Thai prime minister accused of war crimes

**Bobcock** · 25-01-2011, 07:52 PM

I suspect deep down most Thais are proud as hell that no PM has sold them out to foreign interference.........

**Mid** · 25-01-2011, 07:55 PM

Note you said Pm as opposed to FM as in Foreign

**DrB0b** · 25-01-2011, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Bobcock

I suspect deep down most Thais are proud as hell that no PM has sold them out to foreign interference.........

They might be. But like so many other things Thais are proud of it's not true.

**Butterfly** · 25-01-2011, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by DrB0b

I get your point. Still, you've got to admit it's a great comedy show, isn't it?

I assume you mean the comedy show that Khun Thaksin is putting together while being himself guilty of those same alleged crimes

yeah, I am sure he got the irony of this too

**DrB0b** · 25-01-2011, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by Butterfly

I assume you mean the comedy show that Khun Thaksin is putting together while being himself guilty of those same alleged crimes yeah, I am sure he got the irony of this too

You should stop assuming, you're really bad at it. You see that word I put in italics, any, go get yourself a dictionary and find out what it means. Until you can work out what the simplest, most basic, English words mean you should confine yourself to responding to posts in your native language, Gibberish.

**Butterfly** · 25-01-2011, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by DrB0b

YTou should stop assuming, you're really bad at it. You see that word I put in italics, any, go get yourself a dictionary and find out what it means. Until you can work out what the simplest, most basic, English words mean you should confine yourself to responding to posts in your native language, Gibberish.

**StrontiumDog** · 26-01-2011, 01:33 AM

Red Shirts ICC Application Supported by Leading US Human Rights Expert | Robert Amsterdam Thailand

January 25, 2011

Red Shirts ICC Application Supported by Leading US Human Rights Expert

In preparation for the Jan. 31 submission of an application to the International Criminal Court (ICC), the law firm Amsterdam & Peroff has assembled a large team of both Thai and international human rights law experts, including the highly regarded law professor Douglass Cassel.

Professor Cassel, who serves as Director of the Center for Civil and Human Rights at Norte Dame University and has been named as a Norte Dame Presidential Fellow, has been working alongside lawyers Robert Amsterdam and Alexander Geert-Jan Knoops, among others, since the beginning of the process in preparing the upcoming application before the ICC on behalf of victims of the April and May 2010 crackdown.

Professor Cassel has published scholarly articles in English and Spanish are published in the United States, Latin America and Europe, and has presented before numerous universities and conferences worldwide. He has filed several amicus curiae briefs in the United States Supreme Court on behalf of retired United States diplomats and leading experts on international law, involving the rights of prisoners at Guantanamo, and accountability for human rights violations under the Alien Tort Claims Act (ATCA). He has also represented victims of human rights violations in Colombia, Guatemala, Peru and Venezuela, in cases before the Inter-American Commission and Inter-American Court of Human Rights.

Professor Cassel has served as Legal Advisor to the United Nations Commission on the Truth for El Salvador; Executive Council member of the American Society of International Law; co-chair of the International Committee of the Board of Directors of the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law; Chair of the Independent International Panel on Alleged Collusion in Sectarian Killings in Northern Ireland; and consultant to the Department of State, Department of Justice, Ford Foundation, the President of the American Bar Association, and non-governmental human rights organizations. In 2000 and again in 2003, he was nominated by the US Government, and elected by the Organization of American States, to serve on the Board of the Justice Studies Center of the Americas, of which he was elected President. Since 2000 he has been President of the Due Process of Law Foundation, based in Washington, D.C., which promotes judicial reform throughout the hemisphere.

Professor Cassel commented on the ICC application to be filed on Jan. 31: “Some observers have suggested that the ICC has no jurisdiction because Thailand has not joined the ICC. However, the ICC has other bases of jurisdiction. It is entirely possible for the ICC to have jurisdiction even when the country where the events took place is not a member of the ICC.”

“It’s a great pleasure to work with Professor Cassel on this historic case,” said Robert Amsterdam. “His experience in international human rights law is invaluable in assisting our ambitious goal of bringing an end to impunity in Thailand and revealing the truth about the April and May massacres, through any and all international legal fora available. Our expectations are measured, and everyone understands that we face a long, uphill battle. We must make every effort to break the ongoing, systemic political persecution of the Red Shirt movement.”

On Oct. 26, 2010, Amsterdam & Peroff filed a preliminary report to the ICC ahead of its official application.

**StrontiumDog** · 26-01-2011, 11:39 AM

^ Just fyi.

Douglass W. Cassel - KeyWiki

Douglass W. Cassel

From KeyWiki

Douglass Cassel

Douglass W. Cassel is Director of the Notre Dame Law School’s Center for Civil and Human Rights.[1]

Legal activism

Cassel has served as a consultant to the United Nations, the Organization of American States, the U.S. State Department, and the Ford Foundation. From 1992 to 1993, he served as legal advisor to the U.N. Commission on the Truth for El Salvador, supervising its investigations, and acting as principle editor of its report. His scholarly articles in English and Spanish are published in the United States, Latin America and Europe, and he lectures at universities and conferences worldwide. On behalf of retired United States diplomats, and leading experts on international law, he has filed several amicus curiae briefs in the United States Supreme Court, involving the rights of prisoners at Guantanamo, and accountability for human rights violations. He represents victims of human rights violations in Colombia, Guatemala, Peru and Venezuela, in cases before the Inter-American Commission and Inter-American Court of Human Rights[2].
Tribute to Golub and Montgomery

ON November 16, 1989, Cassel served on the Tribute Committee for the Chicago Committee to Defend the Bill of Rights Tribute to Leon Golub and Lucy Montgomery, held at the Congress Hotel, Chicago.[3]
Speaking with Ayers and Obama

Bill Ayers and Barack Obama spoke together at a public gathering sponsored by The Center for Public Intellectuals & the University of Illinois-Chicago, April 19th-20th, 2002, at the Chicago Illini Union;
"Intellectuals: Who Needs Them?
IV. Intellectuals in Times of Crisis
Experiences and applications of intellectual work in urgent situations.

Bill Ayers, UIC, College of Education; author of Fugitive Days
Douglass Cassel, Northwestern University, Center for International Human Rights
Cathy Cohen, University of Chicago, Political Science
Salim Muwakkil, Chicago Tribune; In These Times
Barack Obama, Illinois State Senator
Barbara Ransby, UIC, African-American Studies (moderator)[4].

Business and Professional People for the Public Interest

In 2008, Douglass Cassel served on the Advisory Board of the Chicago based Business and Professional People for the Public Interest.[5]
Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law

Cassel serves on the Lawyers' Committee For Civil Rights Under Law Board of Directors, as of March 10, 2010.[6]
External links

References

↑ Cassel's profile with Notre Dame
↑ Douglass Cassel // Notre Dame News // University of Notre Dame
↑ Tribute to Golub and Montgomery: Program, Nov. 16, 1989
↑ Conference
↑ BPI website: Board of Directors
↑ Board of Directors, LCCRUL

**Tom Sawyer** · 26-01-2011, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Originally Posted by Mid

A senior government delegation from Thailand participated in the Rome Conference in 1998 where the ICC Statute was adopted.

On October 2, 2000, Thailand took a very important first step toward the ICC by signing the Rome Statute.

From Wikipedia:

"..38 states have signed but not ratified the treaty;the law of treaties obliges these states to refrain from “acts which would defeat the object and purpose” of the treaty."

My point above is that according to the law of treaties (Vienna 1949?), it doesn't matter whether Thailand has ratified. They have signed it and now are OBLIGED not to do anything that would defeat the objectives and purposes of the ICC. Thailand's only recourse is to "unsign" as the US has done.

Yes I concede that it was the Government prior to TRT that signed the Treaty of Rome.. I thought it was the coalition that he was deputy PM - but it wasn't - it was the interim gov after that (prior to the 2001 election deemed the fairest and most democractic Thailand had ever seen).

**StrontiumDog** · 31-01-2011, 12:56 PM

http://www.tannetwork.tv/tan/ViewData.aspx?DataID=1040185

Robert Amsterdam Brings May 19 Crackdown on Reds to ICC

UPDATE : 31 January 2011

Robert Amsterdam, legal advisor to former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, has announced he will be bringing charges against the Thai military for cracking down on red shirt protesters to the International Criminal Court.

**StrontiumDog** · 31-01-2011, 01:01 PM

Rajprasong_News UDDThailand

"There are 67 million victims of this government in Thailand!" Robert Amsterdam

**Butterfly** · 31-01-2011, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

"There are 67 million victims of this government in Thailand!" Robert Amsterdam

what a lunatic, he will go well with the other red loonies here

**StrontiumDog** · 31-01-2011, 03:25 PM

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingn...mplaint-to-icc

Reds file case with world court

Published: 31/01/2011 at 02:09 PM
Online news: Local News

Lawyers acting for the red-shirt United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) on Monday filed a case against Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva with the International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague, seeking an inquiry into an alleged crimes against humanity during the April-May crackdown last year.

Although an ICC representative earlier told the red-shirt movement that ICC had no jurisdiction over alleged political crimes in Thailand, since Bangkok had yet to ratify the treaty it signed in 2000.
However, the lawyers insisted they can bring a case against Mr Abhisit because he also has British nationality.

The United Kingdom has ratified the ICC treaty.

Speaking from Tokyo via videoconference, lawyer Robert Amsterdam said the ICC application contains a detailed testimony, including an expert report by Joe Ray Witty, a former US Army sergeant and crowd control expert with the Los Angeles Police Department special weapons and tactics group.

Sgt Witty's opinion is that that the Royal Thai Army's operations on May 19, 2010 were "military in nature" and "designed to kill innocent civilians, without provocation or justification, in order to suppress the red-shirt demonstrations", according to Mr Amsterdam

**Butterfly** · 31-01-2011, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

However, the lawyers insisted they can bring a case against Mr Abhisit because he also has British nationality.

**StrontiumDog** · 31-01-2011, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

"There are 67 million victims of this government in Thailand!" Robert Amsterdam

what a lunatic, he will go well with the other red loonies here

Making such preposterous statements certainly wont help the cause.

But it's good for headlines/soundbites. And this is all this is about.

**Mid** · 31-01-2011, 03:54 PM

วันจันทร์ ที่ 31 ม.ค. 2554

PM unworried by UDD application to International Criminal Court to investigate 'crimes against humanity' in Thailand; affirms he does not hold dual nationality as accused

mcot.net

**StrontiumDog** · 31-01-2011, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Mid

วันจันทร์ ที่ 31 ม.ค. 2554

PM unworried by UDD application to International Criminal Court to investigate 'crimes against humanity' in Thailand; affirms he does not hold dual nationality as accused

mcot.net

So, even this (rather important) detail is wrong....what is Amsterdam doing?

Amsterdam: grounds for ICC accepting case: Abhisit is a UK national [at]Rajprasong_News

Amsterdam said it earlier today....

He is going to look utterly inept if he gets this wrong.

**Mid** · 31-01-2011, 04:12 PM

Hey look ,

a politicians lips are moving

**StrontiumDog** · 31-01-2011, 04:29 PM

^ it's certainly a most interesting issue.

If Abhisit is lying, he's in for a world of pain.

if Amsterdam is caught out being inept, he's going to look really incompetent.

Either way, someone is going to look like a dick.

The entire application hinges upon this rather important issue. Does he have dual nationality or not?

Anyone know?

**StrontiumDog** · 31-01-2011, 04:34 PM

Abhisit Sued As Briton In World Court - Voice TV

Abhisit Sued As Briton In World Court

Abhisit Vejjajiva was sued as a British national in a historic lawsuit filed with the International Criminal Court involving last year’s Bangkok massacres.

Robert Amsterdam, a lawyer acting on behalf of the Red Shirt movement, said on Monday the Thai prime minister was charged as a Briton, given the fact he was born in 1964 in England, for allegedly giving orders for the military to kill nearly 100 unarmed civilians and injure about 2,000 others in Rajadamnern and Rajaprasong areas last year.

Thailand is not a signatory to the Rome Statute under which lawsuits involving human rights abuses which may have occurred in member states could be brought to the ICC in the Hague. Given the United Kingdom being under jurisdiction of the world court, the lawsuit could be lodged against such a Briton as the Thai prime minister, according to Mr Amsterdam.

In a press conference from Tokyo, the Canadian lawyer confirmed the lawsuit lodged to the ICC against Mr Abhisit and his Democrat-led government on grounds of alleged crimes against humanity will lead to investigation by the world court into the massacres of Red Shirt protesters and other Thai civilians in the Bangkok streets.

Several military officers, who remained in active posts, had given their accounts on the slayings of the unarmed protesters by military forces which, he said, were an evident violation of the internationally-recognized principles of human rights.

Mr Amsterdam urged other military officers to come forward and provide truthful information to help with the ICC probe pertaining to the military crackdowns on the anti-government protesters.

Enclosed with the lawsuit against Mr Abhisit were 250 pages of evidence pertaining to the alleged massacres of the civilians at the orders of the premier. (Read content of the lawsuit below)

Red Shirts Application to the International Criminal Court to Investigate Crimes against Humanity in Thailand

**DrB0b** · 31-01-2011, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

^ it's certainly a most interesting issue.

If Abhisit is lying, he's in for a world of pain.

if Amsterdam is caught out being inept, he's going to look really incompetent.

Either way, someone is going to look like a dick.

The entire application hinges upon this rather important issue. Does he have dual nationality or not?

Anyone know?

Anybody, except the children of certain diplomats, born in the UK before 1983 is automatically a British citizen. It hinges on whether Abhisit ever revoked his British nationality. I always assumed that he had revoked it, especially after the fuss he made over T's alleged Cambodian citizenship and surely the issue would have been raised before he was allowed to become PM.

if Amsterdam is caught out being inept, he's going to look really incompetent.

I doubt it. He's one of the most well known and succesful political lawyers in the world. Even in the unlikely event that he screwed up here his past achievements would still outweigh that screw-up. I think that even if Abhisit only has Thai citizenship that this will be seen as an excellent example of lawerly shenanigans and actually enhance Amsterdam's reputation for playing hardball.

**Panda** · 31-01-2011, 05:30 PM

Isn't it interesting how sometimes obvious crimes against humanity can come down to technical points of law like, -- if Abhisit actually holds dual nationality?

As My old grandfather said to me over 50 years ago, -- "justice and the law are not always the same thing". Nothing much has changed.

**Mid** · 31-01-2011, 06:20 PM

Red Shirts Application to the International Criminal Court to Investigate Crimes against Humanity in Thailand

scribd.com

In case Scribd is giving you any trouble, you can also directly download the document from us right here.

robertamsterdam.com

**StrontiumDog** · 31-01-2011, 10:08 PM

http://mg.co.za/article/2011-01-31-t...-of-protesters

Thai opposition calls for probe into deaths of protesters

BANGKOK, THAILAND

Jan 31 2011 14:09

Thailand's anti-government movement the Red Shirts has officially asked the International Criminal Court (ICC) to investigate possible crimes against humanity committed by the government, its lawyer said on Monday.

Robert Amsterdam, a London-based representative for the movement, filed the petition on Sunday relating to deadly street clashes in Bangkok during two months of protests last year, he told a press conference via videolink.

The application requested that ICC prosecutors "launch a preliminary investigation relating to potential crimes against humanity committed in Thailand in April and May", Amsterdam said from Tokyo.

During the red-clad demonstrations in the capital -- which peaked at 100 000 people calling for immediate elections -- clashes between protesters and the military left more than 90 people dead.

Amsterdam cited in particular the alleged use of snipers and the firing of live ammunition by the army during the violence.

'I am a Thai citizen, not Montenegrin'

Although Thailand has not ratified the Rome Statute that created the ICC, Amsterdam argued that Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva was in fact a citizen of Great Britain where he was born, which is a signatory of the pact.

"I am a Thai citizen, not Montenegrin," Abhisit later said, in a jibe at the Reds' hero and fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra, who has been given citizenship of Montenegro.

Shinawatra, who was ousted in a coup in 2006 and lives abroad to escape a jail term for corruption, is also represented by Amsterdam.

The Red Shirts first urged the ICC to investigate the allegations in October, although the official complaint was filed on Sunday.

"We are appealing to international justice to put an end to Thai impunity," said the acting chairperson of the Red Shirts, Thida Thavornseth.

"Our courts have failed to administer justice, and our government has failed to investigate the murders of more than 80 peaceful protesters," she added.

'Whitewash'

After an army crackdown that ended the protests in May, small bands of militant protesters set dozens of buildings ablaze across Bangkok, including a glitzy shopping mall in the upmarket commercial district.

An official Thai investigation into the deaths is under way, but the opposition has denounced the probe as a "whitewash".

The mostly poor and working class Red Shirts have shown increasing strength in recent months, holding rallies in Bangkok twice a month that have attracted tens of thousands of supporters. -- Sapa-AFP

**StrontiumDog** · 31-01-2011, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

^ it's certainly a most interesting issue.

If Abhisit is lying, he's in for a world of pain.

if Amsterdam is caught out being inept, he's going to look really incompetent.

Either way, someone is going to look like a dick.

The entire application hinges upon this rather important issue. Does he have dual nationality or not?

Anyone know?

Anybody, except the children of certain diplomats, born in the UK before 1983 is automatically a British citizen. It hinges on whether Abhisit ever revoked his British nationality. I always assumed that he had revoked it, especially after the fuss he made over T's alleged Cambodian citizenship and surely the issue would have been raised before he was allowed to become PM.

if Amsterdam is caught out being inept, he's going to look really incompetent.

I doubt it. He's one of the most well known and succesful political lawyers in the world. Even in the unlikely event that he screwed up here his past achievements would still outweigh that screw-up. I think that even if Abhisit only has Thai citizenship that this will be seen as an excellent example of lawerly shenanigans and actually enhance Amsterdam's reputation for playing hardball.

True, only in the legal profession does being a mendacious, inept loudmouth garner you more respect and get you more work.

There's a reason why lawyers are detested so much...!

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