Should Osama bin Laden have been taken dead or alive?

[TizMe]

HUMAN rights lawyer Geoffrey Robertson says Osama bin Laden should have been brought to trial but military lawyer Mike Kelly says the US were right to kill him.

THE CASE FOR OSAMA BEING TAKEN ALIVE BY GEOFFREY ROBERTSON QC

The killing of Osama bin Laden was a perversion of justice that has effectively given the terrorist mastermind what he craved.

Bin Laden should have been captured and brought to trial because his death made him look like a martyr.

The way to demystify this man is not to kill him and have the iconic picture of his body.

The way to demystify him, rather than to these soulful pictures of the tall man on the mountain, is to put him on trial, to see him as a hateful and hate-filled old man screaming from the dock or lying in the witness box. That way the true inhumanity of the man is exposed.

It's not justice. It's a perversion of the term. Justice means taking someone to court, finding them guilty upon evidence and sentencing them.

This man has been subject to summary execution, and what is now appearing after a good deal of disinformation from the White House is it may well have been a cold-blooded assassination.

The last thing he wanted was to be put on trial, to be convicted and to end his life in a prison farm in upstate New York.

What he wanted was exactly what he got - to be shot in mid-jihad and get a fast track to paradise and the Americans have given him that.

It's an irony that it's a win-win situation for both Osama and Obama. The latter gets re-elected as president and the former gets his fast track to paradise.

* This is an edited transcript of an interview on ABC Radio 702

* Geoffrey Robertson is a London based QC and human rights lawyer.

THE CASE FOR KILLING OSAMA BIN LADEN BY DR MIKE KELLY MP

All discussion about the merits or otherwise of Osama Bin Laden facing trial are entirely irrelevant and pointless.

Bin Laden was the Commander of an organisation that was at war with not only the US but anyone else who did not subscribe to his particular brand of extreme Islam and he was therefore a legitimate target.

For all the families of the victims of his merciless acts of terror his death can represent some degree of justice and closure, although it will not bring back their loved ones.

It is also a signal to like-minded minions of bin Laden that we are not about to roll over and accept being victims and that we will relentlessly hunt them down, reinforcing us in our resolve.

From the practical aspect of fighting Islamist extremism the success of this mission may have three significant outcomes;

* It will be a blow to the morale of his followers and will serve as an important contribution to our public information campaign

* His ability to avoid capture had embarrassed the Coalition and reinforced his status

* It proves that Pakistan is not a safe haven

Importantly bin Laden's death will also severely degrade al-Qaeda's fundraising efforts.

This successful operation does not signal the end of our struggle against terrorism or our commitment in Afghanistan and we will need to steel ourselves against a possible response from his remaining followers.

I have just returned from seeing the work of our men and women in Afghanistan and we can be proud of the progress they are achieving.

The death of Osama bin Laden places a full stop on the narrative that his life was pointless, futile, brutally sadistic and contributed nothing to the standing of Islam.

* Mike Kelly is the ALP Member for Eden-Monaro and a former Army Colonel and military lawyer who served in Somalia, Bosnia, Croatia, Kenya and East Timor and was director of army legal services.

[CB79]

Alive but tell everyone he's dead.

Then torture him for a few months maybe years using various implements before feeding him to the rats.

[dirtydog]

His ability to avoid capture had embarrassed the Coalition and reinforced his status

It just goes to show how shite USA inteliigence is, they thought he was living in a cave for the last 10 years.

[dirtydog]

Alive but tell everyone he's dead.

They could have taken him alive and just not told anyone about it, they aren't under any obligation to tell us the commoners what crimes they are committing.

[Loy Toy]

On one hand I would have liked to have seen him put on trial and I feel the decision to waste him immediately was wrong and has given him and his followers exactly what he wanted.

Then again if I had had a close relative or friend taken from me by him I would hate to think that millions of dollars of American taxpayers cash would be spent guarding, feeding and then putting him on trial.

Tough one......................

[DrAndy]

only tough if you think you have the right to take someone elses life

otherwise, quite straightforward

[somtamslap]

It is also a signal to like-minded minions of bin Laden that we are not about to roll over and accept being victims and that we will relentlessly hunt them down, reinforcing us in our resolve.

Using that logic, any like-minded persons have got ten years grace..makes no odds really...

[Loy Toy]

only tough if you think you have the right to take someone elses life

Well bin laden obviously thought he did although it hasn't been proven that he took a life by his own hand. A bit of a Charles Manson type of dilemma.

Apart from that Doc, quite straightforward.

[larvidchr]

only tough if you think you have the right to take someone elses life

otherwise, quite straightforward

You don't! but representatives of Governments sometimes have to do so to save more lifes, and that is the question in this thread doc.

[DrAndy]

^ I am not sure shooting an unarmed man actually saved more lives; the opposite may turn out to be true

if you have a reason for believing that it did, let us know

[blue]

Was right to shoot him ,now the Muslims know that not all westerners arelimp wristed poofters

[CaptainNemo]

Alive but tell everyone he's dead.

Then torture him for a few months maybe years using various implements before feeding him to the rats.

The concept of "Rights" is meaningless. There are rules: laws; taboos; customs; moral codes, whatever; but there are no "Rights"; no "good" or "evil". People are destroyed because the system of behaviour they attempt to establish is competition with the established system: one of the systems must win.

[larvidchr]

^ I am not sure shooting an unarmed man actually saved more lives; the opposite may turn out to be true

if you have a reason for believing that it did, let us know

They did not know that for sure till after he was dead doc, or maybe you know better?

And yes I do have reason to believe that IMO, most political/terror expert commentators seems to agree that Al Qaeda's capabilities have been greatly diminished by taking out so many of it's leaders and keeping up the pressure, I think it is unlikely that they can continue killing as many as they have done with the present climate and changes going on in the Muslim world, and also judged on the reactions to Osamas death so far, there is good reason for guarded optimism, it is not over but just a bit better.

[Loy Toy]

Was Bush more lenient with Saddam or did he just want to publsh this famous quote.........."We got him".

[bobo746]

the Muslims know that not all westerners arelimp wristed poofters

Go for gold blue mussies and poofs in the same sentence.

[Butterfly]

Bin Laden should have been captured and brought to trial because his death made him look like a martyr.

what make you think they didn't want him to be a martyr ? what make you think they wanted to dehumanize him ? I think the US government needs the OBL legend as much as the enemies to continue their silly little war.

His killing was a calculated provocation, a bit like a "Bring them on" ala GW Bush

[Boon Mee]

only tough if you think you have the right to take someone elses life

otherwise, quite straightforward

Well, since OBL was responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent (operative word here = innocent) he was, by all rights, capped on the spot.

[Dan]

Other than satisfying the desire for straightforward, bloody revenge (which these days goes under the rather misleading labels of 'justice and closure'), I'm not sure that any of Dr (?) Mike Kelly's points don't also apply to capturing Osama alive, having a trial and then killing him (with at least some effort at legality and all the benefits which come from that).

[nidhogg]

There seem to be two issues here, both of which I am rather uncomfortable with.

1. The American president apparently now has the absolute right to decide who lives or dies. This was an assassination, pure and simple, in the apparent absence of any form of judicial process or oversight. As westerners we (generally) believe in the judicial process. The nazi war leaders etc were not simply taken out and shot, they were tried and executed after a legal process. Thats all gone now.

(As a slight aside, I thoght that there was actually a provision in place many years ago that the American president was NOT allowed to order the assassination of individuals. Clearly that is no longer the case).

2. This assassination took place in an independent sovereign state. Apparently it is OK for Americans to order armed death squads into any country they want now a days. I get the feel that it makes no difference that this was Pakistan, and that the Americans would have quite happily tried the same in any other country of the world. For my part, and this is not really an anti-American comment, I would really hope that if they tried this on in my country, that the death squad would be gunned down on sight.

Frankly, Americans might feel they have the right to send armed death squads where ever they want, but last I checked, there was no Pax Americana in place.

[Butterfly]

It's Pakistan, it's a shithole, Americans have a god given right to intervene in shit holes and shoot who they want

[fiddler]

I'm a bit surprised to see no one commenting that maybe they didn't want him to talk.

[Butterfly]

I'm a bit surprised to see no one commenting that maybe they didn't want him to talk

I think it's a given, throwing the body into the sea is a bit too convenient for everyone involved

[fiddler]

I'm a bit surprised to see no one commenting that maybe they didn't want him to talk

I think it's a given, throwing the body into the sea is a bit too convenient for everyone involved

No, I didn't mean disposal of the body, I mean not taking him alive.
(I believe they could have if they wanted to)

[nidhogg]

It's Pakistan, it's a shithole, Americans have a god given right to intervene in shit holes and shoot who they want

I am sure that when the american death squads roam the streets of paris, they will be glad to know they have your unqualified support.

[Rigger]

to be shot in mid-jihad and get a fast track to paradise and the Americans have given him that.

Some how I dont think he got his fast track to paradise written by a retard for retards.