Thread: New Zealanders presented with 40 flag options to vote for new national standard

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

Poor old Ant, the perpetual boy trapped in a man's body squirming his petty minded, priggish way through life desperate to conceal his failings at all cost.

Quite sad really.

So this is the stage where you just start to shift the posts and try to obfuscate because you were wrong.

You're predictable, sausages.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

Folk will doubtless note the priggish ANTipodean has signally failed to acknowledge he was talking bollox. No surprise there then.

And what, exactly, was I talking bollocks about, sausageboy?

What I said was factually accurate for anyone who cares to check it: the Moriori as pre-Maori settlers of NZ is a myth. They are in fact a hapu/sub-tribe of Maori.

A persistent myth granted, it was first discredited as early as the 1930's, but a myth all the same.

Rubbish
Read the article again.

Waitaha, another pre-Maori tribe, also recognized by NZ government.


Te Ara a Hei
Pursuant to section 50(1)(a) of the Waitaha Claims Settlement Act 2013, the Minister of Conservation hereby notifies that the area described in the Schedule hereto has been declared to be subject to an overlay classification known as Te Whakairinga Kōrero by section 42 of the Act.

The provisions of the Act which relate to Te Whakairinga Kōrero are sections 41–60.

Pursuant to section 50(1)(b) of the Act, the Minister hereby notifies that the following protection principles are directed at the Minister of Conservation avoiding harm to, or diminishing of the values of Waitaha and Ngā Tikanga o Waitaha in relation to Te Ara a Hei:

Protection of wāhi tapu, indigenous flora and fauna, and the wider environment on Te Ara a Hei;
protection and recognition of the mauri of Te Ara a Hei;
recognition of the mana, traditions and tikanga of Waitaha on Te Ara a Hei;
respect for the mana, traditions and tikanga of Waitaha on Te Ara a Hei;
encouragement of the respect for the association of Waitaha with Te Ara a Hei;
accurate portrayal of the association of Waitaha with Te Ara a Hei; and
recognition of the relationship of Waitaha with the Waitaha wāhi tapu and wāhi whakahirahira of Te Ara a Hei.

https://gazette.govt.nz/notice/id/2015-ln6351
https://gazette.govt.nz/notice/id/2015-ln6351

Originally Posted by ENT

Read the article again.

Goodo.

From the article you posted yourself:

Originally Posted by ENT

...

Generations of New Zealanders have grown up believing Moriori were an inferior, pre-Maori race driven from New Zealand to seek refuge in the Chatham Islands.

[...]

The mythological history was perpetuated by the School Journal, a magazine-style series used in all New Zealand primary schools....

So like I said, it's a myth.

The Moriori are not a seperate race nor a pre-Maori people. They are in fact Maori.

Next.

Waitaha Claims Settlement Bill

On Thursday 6th June 2013, the Waitaha Claims Settlement Bill passed its third reading in Parliament.

Given this was such a momentous occasion, as many of our kaumatua, pakeke, rangatahi and tamariki as were able, travelled to Wellington to witness the historic moment.

All speakers from the various political parties fully supported our Bill and on 12th June 2013, it became law. As a result, most of the settlement assets have now been transferred to Te Kapu o Waitaha, on behalf of Waitaha.
Waitaha Claims Settlement

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

The Moriori are not a seperate race nor a pre-Maori people. They are in fact Maori.

Tell that to Waitaha Moriori,......to their face.

Originally Posted by ENT

Read the article again.

Goodo.

From the article you posted yourself:

Originally Posted by ENT

...

Generations of New Zealanders have grown up believing Moriori were an inferior, pre-Maori race driven from New Zealand to seek refuge in the Chatham Islands.

[...]

The mythological history was perpetuated by the School Journal, a magazine-style series used in all New Zealand primary schools....

So like I said, it's a myth.

The Moriori are not a seperate race nor a pre-Maori people. They are in fact Maori.

Next.

... *Crickets chirping*

Originally Posted by ENT

Waitaha Claims Settlement Bill

On Thursday 6th June 2013, the Waitaha Claims Settlement Bill passed its third reading in Parliament.

Given this was such a momentous occasion, as many of our kaumatua, pakeke, rangatahi and tamariki as were able, travelled to Wellington to witness the historic moment.

All speakers from the various political parties fully supported our Bill and on 12th June 2013, it became law. As a result, most of the settlement assets have now been transferred to Te Kapu o Waitaha, on behalf of Waitaha.
Waitaha Claims Settlement

Also incorrect. Apparently you didn't bother reading either the article you posted or the Waitaha Claims Settlement Bill (which is a part of the Treaty of Waitangi, not seperate and distinct, it even cites).

Waitaha are a hapu of Ngai Tahu - i.e. also Maori.

That gazette announcement and Act don't say anything even remotely close to what you think they do. The Act even defines who qualifies under it as "Waitaha" and there's nothing about them being pre-Maori settlers.

It's commonsensical really: not only were their no pre-Maori settlers but even if there had been why would they be included under the auspices of the Treaty that is between the Crown and Maori. Not pre-Maori, not non-Maori, but Maori.

So it makes no sense at all. That would be like a man trying to claim maternity leave.

It seems to me that your confusion lies in your apparent lack of knowledge about the inter-relationship between iwi and hapu and once again showing that a little Googled knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Originally Posted by ENT

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

The Moriori are not a seperate race nor a pre-Maori people. They are in fact Maori.

Tell that to Waitaha Moriori,......to their face.

Why would I need to do that.

I'm telling you... Well, actually I'm pointing out to you that the article you posted because you thought it refuted my point actually supports it.

Plus of course there's no such people as "Waitaha Moriori". That's a portmanteau of two seperate and distinct hapu that you've just gone and made up. Congrats ENT, you've just invented a new people.

C'mon ENT don't pull a seekingass here... You're wrong, man up and admit it.

I know you're capable of it because I've seen you do it before. Googling up cut 'n pastes that refute your own point is just digging the hole deeper. Don't be like sausageboy.

Sorry chappy, Waitaha/Moriori don't eat out of Ngai Tahu troughs no more, they got better kai.

They never were Ngai Tahu until forcibly incorporated through the treaty signing system, their names being included under them by Nga Pui/Ngai Tahu, stealing their mana.

There's no Waitaha phakapapa going back to Nga Pui/Ngai Tahu until they got murdered and raped in the 1800s by Nga Pui.

Now you're just shifting the posts and going off on a tangent and into irrelevancies.

Meh, I tried. What do I really care if you or anyone else is determined to believe something that's patently not true and easily shown to be false.

You're so wrong that even your own links and cut 'n pastes prove that you're wrong. Anybody else with any interest in the truth of the matter can just look at the links that you yourself have posted and see the actual facts.

Sausageboy, xanax et. al. will still back you purely on the basis that they want me to be wrong but that's also their problem - not too mention really, really, really pathetic and stoopid.

Originally Posted by kingwilly

You missed an opportunity here kiwis.....

You're right there KW.

Still, I got my patch of Laser Kiwi on TradeMe for $8 and wear it proudly on my backpack.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Now you're just shifting the posts and going off on a tangent and into irrelevancies.

Meh, I tried. What do I really care if you or anyone else is determined to believe something that's patently not true and easily shown to be false.

You're so wrong that even your own links and cut 'n pastes prove that you're wrong. Anybody else with any interest in the truth of the matter can just look at the links that you yourself have posted and see the actual facts.

Sausageboy, xanax et. al. will still back you purely on the basis that they want me to be wrong but that's also their problem - not too mention really, really, really pathetic and stoopid.

Not at all.
There's nothing in what I've posted that comes anywhere near your claims that Waitaha/Moriori are a hapu of Ngai Tahu or of Nga Pui.

That was Nga Pui's claim in order to take away all Waitaha and Moriori lands and rights under the treaty.

Originally Posted by ENT

your claims that Waitaha/Moriori are a hapu of Ngai Tahu or of Nga Pui.

Waitaha are a hapu of Ngai Tahu, an easily verifiable fact; the only thing I've posted about Moriori is what I have maintained from the start - that's it's a myth they were pre-Maori settlers, a fact proven by your own post and one that you're now studiously ignoring and trying to obfuscate and shift the posts from with all this new irrelevant babble; and I haven't posted a single word about Nga Pui - a tribe located in Northland and with precisely nothing to do with anything that has been posted to this point.

So now you're just making shit up and lying. All because you can't admit you were wrong and mistake Google cut 'n pasting for actual knowledge.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by ENT

your claims that Waitaha/Moriori are a hapu of Ngai Tahu or of Nga Pui.

a)Waitaha are a hapu of Ngai Tahu, an easily verifiable fact;

b) it's a myth they were pre-Maori settlers, a fact proven by your own post..

a)Not according to Waitaha, so verify your claim (and not what's written into the Treaty of Waitangi on behalf of Wataha and Moriori).
Ngai Tahu were only
b) Where in my post is that said?


Ngāi Tahu and Waitaha
The claim to the land

For Ngāi Tahu, conquest had never been a preferred means of claiming territory.

During the early period of occupying and settling the South Island, besides deliberately marrying into the earliest resident tribes such as Waitaha, Ngāi Tahu also learned the traditions and customs of these tribes.

Among Māori the real basis to any claim on the land was genealogy – the blood ties that go back through the generations.

It had been Waitaha who, in tribal traditions, imposed their genealogy on the land.

Having secured Kaiapoi pā, settled the Canterbury–Banks Peninsula region, and begun to extend to the south and west, Ngāi Tahu acquired the tribal belief system of Waitaha.
4. ? Ng?i Tahu ? Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand


As the article above points out, Nai Tahu were latter day arrivals to Waitaha, with a separate genealogy /whakapapa.

So nether Waitaha nor Moriori are a hapu or sub tribe of Nai Tahu, who arrived on the South Island after Waitaha, as indicated.

I don't care if you're wrong ENT, it's no skin off my nose, but lying, obfuscating, being disingenuous and moving the goalposts whilst off on one of your trips to irrelevant tangents land is just dumb.

My original point stands: Moriori were not pre-Maori settlers of NZ.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

I don't care if you're wrong ENT, it's no skin off my nose, but lying, obfuscating, being disingenuous and moving the goalposts whilst off on one of your trips to irrelevant tangents land is just dumb.

My original point stands: Moriori were not pre-Maori settlers of NZ.

I'm not wrong chappy, neither have I shifted the goalposts etc as you think.

My quotes re. Waitaha/Moriori are from verifiable and reliable sources.

Keep digging, ENT.

The Kiwi T is available for anybody who was disappointed by its failure to make the cut for the referendum.

NZ FLAG: FIRE THE LAZAR! MENS BLACK T-SHIRT | Mr Vintage T-Shirts, Apparel & Gifts



Personally I think it could have snuck over the line if it had been an open ballot on all the options.

Jesus was there ever a bigger argumentative girlie than our Ant?, looks like he does not even know his own history.

Ant's version of NZ Maori history is the politically sanitized version, where any references to pre-Maori has been removed, making it easier for the dominant tribes of Aotearoa to lay claim to all that belonged to other sub-tribes or hapus that had been dominated, including their oral history and whakapapa, which is also regarded as taonga (treasure).

The real history of pre-Maori NZ is yet to be told, officially, although you can read about it by searching for 'pre-Maori NZ', just google, there are several researchers and authors on the subject.

Change the flag by losing the union Jack and NZ will start on the road to becoming a republic. Once a republic, that'll be the end of the Maori cash-cow, the Treaty of Waitangi, then no amount of sanitizing the books will help advance Maori, the opposite will become true as Maori will start to claim back the suppressed history of the land,....a mighty story.

Originally Posted by ENT

Ant's version of NZ Maori history is the politically sanitized version, where any references to pre-Maori has been removed, making it easier for the dominant tribes of Aotearoa to lay claim to all that belonged to other sub-tribes or hapus that had been dominated, including their oral history and whakapapa, which is also regarded as taonga (treasure).

The real history of pre-Maori NZ is yet to be told, officially, although you can read about it by searching for 'pre-Maori NZ', just google, there are several researchers and authors on the subject.

Indeed there is - and astounding research and theories as to the "groups" that had explored and even settled [long-term or short] in NZ prior and during the early Maori start.

An item above in your first paragraph: [sic] history....politically sanitized version should certainly be paid careful attention to, as that's largely how we acquire our historiographical perspective - and almost always bias, false, manipulated, and omitted. Most don't wish to imbibe real events, happenings, and history as it was.....comfortable with the pablum that is forced fed and repeated ad nauseam - making BS to be true and real.

I don't dare take side between ENT and Ant, both obviously have researched extensively...

I just think sometimes we read an article by an historian - and cling to that as the gospel truth. We believe what we want to believe, in other words...

However, the main body of evidence suggests Moriori (and/or) other people were in NZ well before the Maori.

Proof of Pre Maori




MAORI RADIO CARBON DATING
Radio Carbon dating of early skeleton remains found in New Zealand proves there were people living in New Zealand long before the Maori. While these pre-Maori people have disappeared, there is evidence throughout New Zealand of their existence in their skeleton remains, dwellings, vegetables, plants, trees, animals and birds.
Further information can be found on Ancient Celtic New Zealand
DWELLINGS
There are many remains of stone buildings, dwellings, structures and archaeology sites located throughout New Zealand that shows there were people living in New Zealand long before the Maori. While many of these have been destroyed over the years and the Government has restricted areas where these stone structures and dwellings are located, Martin Doutré has researched and documented many of these, which can be found on Ancient Celtic New Zealand.


Source Proof of Pre Maori | One New Zealand Foundation Inc.

Originally Posted by ENT

Ant's version of NZ Maori history

Yeah that's the thing though, it's not my version it's the objective and factual truth.

You're the one trying to spin an alternate reality and yet your own cut 'n pastes and links negate what you're saying. How dumb is that.

Sausageboy, xanax et. al. will still back you purely on the basis that they want me to be wrong but that's also their problem - not too mention really, really, really pathetic and stoopid.

Q.E.D.

Originally Posted by Dragonfly94

Jesus was there ever a bigger argumentative girlie than our Ant?, looks like he does not even know his own history.

Originally Posted by NZdick1983

However, the main body of evidence suggests Moriori (and/or) other people were in NZ well before the Maori.

It doesn't though.

And as to your link / 'proof' you may want to check your source on that one. Suffice to say that One New Zealand Foundation Inc. have what you might call a certain vested interest and agenda.