Thread: Airline News

A Boeing 737 Max 8 made an emergency landing after an engine problem

A Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft from the fleet that was grounded after two deadly crashes made an emergency landing in Florida on Tuesday.

No passengers were aboard Southwest Airlines Flight 8701, which was being ferried from Orlando International Airport to Victorville, California, for short-term storage during the grounding, the airline said.

Just before 3 p.m. Tuesday, the two pilots aboard the flight reported "a performance issue with one of the engines shortly after takeoff," the airline said.
"The crew followed protocol and safely landed back at the airport."

The global fleet of 737 Max jets was grounded indefinitely on March 13 after two fatal crashes involving the aircraft in March and October.

It is not clear if Tuesday's emergency landing was related to suspected problems with the aircraft. An investigation into the crashes focuses on an automated anti-stall system and not engine problems.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/26/u...ing/index.html

Originally Posted by OhOh

You know it makes sense."

Not something for which you're famous, is it.

By Jack Nicas, James Glanz and David Gelles

March 25, 2019

During flight simulations recreating the problems with the doomed Lion Air plane, pilots discovered that they had less than 40 seconds to override an automated system on Boeing’s new jets and avert disaster.

The pilots tested a crisis situation similar to what investigators suspect went wrong in the Lion Air crash in Indonesia last fall. In the tests, a single sensor failed, triggering software designed to help prevent a stall.

Once that happened, the pilots had just moments to disengage the system and avoid an unrecoverable nose dive of the Boeing 737 Max, according to two people involved in the testing in recent days. Although the investigations are continuing, the automated system, known as MCAS, is a focus of authorities trying to determine what went wrong in the Lion Air disaster in October and the Ethiopian Airlines crash of the same Boeing model this month.

The software, as originally designed and explained, left little room for error. Those involved in the testing hadn’t fully understood just how powerful the system was until they flew the plane on a 737 Max simulator, according to the two people.

Compounding the flaws, pilots received limited training about the system before the first crash. During the final minutes, the captain of the Lion Air flight flipped through a technical manual trying to figure out what was happening.

In a tacit acknowledgment of the system’s problems, Boeing is expected to propose a software update that would give pilots more control over the system and make it less likely to trigger erroneously, according to three people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the private meetings.

There are common procedures in place to counteract MCAS, as currently designed. If the system starts pushing the plane’s nose down, pilots can reverse the movement via a switch at their thumb, a typical reaction in that situation. In doing so, they can potentially extend the 40-second window, giving them more time to avoid a crash.

To fully neutralize the system, pilots would need to flip two more switches. That would shut off the electricity to a motor that allows the system to push the plane toward the ground. Then the pilots would need to crank a wheel to correct whatever problems had emerged.
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The pilots, in the simulations, followed such procedures to successfully shut off the system and land safely. But they did so with a far better understanding of how it worked and prior knowledge that it would be triggered — benefits that the pilots of the fatal 737 Max crashes did not have.

If pilots don’t act hastily enough, attempts to disable the system can be too late. In the Lion Air crash, pilots used the thumb switch more than two dozen times to try to override the system. The system kept engaging nonetheless, most likely because of bad readings from a sensor, until the plane crashed into the Java Sea, killing all 189 people on board.

John Cox, an aviation safety consultant and a former 737 pilot, said pilots are highly likely to use the thumb switch to extend the 40-second window to several minutes. But that may still not be enough time to diagnose and solve the problem, especially if the pilots, like the Lion Air crew, were not informed of the system.

“There is a limited window to solve this problem, and this crew didn’t even know that this system existed,” he said.

A Boeing spokesman said that existing procedures for flying the 737 Max include how to respond to similar conditions. The spokesman added that Boeing had reinforced those procedures in a bulletin to pilots after the Lion Air crash.

“Our proposed software update incorporates additional limits and safeguards to the system and reduces crew workload,” the spokesman said in a statement.

The new software system was designed to be a safety feature, operating in the background to help avoid a stall. Taking data from a sensor, the system would engage if the nose of the jet was too high. It would then push down the nose of the plane to keep it from stalling.

In the current design, the system engages for 10 seconds at a time, with five-second pauses in between. Under conditions similar to the Lion Air flight, three engagements over just 40 seconds, including pauses, would send the plane into an unrecoverable dive, the two people involved in the testing said.

That conclusion agreed with a separate analysis by the American Airlines pilots’ union, which examined available data about the system, said Michael Michaelis, the union’s top safety official.

One of the people involved in the training said MCAS was surprisingly powerful once tested in the simulator. Another person found the system controllable because it was expected. Before the Lion Air crash, Boeing and regulators agreed that pilots didn’t need to be alerted to the new system, and training was minimal.

At least some of the simulator flights happened on Saturday in Renton, Wash., where the 737 Max is built. Pilots from five airlines — American, United, Southwest, Copa and Fly Dubai — took turns testing how the Max would have responded with the software running as it was originally written, and with the updated version, known as 12.1.

In the simulations running the updated software, MCAS engaged, though less aggressively and persistently, and the pilots were also able to control the planes.

Boeing’s software update would require the system to rely on two sensors, rather than just one, and would not be triggered if the sensors disagreed by a certain amount, according to the three people. Given that the 737 Max has had both sensors already, many pilots and safety officials have questioned why the system was designed to rely on a single sensor, creating, in effect, one point of failure.

The update would also limit the system to engaging just once in most cases. And it would prevent the system from pushing the plane’s nose down more than a pilot could counteract by pulling up on the controls, the three people said.

In conversations with pilots and airline officials over the weekend, Boeing executives didn’t directly address why MCAS was designed with such flaws, one person with direct knowledge of the meetings said. Instead, the company stayed focused on the software update, the person said.

The software changes still require approval by the Federal Aviation Administration. Pilots’ unions have said they are comfortable with the proposed changes but want to review them before making a decision. Pilots will be required to complete a training on the updated system on their iPads.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/b...ion-error.html

Pikies who live in glass houses....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...backfires.html

I think no matter what boeing does the 737 max 8 and 9 are fcuked

this whole saga has brought to the forefront that they are inherently unstable aircraft

I wonder if they have tried gliding the fcuker in a simulator ?

Originally Posted by baldrick

I wonder if they have tried gliding the fcuker in a simulator ?

Allegedly at low altitudes (air density) and high speed - (once your in the dive the plane speeds up and is outside it's certified envelope). The control surfaces lock, due to structural overload, which means there is nothing the pilot can do to stop the dive of death.

They should really rip up the plans for the Max, bite the bullet and go to work on a new design.

Trouble is they have an order book of thousands of the fuckers.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Allegedly at low altitudes (air density) and high speed - (once your in the dive the plane speeds up and is outside it's certified envelope). The control surfaces lock, due to structural overload, which means there is nothing the pilot can do to stop the dive of death.

Not sure where you got that info from. The 737-3/4/5 series could be flown with both engines out from 30,000 ft without undue problems. Low altitude is not so easy unless you have enough speed to trade for altitude while you find somewhere to park.

^My apologies.

There are a series of very informative threads at this site:

http://https://leehamnews.com/


As both crashes happened directly after take-off, both planes were not at 30,000ft altitude. Hence didn't have the luxury of time or height.

The point being raised at the other site was during the discussion of the importance of the actuation screwbolt found at the crash site. Apparently if the bolt, which was found fully extended, what would be the consequences and what this screwbolt actually did.

It appears, to the commentators, the the screwbolt actuated a control flap. If the plane was flying at a low altitude this MCAS controlled mechanism altered the angle of the control flap. Once the plane exceeded a certain speed, as they both did when diving to the ground, the forces became too great and the screw pin locked into a position. Apparently to ensure the flaps were not overstressed and hence liable to break off. It appears that the mix of thicker air, at low altitudes, higher speeds due to the "normal procedure", as taught to other 737 type pilots at simulator training, of increasing power to the engines as a means of of preventing stalling the wing, made the situation worse. Coupled with MCAS taking control, a loop developed where more power produced more speed and a steepening angle of dive into the ground.

Whilst one of the pilots was trying to find any reference in the onboard paper manual.

Originally Posted by Troy

The 737-3/4/5 series could be flown with both engines out from 30,000 ft without undue problems.

I suspect most planes can fly in glide mode, with no engines at a high altitude and that your examples of 737-3/4/5 are not unusual, more a standard certification requirement for all planes, including the 737 MAX.

But the 737MAX has at least one difference, the brand new MCAS system, which apparently was deemed by Boeing and the FAA as:

1. not warranting a new 737 MAX certification,
2. not warranting additional pilot simulator training,
3. not warranting inclusion in the pilot training iPhone app,
4. not warranting an easily found section in the on-board emergency help manual.
5. not warranting any pilot 737 type certification.
6. not included in any new 737 type training even if only in the Ipad version some pilots took
7. not warranting mandatory dual sensors and relying on a single sensor to initiate what is now obvious, a deadly cycle of events. Unless of course customers handed over another $10,000/plane for the non mandatory second sensor. Which to be fair some airlines did.

All because both Boeing and the FAA took the view that the pilots would be unaware of MCAS's operations and hence didn't need to know about it. Decided by both organisations due to the necessity to retain existing Boeing customers and stop Airbus taking 320 orders, by lying in sales presentations, that pilot training, expensive, time consuming and a bottleneck in the plane's speed into revenue earning service, was not needed.

Hence a definable win/win/win for Boeing;

1. new sales customers,
2. excluding Airbus 320 sales
3. retaining core customers

and a"suggested" win/win for the airlines;

1. better, quicker entry of 737 MAX planes into their revenue generation schedule than the Airbus rival offering
2. reduced fuel expenses from their existing 737 fleet

As we see from Boeing's order book, it has 100s of billions of US$ in unbuilt and undelivered orders. Of which a substantial share of may have gone to Airbus 320 purchases originally, which are now shrinking and the airlines purchasing those 320's from Airbus as replacements.

^^ Apologies, I read your post in connection with Baldrick's about glide in a sim. Obviously, the lower and slower the plane, the harder it is to land safely. However, ignoring control malfunctions and MCAS for the moment, the RAT will ensure hydraulics are available to fly down to safe landing speeds. All level c and level d simulators allow training with all engines flamed out.

^Nae problemo.

Budget Icelandic WOW Airlines declares bankruptcy, strands passengers across the Atlantic


The sudden bankruptcy of WOW Airline occurred after a last-ditch attempt to raise equity failed.

Thousands of passengers on both sides of the Atlantic have been left stranded when Iceland's budget WOW airline suddenly declared bankruptcy and halted all operations after efforts to raise more funds failed.

Key points:

• Other airlines are offering special 'rescue' fares to passengers left stranded
• Last-minute talks to raise equity with a group of investors collapsed, forcing the airline to shut down
• Airline CEO said the decision was the "hardest thing I have ever done"

WOW, which focused on low-cost travel across the Atlantic, advised stranded travellers to seek flights with other airlines. It flew a total of 3.5 million passengers last year.


Search ABC wow-airlines-declares-bankrupcy2c-strands-passengers/10951658

Originally Posted by David48atTD

ABC wow-airlines-declares-bankrupcy2c-strands-passengers/10951658

dave , for the abc links - go to tinyurl.com and paste the ABC news link and get a tinyurl link to paste here

https://tinyurl.com/y6xf69dw

Who the fuck would fly across the Atlantic on an airline called WOW?

^wowsers ?

I see the families of the ethiopian airlines victims are suing boeing

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKCN1R92I1

(Reuters) - A lawsuit against Boeing Co was filed in U.S. federal court on Thursday in what appeared to be the first suit over a March 10 Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX crash that killed 157 people.

Originally Posted by baldrick

dave , for the abc links - go to tinyurl.com and paste the ABC news link and get a tinyurl link to paste here

https://tinyurl.com/y6xf69dw

Brilliant ...

Originally Posted by David48atTD

Airline CEO said the decision was the "hardest thing I have ever done"

One hopes handing over all his remuneration, "earned", during his "management stint", will only increase the pain.

Originally Posted by Dillinger

Who the fuck would fly across the Atlantic on an airline called WOW?

Well people fly Virgin don't they? I wouldn't fly an airline that doesn't go all the way.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Well people fly Virgin don't they? I wouldn't fly an airline that doesn't go all the way.

Yeah. Like their affiliate Virgin Galactic. They plan to fly people to 80km altitude and call that spaceflight.

Originally Posted by baldrick

dave , for the abc links - go to tinyurl.com and paste the ABC news link and get a tinyurl link to paste here

https://tinyurl.com/y6xf69dw

Cunning Baldrick, cunning.

I'd green you but apparently you've already been the benificiary of my largesse.

Originally Posted by John 12

Trump has been accused of murdering all those on Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302.

John 12

John 12 is the twelfth chapter of the Gospel of John in the New Testament of the Christian Bible.

It records the triumphal entry of Jesus Christ into Jerusalem.

Originally Posted by David48atTD

John 12 is the twelfth chapter of the Gospel of John

...it also refers to the customer situated half-way through a busy prostitute's evening...

^There are others?