Thread: House speaker recommends fast-track charter rewrite

Originally Posted by SteveCM

"....charter revision is clearly a long-haul and complex process..."

But an extremely important and neccesary one to be dealt with urgently.

Why?........So that this Govt. can function in response to an electoral mandate, and not be constrained from doing so by a Constitution crafted by military and Amart strategists to prevent them from doing so.

Those constitutional strings linked to significant elements of the Amart must be severed. In its present form, the dominant element of the Amart in effect exercise governing power instead of the elected authorities.

This must be negated for Democracy to function as it should.

Originally Posted by BKKBoet

Wow. So the 2007 charter was endorsed by a democratic referendum of the people, now the new government wants to force through constitutional changes without consultation after only a few weeks in office. Time for the Red Shirts to hit the streets again. Oh. sorry I forgot they don't have any money.

Geez, a public referendum 'too troublesome'. for WHO may I ask?

it really sounds like this government is going to be short lived and they know it

rushing through reforms faster than they can go is only going to accelerate their fall

but Thaksin being a raging pitbull, couldn't care less what the costs are

Bangkok Post : Abhisit: Don

Abhisit: Don’t rush for charter change

• Published: 23/08/2011 at 02:44 PM
• Online news:

The planned constitutional amendments is not an urgent matter for the Pheu Thai-led coalition government to rush for, acting Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said at parliament on Tuesday.

Mr Abhisit cited a recent survey by the private sector which showed that even though 20 per cent of the polled people backed the plan to alter the charter, another 20 per cent of the respondents opposed it.

The former prime minister said these group of people stated that they were ready to take to the streets if the plan to amend the constitution is pushed ahead. He warned that the move could lead to a problem of critical social division in the country.

He also warned that the planned constitutional alterations could lead to political conflicts which would affect the national security.

Mr Abhisit said he disagrees with the government’s stance to support the setting up of “red-shirt villages”, warning that it could also create more divisions.

Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra received strong support from people to become the first female government leader and therefore she has high responsibility in working for all Thai people, he said.

If Ms Yingluck has real intention to work for the benefit of people, she would be allowed to continue working, even though her government failed to implement all promised populist policies, he added.

Originally Posted by Bangkok Post

The planned constitutional amendments is not an urgent matter for the Pheu Thai-led coalition government to rush for, acting Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said at parliament on Tuesday.

How long did it take the military coup Government and their self-justifying judicial coup (as per Red Shirts) to create a new constitution incorporating all their stuff?

But no hurry now?

No democratically elected Government after a military imposed one, would accept functioning under a self-serving constitution created by the aforementioned military regime.

[QUOTE="Bangkok Post"]If Ms Yingluck has real intention to work for the benefit of people, she would be allowed to continue working[/QUOTE]

I'm sure Ms. Y. is very grateful that the Amart will allow her electorally validated Govt. to continue working.

Bangkok Post : Chalerm: Charter change not for Thaksin

Chalerm: Charter change not for Thaksin

• Published: 23/08/2011 at 04:12 PM
• Online news:

The government's policy to amend the constitution is not intended to help whitewash former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung said in parliament on Tuesday.

Mr Chalerm was replying to acting Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva who said in his reply to Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra's policy statement that the government should not rush to amend the constitution.

Mr Chalerm said it was necessary for the Pheu Thai Party to declare constitutional amendment an urgent policy because the 2007 charter was the outcome of the Sept 19, 2006 coup.

The government plans to amend Section 291 of the 2007 constitution to make way for the setting up of a constitution drafting assembly (CDA) comprising 99 members. Of this number, 77 members would be from elections, one each from the 77 provinces, and 22 others who would be selected from resourceful persons in various fields.

The CDA would continue to exist even if the Pheu Thai-led government were ousted. A draft constitution, when completed, would go to a public referendum, Mr Chalerm said.

He said before seeking to amend the 2007 charter, the government would seek advice and support from Mr Abhisit.

In response, Mr Abhisit asked if Mr Chalerm could say definitely that the constitutional amendment would not be intended to grant amnesty to Thaksin.

Mr Chalerm replied immediately that no constitution can be amended to grant amnesty to anyone.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

In response, Mr Abhisit asked if Mr Chalerm could say definitely that the constitutional amendment would not be intended to grant amnesty to Thaksin.

Mr Chalerm replied immediately that no constitution can be amended to grant amnesty to anyone.

Part of the changes are to remove amnesty for the army. Does Mark support that? Or does he want amnesty for the army? and why?

The junta amart constitution is illegal and undemocratic.

it must be trashed and replaced with a democratic legal one, which will then give the international community confidence it wont have to intervene and deal with the junta nutters.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by BKKBoet

Wow. So the 2007 charter was endorsed by a democratic referendum of the people, now the new government wants to force through constitutional changes without consultation after only a few weeks in office. Time for the Red Shirts to hit the streets again. Oh. sorry I forgot they don't have any money.

Geez, a public referendum 'too troublesome'. for WHO may I ask?

it really sounds like this government is going to be short lived and they know it

rushing through reforms faster than they can go is only going to accelerate their fall

but Thaksin being a raging pitbull, couldn't care less what the costs are

Let's hope for Thailand's sake that it's short-lived, it seems to only exist for the benefit of one person. For Democracy to really work, you need an educated well-informed public, something neither Thailand or our home countries seem to have.

More on the above, some repetition with the earlier report

Bangkok Post : Govt vows push to revise charter

Govt vows push to revise charter

Chalerm denies Thaksin amnesty is the real goal

• Published: 24/08/2011 at 12:00 AM
• Newspaper section: News

The government has vowed to press ahead with its plan to amend the coup-sponsored Constitution, raising concerns about possible renewed political confrontation.


Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra delivers her government’s policy statement before parliament yesterday morning. CHANAT KATANYU

The ruling party said it will focus primarily on amending Section 291 of the constitution to remove Section 309 and pave the way for the election of a charter drafting assembly. The move could be expected early next year.

Rewriting the Constitution is one of the government's priorities included in its policy statement being debated in parliament. The two-day debate on the government's policy statement ends today.

Pheu Thai has reiterated its position that the amendments to the 2007 Constitution must be modelled on the 1997 charter, which was abrogated by the military generals who staged the coup on Sept 19, 2006 that toppled the Thaksin Shinawatra government.

Critics have charged that Pheu Thai's plan to amend the charter is intended to clear the way for an amnesty for Thaksin, who has been sentenced to two years in jail and is now in exile overseas.

Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung said during the policy debate yesterday that the charter rewrite is not intended to help Thaksin.

He rejected claims by the Democrat Party that constitutional amendment is aimed primarily at granting amnesty to the former prime minister.

"It is a misunderstanding. The party never said if it won the election, it will amend Section 309," Mr Chalerm said.

Mr Chalerm said Pheu Thai opposes the present Constitution which was sponsored by the coup-makers and was drafted in an undemocratic climate. He said amending the charter was one of Pheu Thai's election campaign pledges that must be honoured.

Mr Chalerm said Pheu Thai will only push for a change to Section 291, which governs the process of amending the constitution, to pave the way for the election of a charter drafting assembly.

Mr Chalerm said the assembly will comprise 77 representatives elected from the 77 provinces nationwide as well as a panel of 22 academics and experts. Democrat and opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva responded by saying it was good to hear from the party that it would not pursue an amnesty for Thaksin.

However, Mr Abhisit warned that Pheu Thai should avoid stirring up unnecessary controversy.

Pirapan Palusuk, a Pheu Thai MP for Yasothon and a member of Pheu Thai's legal team, said the changes should be carried out by a charter drafting assembly made up of members of the public to ensure that the people would have a say in its content.

He said the party has agreed that the previous 1997 constitution will serve as a model for changes to the present one.

Initially, it had been proposed that members of the charter drafting assembly would comprise one or two representatives elected from every province depending upon the agreed number of assembly members.

Academics and legal experts must also be chosen from educational institutes to sit on the assembly which would be directly responsible for drawing up the new charter, Mr Pirapan said, adding that further details would be discussed before a final conclusion on the matter is reached.

Mr Pirapan said he personally thought that a charter amendment should do away with Section 309 of the present Constitution.

Section 309 justifies and legitimises actions and policies enacted under the post-coup interim constitution. It guarantees the coup-makers full amnesty and total protection from due process of the law.

The provision endorses the investigation of Thaksin and his government by the Assets Scrutiny Committee set up by the coup-makers. Scrapping the provision would overturn the actions taken, including the work of the now-defunct ASC.

However, Mr Pirapan insisted that the bid to change the Constitution has nothing to do with the granting of an amnesty to Thaksin.

The proposed charter rewrite is only aimed at ensuring that the amended Constitution would become more democratic, Mr Pirapan said.

Pheu Thai list MP Sunai Jullapongsathon said it was agreed at a party meeting that the charter rewrite could begin early next year.

He said the present Constitution is in need of amendment because it allows the judicial branch overwhelming dominance over the country's political system.

A Pheu Thai source said the government would wait for the right time to grant amnesty to Thaksin.

An amnesty would happen only after the political climate improves, the government solves the country's economic problems, national reconciliation takes place and the administration gains wider public support, the source said.

Weng pressing for charter rewrite : National News Bureau of Thailand

Weng pressing for charter rewrite



BANGKOK, 24 August 2011 (NNT) – Pheu Thai party-listed MP Medical Doctor Weng Tojirakarn will push forward constitutional amendment in the next three months while affirming the Party’s decision to return reconciliation to the Thai society.

Medical Doctor Weng announced that the Pheu Thai Party will do two main things, including returning reconciliation to the society and rewrite the charter to make it more democratic. He said reconciliation is not to forget problems but to find and solve them.

The MP, also core leader of the United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD), noted that to create reconciliation, the truth must be revealed. He uttered that there must be irregularities in Thailand as, he claimed, war weapons were used to kill citizens in the political protest in 2010.

As for the amnesty for Pol Lt-Col Thaksin Shinawatra, Medical Doctor Weng responded that it depends on people of the whole nation. Regarding the charter rewrite, he termed the 2007 Constitution as the most hideous in the world as its Section 309 recognizes a coup d’état a legitimate action.

The MP exclaimed that anyone trying to protect the 2007 edition of the charter is equal to saving the ugliness property of the country. He said after the Pheu Thai Party is successful in solving economic problems in the next three months, the constitutional amendment will be raised.

Medical Doctor Weng explained that the charter rewrite can be made by a Constitutional Drafting Assembly comprising representatives from the 77 provinces of the country, and when it is completed, people nationwide will be asked if they agree with the drafted charter or not.

The UDD key figure said the Pheu Thai Party has to create reconciliation this year and deems charter rewrite a very urgent agenda. He vowed that from now on soldiers should never be ordered or empowered to shoot at civilians anymore.

Originally Posted by Calgary

Originally Posted by Bangkok Post

The planned constitutional amendments is not an urgent matter for the Pheu Thai-led coalition government to rush for, acting Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said at parliament on Tuesday.

How long did it take the military coup Government and their self-justifying judicial coup (as per Red Shirts) to create a new constitution incorporating all their stuff?

But no hurry now?

No democratically elected Government after a military imposed one, would accept functioning under a self-serving constitution created by the aforementioned military regime.

Let's not forget that the 2007 constitution was the second constitution promulgated by the junta. They imposed an "interim" constitution almost immediately (within two weeks) of taking power. The 2007 constitution was promulgated almost exactly one year after the coup.

It also needs to be pointed out that what's being discussed at the moment is amending the 2007 constitution to allow for a future constitution drafting assembly (would probably take about one year before a new constitution is promulgated) or, more-or-less, reverting to the 1997 constitution, the last legal constitution (the fast-track solution). Some here seem to labouring under the delusion that what's being discussed for the short-term is a complete re-write.

^^

Weng pressing for charter rewrite : National News Bureau of Thailand

Not sure how this "National News Bureau of Thailand" fits into the propagandistic media landscape, but reading the above article certainly suggests they belong there.

Continually refer to Dr. Weng as "Medical Dr. Weng". not sure what the intent is with that. I cannot recall other "doctorates' being referred to by their Doctoral context. Most likely denigration of some sort.

In other Amart media, they will often quote those who they like without qualifyer.

Case in point, in another thread an academic from Chula U. was quoted and contextualized by his organizational position at Chula. U.

Given the rabid anti-PTP and Ms. Y rant of his, caused me to question this guy's reality. In fact, Dr. Bob pointed out the maxi-PAD nature of this guy. Something not referenced by the lovely media.

But in tha case of Dr. Weng, they bent over backwards contextualizing him as being a UDD leader. Highlighting it twice in case one missed it the first time.

Double standard or what!

Calgary, NNBT is the governments own news website. Who is in government?

Now, it may be that there are some working there leftover from the previous government and that Pheu Thai will be getting their people in place, to no doubt give us all the *real* news, shortly....but it is the governments news service. So, once more, who is in power here?

(there are rumours that the board of MCOT will be ousted soon...and curiously since Pheu Thai took over, the NNT and MCOT website have gone down several times...but I am sure that is just coincidence...)

^ Thanks DrB. That is very useful to know.

Originally Posted by DrB0b

[...It also needs to be pointed out that what's being discussed at the moment is amending the 2007 constitution to allow for a future constitution drafting assembly (would probably take about one year before a new constitution is promulgated) or, more-or-less, reverting to the 1997 constitution, the last legal constitution (the fast-track solution). Some here seem to labouring under the delusion that what's being discussed for the short-term is a complete re-write.

I agree that what is being dicussed is a change to section 291 which deals with how the constitution can be ammended. I guess they have to put in words to allow a constitution drafting assembly to be setup.

The other action being discussed is the removal of Section 309. I can only think of two reasons to remove that.

Section 309. All acts recognised in the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand (Interim), B.E. 2549 (2006) as lawful and constitutional, including acts incidental thereto whether performed prior to or subsequent to the date of the promulgation of this Constitution, shall be deemed constitutional under this Constitution.

1. Prosecution of the coup makers
2. Would give a reason for a court to declare the conviction and confiscation of a portion of the proceeds of the Shin Corp sale of Thaksin unconstitutional.

Can you think of any other reasons?
TH

Originally Posted by DrB0b

It may interest to you to know that a common description of the way Thailand is run is "Bureaucratic Polity". This refers to the civil service, specifically the leaders of the civil service whose jobs derive specifically from positions in the old aristocracy. Another phrase worth looking up is Kha Ratjakhan, it might help you understand who the Civil Service are responsible to. The Thai phrase from which the English "bureaucratic polity" is derived is "amartyathippatai", you may have come across this word before.

As an adjunct to this, see Autocratic Rule in Thailand and Its Neighbours | Prachatai English

Too long and wide-ranging to reproduce here - not to mention that there are sections that would need to be snipped. One para and a lecture slide as appetite whetters:

The structure of the Thai government , simplified.

"Forget the structure of government, forget the legislative body, parliament, the prime minister, the judiciary. Think of the Thai state as an entangled mass of interlocking relationships, alliances, and struggles between and among many centres of power often in competition with one another. Imagine further a jungle gym such as you find in playgrounds where the links are made of flexible braided cables instead of rope and are joined together at connection points. These points where the cables connect are nodes of power: institutions such as the parliament, the police force with its many factions, the army with its many factions, and the office of prime minister; business conglomerates; units of the bureaucracy, such as the Ministry of the Interior or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or sub-units of these and other departments; and the palace(s). Each of these connection points or nodes of power can have a great deal of autonomy, can in fact operate without being told or asked to do something. A scholarly literature on “governmental nodes” and their variety shows that this concept of state is widespread in the world today. There are forms of governmental activity outside of the state and pluralisation and autonomy that is not planned or anticipated or authorised."

Originally Posted by Thaihome

Originally Posted by DrB0b

[...It also needs to be pointed out that what's being discussed at the moment is amending the 2007 constitution to allow for a future constitution drafting assembly (would probably take about one year before a new constitution is promulgated) or, more-or-less, reverting to the 1997 constitution, the last legal constitution (the fast-track solution). Some here seem to labouring under the delusion that what's being discussed for the short-term is a complete re-write.

I agree that what is being dicussed is a change to section 291 which deals with how the constitution can be ammended. I guess they have to put in words to allow a constitution drafting assembly to be setup.

The other action being discussed is the removal of Section 309. I can only think of two reasons to remove that.

Section 309. All acts recognised in the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand (Interim), B.E. 2549 (2006) as lawful and constitutional, including acts incidental thereto whether performed prior to or subsequent to the date of the promulgation of this Constitution, shall be deemed constitutional under this Constitution.

1. Prosecution of the coup makers
2. Would give a reason for a court to declare the conviction and confiscation of a portion of the proceeds of the Shin Corp sale of Thaksin unconstitutional.

Can you think of any other reasons?
TH

I'm not sure about point 2. What in the interim constitution would have affected Thaksin's conviction?

I can see some good reasons for removing section 309. It would allow for prosecution of the coup makers as the interim constitution granted them complete immunity from prosecution and retroactively legalised all the actions and pronouncements of the coup makers. It also allowed for the removal of the PM by the CNS. It would also allow for the restructuring of the Constitutional Court, the structure of which was changed in the interim constitution.

If this section is removed then the coup, the subsequent actions of the coup makers, and the interim constitution itself could be declared illegal. If the interim constitution was declared to be an illegal constitution then, as the interim constitution defined the process for drafting the 2007 constitution, the 2007 constitution could then also be declared illegal.

My own opinion is that this is the first step towards removing the legal protections the coup makers granted themselves and the beginning of a process which will either end in prosecutions, another governmental overthrow, or a series of court hearings which won't reach any conclusion until long after all of us are dead.

Bangkok Post : Why rush to alter charter?

EDITORIAL

Why rush to alter charter?

• Published: 25/08/2011 at 12:00 AM
• Newspaper section: News

Apparently unperturbed by criticism and possible political fallout, the Pheu Thai-led government appears determined to push ahead with its plan to write a new constitution to replace the current charter, which the party holds in contempt for the mere fact it is a legacy of the military junta that toppled the Thaksin administration in Sept 2006.



Rewriting the charter has been listed as one of the 16 urgent policies of the new government, as announced in its policy statement to Parliament on Tuesday by Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra. To make this possible, Section 291 of the current charter which spells out the methods and guidelines on how to amend the charter, will be amended in order to pave way for the creation of a charter-drafting assembly which will be tasked with crafting a new charter.

But the real intention of the whole rewriting exercise is to scrap Section 309 of the existing charter. The rest of the exercise is just a sideshow meant to distract public attention.

Why Section 309? The provision, in essence, legitimises all the actions undertaken by the 2006 coup-makers, including in particular the setting up of the Assets Scrutiny Committee to investigate suspected corruption practices of the Thaksin regime. Scrapping the entire provision means that all the actions and decisions made by the committee would be invalidated. In other words, the corruption cases investigated by the ASC and then tried or decided by the Supreme Court's criminal division for political office holders, would be declared null and void as a result of the abrogation of this particular provision.

Thaksin Shinawatra is the person most investigated by the ASC, though other members of his cabinet were also investigated on corruption charges. Former deputy finance minister Varathep Rattanakorn, for instance, was handed a 2-year suspended jail term along with former finance permanent secretary Somchainuk Engtrakul and Chaiwat Pasokpakdi, director of the Lottery Bureau, over the two- and three-digit lottery scheme introduced by the Thaksin government in 2003.

Besides the Ratchadapisek land scandal in which Thaksin was sentenced in absentia to a 2-year jail term for conflict of interest, the fugitive ex-premier also faces three other corruption cases still pending with the court. These are the 4-billion-baht soft loan for the Burmese government by the Export-Import Bank of Thailand, supposedly to help develop a communications system in Burma with equipment sold by Shin Satellite; the conversion of telecom concession fees to excise tax in which Shin Corp (then owned by the Shinawatra family) was alleged to benefit at the expense of the state; and lastly, the special lottery scheme.

Given all these cases against Thaksin, critics have been quick to point out that the government's attempt to rewrite or amend the charter is meant to benefit just one individual _ Thaksin. Of course, the government has categorically denied this.

If the whole exercise is indeed not meant to absolve Thaksin, then why the rush? Is the current charter so undemocratic or bad that it needs an urgent make-over? Why didn't members of the People Power Party, Pheu Thai's predecessor, demand the amendments when they had the chance a few years back?

Amending the charter or writing a new one now is a badly thought-out move by Pheu Thai, which will unnecessarily bring a backlash on the government. It is not an urgent issue and will not benefit the public, except for one individual.

Bangkok Post : Pheu Thai employs charter panel trickery

Pheu Thai employs charter panel trickery

• Published: 25/08/2011 at 12:00 AM
• Newspaper section: News

The Pheu Thai Party has proposed a long-winded process for amending the constitution, leaving many to wonder why it wants to go through so much trouble when it has more than enough parliamentary support to make the changes itself.

Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung said during the government's policy declaration in parliament that the amendment drive would kick off early next year.

He said Section 291 of the constitution would be modified to remove Section 309 and pave the way for the election of a charter drafting assembly.

He said the assembly will comprise 77 elected representatives to represent the provinces, and a panel of 22 academics and experts.

The party believes the charter is dictatorial, as it was a product of the Sept 19, 2006 coup that ousted from power Thaksin Shinawatra, now the Pheu Thai Party's de facto leader.

The party argued that the drafters of the constitution were selected with the blessing of the coup makers, so the charter itself must be tainted.

More importantly, the charter includes a clause that effectively pardoned the coup engineers of any legal violations before and after the constitution went into effect.

Pheu Thai feels it is obligated to "democratise" the charter. Any amendments could easily be achieved in several months with the government simply exercising its majority in the House, said Speaker Somsak Kiatsuranont.

But Pheu Thai has opted for a more complicated path of fine-tuning laws, forming a drafting assembly and putting the amended charter up for referendum. Many pundits wonder why it's taking the uphill approach.

One answer could be the party wants to delegate away amendment responsibility so it alone does not have to bear the pressure that will be a natural byproduct of the process.

The party is confident it can muster enough support both inside and outside parliament to amend Section 291 and eventually achieve endorsement of the rewritten charter at the referendum.

The Pheu Thai-led government stands to benefit from putting charter drafters in place instead of leaving amendments in the hands of political parties.

One contentious section in both the current and the abrogated charters could cause trouble for the government if it does not handle it right.

The section pertains to political post-holders who are convicted on charges of being unusually rich, and face a permanent ban from engaging in political activities.

If Pheu Thai had tried to go it alone in seeking charter amendments, it could have been accused of trying to have the section revised to help former premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

Letting an assembly of drafters do the charter rewriting job could allow Pheu Thai to claim that if the contentious section was to be amended it would be done with the mandate of the wider population, not at its directive.

A constitutional amendment could also be pursued to restructure the independent agencies, raising fears that their integrity could be compromised.

Again, if Pheu Thai was seen to be engineering the changes itself, it could make itself unpopular.

Letting a drafting panel make the charter changes is a far safer bet politically for the government.