That's pretty sanctimonious coming from the guy who fist pumped when planes crashed into The World Trade Center.Quote:
Originally Posted by mao say dung
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That's pretty sanctimonious coming from the guy who fist pumped when planes crashed into The World Trade Center.Quote:
Originally Posted by mao say dung
I don't get the big deal about that. According to my sense at the time, the US had been on an on-again off-again killing spree around the world for decades. 4 million Vietnamese died while a measly 54K crackers and their white betters died in the US rape of that country.
It was nice to see the big fucker get a bit of its own back. Sorry. But you kill people the way the US does, tax-payer supported and democratically backed by the people, and some folks are going to see justice when a few of the murderous complacent fuckers die.
Big deal.
in the meantime, in the real world, the treacherous English doing what they do best, spying for the account of others
sneaky little bastards, aren't they ?
BBC News - Ecuador asks UK for help on embassy bug
Cough, cough.Quote:
Originally Posted by mao say dung
Excuse me but where the FUCK do you get those figures from??
Let's see some statistics, you know this is TD, where we like you to back your shit up right?.
(or we'll get bettyboo to do it for you)
These figures were released by Hanoi in 1995, in the middle of the Doi Moi campaign, so no particular reason for them to be going after the US when they were going out of their way to join the world trading system.Quote:
The Agence France Presse (French Press Agency) news release of 4 April 1995 concerning Vietnamese Government's release of official figures of dead and wounded during the Vietnam War.
HANOI (AP) -April 4. Cinq millions de morts: 20 ans après la fin de la guerre du Vietnam, le gouvernement de Hanoi a révélé, lundi, le bilan d'un conflit dent le nombre de victimes avait été minore a l'époque pour ne pas affecter le moral de la population.
Selon Hanoi, il y a eu pres de deux millions de morts dans la population civile du Nord et deux autres millions dans celle du Sud. Quant aux combats proprement dits, les chiffres sent d'un million cent mille militaires tués et de 600.000 blessés en 21 ans de guerre.
Ce dernier bilan comprend a la fois les victimes de la guerilla vietcong et les soldats nord-vietamiens qui les épaulaient. Les précédentes estimations de source occidentale faisaient état d'un bilan de 666.000 morts parmi Ies combattants vietnamiens.
Note that these are figures for Vietnam. The Lao and Cambodian deaths are not included.
The men responsible for these deaths were aware that what they were doing was based in lies and horseshit, but they did it anyway.
This tendency for semiliterate Americans to go into 3rd world countries where women and children are living in huts and bomb the shit out of all and sundry with the most highly developed technology in the world is apparently part of the national character.
Calm down Sab :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
Nobody wants the Snowden Guy Sab, he is at best a tease Joker for the Chinese and the Russians to use in a situation where the enormous scale of their cyber-crimes is a serious international issue, Snowden helped them turn the attention away from those crimes who are in fact one very important reason as to why the cyber self-defence has been ramped up significantly by the Western world.
You can always have a snigger and enjoy how the Chinese and Russian state crooks with Snowdens help, hilariously managed to turn that one around in the world eye of cheap sensation driven news, and thus the public opinion with the dumbed down reality tv munching masses.
But it is an ill advised joy for the sniggering (even possibly unemployed for the very same reasons) idiots, because it costs our countries and us as individuals billions upon billions in lost revenues, increased cost's, stolen and copied intellectual property, and many hundred of thousands of jobs.
Anyway to most other nations from the sane world Snowdene is just a potential big embarrassment and a possible very expensive liability.
And clearly a criminal + very costly traitor to his home Country, no matter the sympathy some can have as to the the content of his leaks.
In Europe the reactions is nothing more than the necessary public Political sabre rattling needed to satisfy the indignant clueless masses. And a chance for relatively unknown political loon-fringe members of the European parliament to show their colours in empty gestures.
27/28 member states will never be able to agree on a common stance on this one, individually they have own national interests that differ greatly, and most undoubtedly have other stuff too they don't want to risk getting exposed.
The coming US - EU trade negotiations is far to economically important for both parties to let this Snowden affair end up having any real impact on the outcome, but of-cause the EU will milk it a bit.
There are no friendly states in the intelligence vocabulary, only different levels of necessary sharing, every European secret service are doing the dirty to each other in proportionate scale of economics and ability, and once the Political heads of state have had briefings in their respective intelligence oversight groups, and been told to for God's sake be careful!!, they will all pull their heads in not wanting to force any exposure of their own activities by pressurising US to much in these matters.
Do you really for one second think that the French, the Germans and the English etc. is not spying on each-other as much as possible, they are deeply divided in the EU, and a hell of a lot is at stake, in fact you as a citizen of any sovereign nation, might rightfully claim your Government would be incredibly incompetent if they where not gathering as much foreign state intelligence as possible, and by whatever clandestine means available.
The ones shouting the most in press and blogs right now are your typical agenda driven (hostile foreign state, and political adversaries) spin doctor machinery + the always faithful anti US knee-jerk nutters, and underdog lover wankers with perpetual wet David and Goliath dreams.
This crap ^ will sell newspapers and feed Journalists for a while and then go away quietly with time as things of this nature usually do.
And Snowden.... well the remainder of his life is well and truly fvucked, and in the end has been wasted for nothing.
:chitown: :)
Calm down, huh. So I take it you think that it is acceptable for the 'security state' to lie to it's political masters larv, and thus deliberately mislead the American public? I disagree entirely, I think it is a very dangerous situation indeed in a democracy and entirely unacceptable. More to the point, when and where it arises it should be stamped out vigorously. I'm surprised with the apparent complacency in the US about this scandal actually, although I'm not the least surprised by the general media angle to put all the heat on Snowden- and ask literally none of the serious questions raised by his revelations.
As you know I was once a naval officer, in a democracy called orrstralia. One of the early things we were taught was the 'chain of command', and it left one in no doubt as to the supremacy of the civilian government over the military and security state structure. My 'top boss' (many levels up) was the Head of the Navy- he in turn reported to the Chief of Defence forces- but he, Australia's top military man, reported to the Under Secretary of Defence (to us, a lowly public servant), and thus up through Defence Secretary, to the Minister of Defence to the Cabinet, and Prime Minister. A bit humbling, I remember thinking at the time. But of course, all one needs is a cursory knowledge of history to realise why this is the case. Civilian/ governmental oversight of the military & security apparatus is essential in a democracy, I would go so far as to call it existential. So, if I were now a senior naval officer and became aware that my military superiors had been repeatedly and systematically misleading Parliament and the Australian people, I would be faced with a similar moral dilemna to Edward Snowden.
Incidentally, this is nothing new. Ike warned about it in 1961-
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.Dwight D. Eisenhower
Fast forward a few years, and we had the Iran Contra scandal- when we found the CIA, had been smuggling drugs in industriial quantities, illegally selling arms to Iran and arming the El Salvadorean Contras/ terrorists, and various other nasties- all without civilian/ governmental oversight, never mind the knowledge of the public. Ike's warning was, and remains, very real.
So perhaps an individual person might hate Snowden, as a 'Traitor', worse than the Boston bombers or some lurid serial killer. Or perhaps, he may think of him as a 'Patriot', exposing abuse of power. It is irrelevant frankly- what is important is that, yet again, civilian oversight of the security state structure has been compromised in the US, James Clapper (director of national intelligence) and minions have repeatedly lied to Congress and thus the US public about the true scope of NSA'a activities. As Glenn Greenwald of the Guardian (also aghast at the public complacency) has shown, this has happened on a number of occasions, it is not a one-off.
It also comes at a time when a number of other trends in the US give cause for concern- increasing concentration of power with Potus, increasing government secrecy and whistleblower paranoia, Congress a dysfunctional mess, the DoHS arming & equipping itself against popular insurrection (like, what do detention camps have to do with the 'war on terror') a massive surveillance regime, both internal and external, and an overall financial scenario where well funded centres of power increasingly dominate the political process, at the expense of the people that the politicians in Congress supposedly work for. As written in the Constitution.
So no, I don't think that Edward Snowden should be on his way to Venezuela or any other place- he should be on his way back to the USA, to appear before Congress. Congress and the US people need to reassert their authority- because it is they that supposedly have the ultimate authority in a democracy, and the 'security state' or 'MI complex', call it what you will, has been abusing the authority entrusted them. This is not something to be complacent about, and frankly what happens to Snowden is not the important thing here- if he is to be granted full immunity so he can freely speak his piece (and inform the US public & Congress at least some of what has been going on, nominally in their name) so be it. He is not important, but his revelations are. And I would rather have eddy baby blabbing to US Congress, than Vladimir. The EU leaks have at some level, damaged Nato- if only the trust aspect. European governments did not, until recently, think of Nato as an American trojan horse.
The opposing Pov's just do not hold water imo. It's either "we're doing this to protect you sheeple, honestly guv" (ie, trust me- I'm a snake), or "we face existential threats' (nonsense) or "go live in Russia then, snigger". Actually the emerging, and concerning, statism in the US increasingly resembles Russia, and I doubt they snoop as much on their own people and allies as does the US.
Snowdon is a distraction. Nothing more or less.
Yesterdays news...:chitown:
Yes, he is- and that is why the msm is focusing on him. His leaks or revelations however are anything but.
^That is only partially true. All these whistle-blowers and their enablers, journalists like Greenwald, and organizations like WikiLeaks, raise the very pertinent question of what makes for a good citizen, a responsible adult, a politically mature individual.
People like larvae, who consider craven support of whoever holds the gun in whatever situation as "maturity", are in fact eunuchs in support of a form of tyranny.
Snowden isn't.
That is part of the reason so much is being made of "him". He is like a mirror for drones to look into and see what passive assholes they have become.
Good you mention the great country (I really mean that) Australia Sab, as you hopefully know they are a key member and part founder of all that cyber intelligence gathering, I have posted some of that history elsewhere, but here is a quote -Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
"The beginning was - 1943 with the entirely sensible and smart BRUSA world war two agreement on cooperation in intelligence matters, expanded in 1946-48 to become UKUSA an electronic intelligence gathering pact between Australia, Canada, New Zealand, United Kingdom and United States also called the Five eyes agreement this again expanded into the popular named ECHELON wich was created in the 1960's, ever since the US and it's partners in ECHELON have intercepted phone-calls and all other forms of electronic communication (nothing to do with Bush or Obama!!!), they have adapted and hugely expanded on the run with the emergence of new technology (internet-email etc), and expanded this intelligence gathering cooporation with several more Nations than the ones from the original agreement.
There is electronic intelligence gathering stations placed all over the world in this network. Menwith hill England, Pine Gap and Geralton Australia, Misawa Japan, Waihopai New Zealand, Leitrim Canada, Fort George Meade USA, etc. etc."
https://teakdoor.com/2475853-post124.html
So I wonder how much your chain of Democratic command back there has lied to the Australians? since they are integral part of the listening stations/network intercepting those phone-calls and emails etc. and getting shared info from it all as a first class member of the "five eyes", key Politicians are informed both in Australia and in the US, but not every Tom Dick and Harry in the respective democratic Senate/Parliaments as it should be, impossible to keep clandestine if it where otherwise.
The facts are that in most other Western nations the "democratic safeguards" are less than in the US, and that is being utilised by our respective Governments, but most people don't know and frankly wouldn't care if they did.
That the French, Hollande (at home) and their interior minister Manuel Valls (at the 4 of july US embassy garden party) with their usual Latin flair for being stupidly and exuberantly dramatic, and talking before their brains have had time to catch up is nothing new, but they as usual end up with their own feet solidly stuck in their mouths and the laughing stock of the political world - BBC News - France 'has vast data surveillance' - Le Monde report :rofl:
And in good old England they are not resting idly on their Chesterfield leather couches either - BBC News - Ecuador asks UK for help on embassy bug :)
The more there will be pushed the more little secret nasty's will trickle out of the respective Nations cub-bards, and no one wants that.
The bloodthirsty Dung heap above ^ fanatically forgets that we are in fact part of Democracy's in our part of the world, and whether he or I individually like it, - it is our elected officials that on our behalf is doing their job on the back of the majority mandate we have given them, if we are not happy it is up to us to oust them and elect new ones, that is how it works!, and it is infinitely better than totalitarian shitholes like Russia and China.
But this issue is not going to do it anywhere, the upset are to few and far between, the rest knows that it is a dirty but necessary part of Government.
:chitown: :)
Need you? :mid: Truth be told, 'what goes on' in them is not subject in any way to Australian Parliamentary oversight. They are, effectively, US territory. Australia willingly cedes sovereignty in this regard- it considers itself a major beneficiary of the security alliance, and being an important link in the web only means more security to us. So we, in particular, hope that the US government remains friends, and upholds the same causes we do.Quote:
Originally Posted by larvidchr
Yes, indeed. When the US elected Obama they expected what they got.Quote:
Originally Posted by larvidchr
Stupidity worn as a cloak doesn't make you smart.
The man promised changes to foreign policy which he has extended and fortified instead, and the man talked about the trade-off between security and liberty and has gone in the opposite direction on that as well.
American democracy at work.
People who sniff at 4 million dead civilians and call it justified because commies wear pink have no business calling anyone "bloodthirsty". Hypocrisy at that level just screams "scumbag!"
What elected Obama was a combination of Liberal White Guilt heavily tinged with Low Information Voter Syndrome...:mid:
what elected obama was the republican party.
Are there any phone apps along the lines of Skype that have heavy encryption allowing secure comms?
Not that any us based company could distribute as encryption is classed as a weapon for export purposes.
Why is that?
Why shouldn't people have the means to communicate in private?
You do have the right Necron99, but you just never know when someone else might be listening. Its called a telephone and the Internet FFS, you want privacy, don't communicate on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Necron99
^ that right didnt extend to the Equadorian Ambassador apparently.
Necron, you can anonymously communicate via Tor (“the underground internet”). If you’re not familiar with it, you can read about it at Wikipedia. The application is easy to download…even to a flash drive should you wish. Completely private. I remember a while back that they were working on a similar system for smartphones (rather than only computers) but I don’t know if this has happened yet.
^ Hmmmmm...originally supported by the US Navy Reseach laboratory and currently partly funded by the US State Department....
I think I would pass.
Reasearch it - you'll find it's authority proof.
Is this supposed to be a joke? America is a totalitarian shithole with two parties that are in effect not any better for democracy than one-party states.Quote:
Originally Posted by larvidchr
with larv, it's always a joke, he is a complete right wing nutter, much worse than Boon in my opinion, he is the typical European fascistQuote:
Originally Posted by Rainfall
I am surprised that the retardicans are not jumping on this to embarrass Obama and that NSA director and go straight to the throat with that scandal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boon Mee
for once, they have the smoking gun and more ammo to kill Obama, and what do they do ? turn around and pretend it didn't happen,
sounds like this is the the smoking gun that retardicans are frauds and whining old men with no balls, and just jealous of Obama.
Obama could be impeached for treason for that little episode, but instead they are all covering their asses because they are all traitors to the US constitution and they know it.
Obama's lost mucho-face with Morisi going down. His plate is full.Quote:
Originally Posted by ButterflyI am surprised that the retardicans are not jumping on this to embarrass Obama and that NSA director and go straight to the throat with that scandal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boon Mee
for once, they have the smoking gun and more ammo to kill Obama, and what do they do ? turn around and pretend it didn't happen,
sounds like this is the the smoking gun that retardicans are frauds and whining old men with no balls, and just jealous of Obama.
Obama could be impeached for treason for that little episode, but instead they are all covering their asses because they are all traitors to the US constitution and they know it.