal. So spineless mps either cave in and accept Doris deal which they No doubt will or it's a clean Brexit.

Originally Posted by Troy

Areyou blind to the stalemate that the brexit referendum has caused? Can you not see how brexit will cause untold damage to the UK? Or are you a Gove disciple preferring not to listen to what experts say?

True the brexit vote hasn't caused the nightmare scenario predicted before the referendum but many still don't believe the Government are stupid enough to force a hard brexit through.

Such a drastic change requires more than a single referendum with such a small majority in favour.

I think when the papers were drawn nobody seriously considered the likelihood of a member wishing to leave; it is not easy for people in their time to project the world evolving as it does. If they had, and it's always easier with hindsight, A50 would have been designed as a gradual withdrawal, in stages, perhaps extended to address specific situations such as the Irish border and whatever may be pertinent to other countries. Drafters may also consider installing parameters for conducting a leave referendum, % needed for a decision, etc.

And it would help from a practical viewpoint if there weren't so many lies from both camps, because as it turned out the Brexiteers' were more persuasive.

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

so because UKIP and the unelectable LibDems didn't have Brexit in their manifesto, it means we all voted for Brexit? allo, logic 101?

The 2 main parties basically gave no choice to voters to voice their concern about Brexit, and if they wanted to make a point, it was through unelectable parties like LibDems and UKIP, but why even bother?

People voted for parties who had in their manifesto to implement Brexit. No gun was pointed at their head to make them vote Labour or Tory. Labour could have stood on an anti Brexit manifesto but chose not to as Corbyn is a Brexiteer and would have cost them 4-5 million votes had he done so. Remain parties lost vote share at the last GE.

Originally Posted by buriramboy

Troys anger should be directed at the EU as the UK has said all EU nationals currently here can stay but unless I've missed it the petty vindictive EU haven't given the same guarantee to UK nationals living in the EU.

May is a politician with a huge ego, not a hard nosed negotiator, yet it was her call to take charge, walk in blinkered and be the first to commit before anything was offered in return. This is not the way to negotiate, not for leaving the EU or buying a condo.

So, poor show, and imv the final outcome whether no deal or vassal state is better than the current uncertainty.

^ She can't afford a quarter of a million Brits returning from Spain.

Originally Posted by Troy

^ She can't afford a quarter of a million Brits returning from Spain.

Neither can Spain.

Originally Posted by buriramboy

No need for the referendum? Over 33 mill thought otherwise enough to be bothered to vote in it. A50 won't be revoked, best you can hope for is it gets extended but all 27 EU countries would have to agree to that and Doris would have even less credibility than she does now if that's possible were she to apply to extend A50. Extending it is pointless as the EU have repeatedly said this is the only deal. So spineless mps either cave in and accept Doris deal which they No doubt will or it's a clean Brexit.

Pointless extending A50 without EU commitment to significant concessions.

Looking long term rather than the tenure of an MP that quakes each time GE is mentioned, no deal is probably best for UK, or something far distant from the crap deal, but that's not going to happen. My unqualified opinion is that the EU decline will gain momentum as its gods make increasingly bizarre decisions that they really haven't thought through properly, for instant popular gratification over what's best for the Union and its members. Had they kept this monster on the leash as an economic and trading union it could have gone places; instead it went to their heads.

Germany cannot and will not make up the shortfall after we leave, and 39 or 59bn will not last long under the control of leaders that are short of appeal when it comes to having their own accounts signed off; so where is the money coming from, to pay for ever growing budget needs and vanity projects like an EU Army, which after being paid for it's normal to maintain?

And when Greece and Italy and others go cap in hand to the OIB...

Bring it on!

Originally Posted by Troy

^ She can't afford a quarter of a million Brits returning from Spain.

Can Spain can afford it?

I think France rather than Germany is where future issues will come from as the Frogs are going to have to cough up a lot more and a lot of anti EU feeling in France will make it a hard sell to the people. Plus if they ever round to reforming the CAP which France makes out like a bandit from, those restless froggies will be on the streets in ever greater numbers than now.

^^ There's a dance in there somewhere...

Originally Posted by buriramboy

I think France rather than Germany is where future issues will come from as the Frogs are going to have to cough up a lot more and a lot of anti EU feeling in France will make it a hard sell to the people. Plus if they ever round to reforming the CAP which France makes out like a bandit from, those restless froggies will be on the streets in ever greater numbers than now.

The EU have already published their post brexit budgetary planning if you care to read it. The extra burden on the Germans is well known to cause much worse issues than brexit so it will be the aligning of poorer nations that will suffer.

if you think the EU are being negative about Brexit just wait until the UK requests to join again if it does leave. This is gonna be one of those expensive mistakes that no-one would wish on their worst enemies....

The UK will never apply to rejoin. Although your confidence in the EU continuing in its present form is laughable. If the UK becomes a success outside the EU that's the end and Brussels knows it.

...which is why spite, malice and obstruction will be what we should expect. But we won't, not our lot!

^ My confidence comes from working with Germans, French, Italians and Spanish for over 15 years as well as speaking to Dutch, Swedish and Luxembourg friends. We don't always see eye-to-eye but the EU is not top of anyone's hate list.

The Brexiteer blockheads from UK underdeveloped regions will be the first to scream once EU funding is withdrawn.

Originally Posted by stroller

The Brexiteer blockheads from UK underdeveloped regions will be the first to scream once EU funding is withdrawn.

There is no EU funding, it's UK taxpayers money that they kindly give us a small fraction back and dictate where it's spent.

Originally Posted by Troy

^ My confidence comes from working with Germans, French, Italians and Spanish for over 15 years as well as speaking to Dutch, Swedish and Luxembourg friends. We don't always see eye-to-eye but the EU is not top of anyone's hate list.

Try mingling with the large number of unemployed youth in Spain and Italy, they may have a different view when you ask them how the EU has benefited them.

Originally Posted by stroller

The Brexiteer blockheads from UK underdeveloped regions will be the first to scream once EU funding is withdrawn.

The best part will be when immigrants from India and Africa, complete with work visas, start flooding their neighbourhoods, driving down wages to levels never seen before, the Brexiteers will be begging for the poles to come back and their eyes will glisten when they remember the good old days of being part of the EU.

Boris and Jacob will be sniggering all the way to the bank.