Investigators fail to identify killers of foreign journalists

[quote=Rural Surin;1604025]

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Originally Posted by Mr Lick

Hague law and Geneva Law, RS, which also includes Customary Law which is binding on all states and also regulates the conduct of individuals. :)

[/quote= Rural Surin;1604025] BS and nonsense.

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Components of the law of armed conflict

The law of armed conflict was traditionally divided into two parts, each
named after the city where much of the law was devised. Hague law was
largely concerned with how military operations are conducted; Geneva
law was concerned with the protection of the victims of armed conflict. The

two bodies of law have now merged

Customary law

Customary international law consists of the rules which, as a result of state

practice over a period of time, have become accepted as legally binding.


www.mod.uk

^

proves what ?

RS is correct

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bettyboo

Post #190 is truly hideous. Mr Lick very often seems such a reasonable individual, so why the blatant nonsense in this post??? Anyone reading it could have picked up on so many ludicrous comments, I've cut a few 'highlights' out:

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Originally Posted by Mr Lick

lets just say that it's not a Thai trait.

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Detached from the argument to say the least, but when you have zero defence then such catch all phrases may seem 'smart'; of course, they are anything but... You are attempting to use an oppressive discourse trick, just like the army do; forcing a one-sided language upon the nation as the only frame of discourse is an evil intentioned action; one that has been playing for 70 years now...

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Originally Posted by Mr Lick

In my view the use of snipers was a good idea, given that the government had made the decision to clear the area and that advancement would most probably would be met with violence.

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This says a lot about your extreme viewpoint. You believe that it is a good idea for army snipers to kill political protestors... 'Clear the area' is a 'nice' way, in this case, of saying 'kill people who have a different political opinion to you'; nice - I'm very tempted to bring out my 'shameful' comment again (seems as you enjoyed it so much last time).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr Lick

if the security services shot the people at the temple, they probably did so mistakingly believing they were at risk and tensions were high.

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Even in the most extreme of extreme cases (army strategically positioned upon a BTS track and firing into a Wat that had been agreed as a safe haven for protestors trying to avoid the 'live firing zones', then firing into that safe haven; don't forget the way they sectioned off the area and sent in the cleanup crew afterwards!) you are looking to excuse the mass murderers with phrases like 'mistakingly', 'believing they were at risk', 'tensions were high'; maybe you should ask Murdock for a job... Shameful!

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Originally Posted by Mr Lick

We hear of many incidents during other conflicts such as the Iraqi/Afghanistan wars where allies are killed by 'friendly fire'.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr Lick

I am afraid Thailand is not alone in denials when it comes to armed conflict.

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You heap shame upon your shame here... Ignoring the fact that you are using murderous American propaganda as your tool ('friendly fire; doesn't seem very friendly to me or the dead people killed by it), you are citing the deliberate invasion of a country by an external force and changing into a war zone, as a parallel, an analogy, for political protestors in their own capital city.

Your 'other conflicts' is an attempt to qualify the Bangkok political rally as an armed struggle between armies; i.e. a war. In which case it's normal for soldiers to kill people; basically, you are shamefully attempting to justify the mass murder of political protestors in Bangkok by their own army. Unbelieveable...

Mr Lick, look over your arguments in the cold light of day; perhaps in the heat of the squabble, you just spat out these remarks, but if you stand by them now, I would ssay there is little hope for a reasonable discussion with you.

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BB, FYI i am not writing anything shameful. Like you i have opinions on the matter, but unlike yourself i have remained neutral and as such you really should not be responding to me as though i was the PM of Thailand. Your grievance is clearly with him and his government not with me.

His choice of dispersing the violent protesters was not the only choice available, some posters have mentioned that the RTP could have been used but i suspect that at the time there was little support within the force for a government mounted operaton against the Thaksin supporters so his options were limited.

Can i be so bold as to ask what professional advice you could have offered the government in dispersing protesters who had taken siege of a certain part of the capital city for a 2 month period and no alternative action could be found? (further negotiations not being part of the scenario) and how you could have achieved less casualties than the current figures?

Csn i also be so bold as to ask if you have served in the military or possessed a firearm at any time?

I admire your convictions on this matter as i am sure like myself, you would have prefered to see all protesters and military personnel return home safely.
Unfortunately, there was an impasse and the government had a duty to the citizens of Bangkok, following 2 months of unsuccessful negotiations to disperse those who were acting unlawfully.

I am not going to repeat myself on how the operation could have been improved and indeed the law relating to armed conflict, just to mention that the government was in a no win situation regarding the decision to remove unlawful protesters and defend their men in that duty if necessary.

I'm not sure why you mentioned that my quote of 'accountability is not a Thai trait' as being detached from the argument when the OP concerns the investigation into the deaths of non combatants. It is very much a part of the 'discussion' as i would prefer to call it.

It's always better that we stick to the facts and get a little less emotional about the government and red shirts. In a perfect world all governments would be shouting the truth from the rooftops, however it would appear that many suffer from the effects of vertigo, so we shouldn't be surprised if they don't. :)

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Originally Posted by sabang

Yes, at the end of the day one cannot read a political history of Thailand and fail to see that the nascent democracy here is largely a facade. As with several other nations, true power resides with those that control the guns. It's an ongoing struggle, but I think all of the demographic trends suggest that democracy will prevail. There will be another popular 'Thaksin', who will be perceived as a threat, the same old tensions will arise. There is nothing particularly unique about takkie, neither is he anywhere near the first prominent Thai political figure to be exiled or in exile

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Seems as if no one cares to learn from the extracted cycles of history. We seem to just repeat the same old story....as any other alternative tales are usually censored or castigated. The underlying and subliminal romance with militaristic dogma will always play a key factor.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home...-30142377.html


DSI probe progress on Bangkok unrest

The Department of Special Investigation is working to solve 254 cases, including 89 people killed, related to violence triggered by the red-shirt protests in April and May, DSI director general Tharit Pengdit said on Tuesday in a progress report.

The investigation has drawn conclusion for some 54 cases which are under the judicial review, Tharit said.

Of the 89 people killed during the unrest, investigators have divided the casualties into two groups - one caused by the red-shirt unrest and another inflicted by unidentified culprits with suspected involvement of state officials, he said.

Among killings related to the unrest, there are eight ongoing cases. These include the killing of five soldiers, including Colonel Romklao Thuwatham, on April 10 near Din So Road,

Another highly-publicised case is the M-79 attack at Sala Daeng BTS station with one death and 37 injured followed by the gun and grenade attack at a police checkpoint at Sala Daeng and another M-79 attack near Lumpini Park.

The Nation

A more thorough report from the Bangkok Post.....

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/loca...e-on-18-deaths

DSI concludes probe into 18 deaths

• Published: 16/11/2010 at 05:40 PM
• Online news: Local News

The Department of Special Investigation has finished its investigation into the deaths of 18 out of 89 people who died as a result of the protest violence from April 10-May 21.

DSI chief Tharit Pengsit said out of the 18 deaths, 12 were found to have been caused by the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) and its supporting armed elements.

It could not yet be determined if the six other deaths were caused by the UDD or government authorities.

In its investigation into the death of 89 people in Bangkok and nearby provinces, the DSI, based on police autopsy reports, found that five soldiers were killed by the UDD and supporting elements in a violent clash at Khok Wua intersection on April 10.

They were: Col Romklo Thuwatham, Sgt Anuphon Hommali, Cpl Anupong Muangampan, Pvt Puriwat Prapan, and Pvt Singha Onsong.

M79 shellings of the Bangkok Transit System (BTS) skytrain station at Sala Daeng killed one woman, Thanyanant Thaepthong, and wounded 75 other people.

A gun attack on a government checkpoint in front of Krungthai Bank on Silom road caused the death of Cpl Kanpat Lertchanpen.

A gun attack on a checkpoint in front of Ue-Chue Liang building on Rama IV road caused the death of Pol Sgt-Maj Witthaya Promsamlee.

Army Master-Sergeant Pongchalit Pittayanonthakan was killed in an ambush on an army vehicle in front of the Bangkok Bank.

Sgt Anusit Chansaento, a soldier, was killed in an M79 attack on a checkpoint near Lumpini Park.

Kittipong Somsuk, a civilian, was killed by the arson at CentralWorld shopping mall.

Thawatchai Thongmak, a civilian, was killed in an explosion in front of the Big C department store on Ratchadamri road.

Altogether 12 people - soldiers, police and civilians - were killed in attacks by the UDD and supporting elements, Mr Tharit said.

The DSI could not definitely determine whether the deaths of six people were caused by the UDD, its supporting groups, or government authorities.

Of the six, three were found dead with gunshot wounds inside Wat Pathumwanaram. They were Rop Suksathit, Mongkol Khemthong and Suwan Sriraksa.

The three others were Pvt Narongrit Sala, who was shot dead in front of the National Memorial; Mana Rai-at who was found dead with a gunshot wound inside the Dusit Zoo; and Japanese photo-journalist Hiyuki Muramoto who was killed on Din So road.

Mr Tharit said police in areas where the last six deaths occurrd would be asked to reinvestigate to establish whether government authorities were involved, as required by Article 150 of the Criminal Procedure Code.

The DSI is still investigating the death of the 71 others, he said.

So no fingers at army/isoc yet. Only UDD caused them..

Unbelievable (literally)

Reuters journalist may have been killed by Thai troops | Reuters

Reuters journalist may have been killed by Thai troops

https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2010/11/1011.jpg

https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2010/11/1014.jpg

A funeral worker carries flowers in front of the casket of Reuters television cameraman Hiro Muramoto before a wake in Tokyo, April 17, 2010.
Credit: Reuters/Michael Caronna

By Ambika Ahuja
BANGKOK | Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:43am EST

BANGKOK (Reuters) - Reuters cameraman Hiro Muramoto may have been shot by Thai security forces when he was killed during a street protest in April, state investigators said on Tuesday, calling for a new probe into his death.

The statement is the first by Thai investigators to acknowledge that a bullet fired by security forces may have killed the 43-year-old journalist.

"Since there was possible involvement by government officers, we have to start from square one by letting police investigate further," Tharit Pengdith, director general of the Department of Special Investigation, told a news conference.

Muramoto, a Japanese national based in Tokyo with Thomson Reuters, was killed by a high-velocity bullet wound to the chest while covering clashes in Bangkok between anti-government protesters and Thai troops on April 10.

"I hope the investigation can be completed swiftly so that all who care deeply about Hiro Muramoto's death can have clarity about what precisely happened, David Schlesinger, editor-in-chief of Reuters, said in a statement.

"His family and colleagues need to know who was involved and what the circumstances were that led to this tragedy."

Twenty-five people, mostly protesters, were killed on April 10 and hundreds wounded. Television footage showed Thai troops opening fire on protesters, while soldiers came under attack from grenades and black-clad gunmen moved among the demonstrators.

The DSI said Muramoto was among six people whose deaths will be further investigated because it was unclear if he was shot by security forces, protesters or unidentified "armed militants."

The DSI has yet to release findings from its investigation into Muramoto and others killed on April 10 including the source of gunfire, despite intense diplomatic pressure from Japan. It previously said the probe lacked conclusive witness accounts.

"HIGH POSSIBILITY" SHOT BY SECURITY FORCES

"We have been asking the Thai government at all levels, including in meetings between our foreign ministers and through our embassy, to find out the truth," a Japanese foreign ministry official said. "We will continue to call for the truth into what happened with Mr. Muramoto."

A Thai newspaper reported in July that four witnesses told police Muramoto was killed by gunfire from troops, but the DSI denied the report, saying it did not have reliable witnesses to the shooting.

The New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists said in July that Thailand's government had failed to properly investigate the deaths of Muramoto and Italian freelance photographer Fabio Polenghi who was shot dead on May 19 as troops moved in on protesters in Bangkok's commercial district.

The DSI said on Tuesday that it had evidence that 12 people including seven soldiers were killed by supporters of an anti-government "red shirt" protest movement demanding Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva call fresh elections.

A senior police official who asked not to be identified because of the sensitivity of the issue told Reuters on Tuesday that Muramoto was likely caught in a crossfire and there was a "high possibility" that he was shot by the security forces although the case remained inconclusive.

"Given the line of fire and eyewitness accounts, there is a high possibility but this is in no way conclusive which is why we need further investigation," the official said.

(Editing by Jason Szep and Andrew Marshall)

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2010...-30142435.html

Reds, ‘men in black’ involved in eight cases of deaths, four unknown: DSI

By Piyanuch Thamnukasetchai
Pongphon Sarnsamak
The Nation
Published on November 17, 2010

There are eight cases of deaths during the anti-government protests from March to May involving the red shirts and the “men in black”, while the cause of deaths in four other cases is unknown but they could have resulted from a crackdown by security forces, the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) said yesterday.

The deaths caused by red shirts include the killing of five soldiers at Khok Wua Intersection on April 10, an M79 attack on Silom Skytrain station, which killed one woman, two drive-by shootings in which two policemen were killed, an ambush on a military vehicle that saw one soldier killed, and an M79 attack near Lumpini Park in which one soldier died.

Included in the eight cases is an arson attack on CentralWorld, in which one person was killed, and a post-protest bomb attack in front of Big C Rajdamri that killed a man, said DSI Director-General Tharit Phengdit.

The deaths in four cases possibly involving security forces are: three deaths in Wat Pathum Wanaram, out of a total of six in the temple compound; the death of Private Narongrit Sala, who was shot dead on Vibhavadi Rangsit highway; the death of Japanese photographer Hiroyuki Muramoto; and the death of a Suan Dusit zoo guard.

The DSI will cease further investigation into those four cases for a 30-day period, pending mandatory autopsy results from local police.

There are no details of the three remaining deaths in the temple and a DSI investigation is underway. The three deaths in the temple implicating security forces come from a trajectory study indicating that the bullets that killed them were fired from “declined angles” which is consistent with Army snipers and soldiers who were positioned on the elevated BTS track overlooking the temple.

The DSI is dealing with 254 cases involving 89 deaths. The killings on April 10 included that of Colonel Romklao Thuwatham.

Payao Akkahad, whose daughter Kamolkade a paramedic was killed in Wat Prathum Wanaram on May 19, said there were still no clear answers or progress in the DSI investigation into her daughter’s death.

She called on the DSI to release the probe results on a case-by-case basis of the deaths that occurred on April 10 and during the May violence. However, Payao said she would hold a news conference over the DSI’s autopsy report on her daughter’s death.

Meanwhile, Banjerd Fungklinchan, whose 29-year-old son Therdsakwas was killed at Khok Wua Intersection, said he did not believe the DSI’s autopsy reports.

“I want the DSI to release the results of the investigation into my son’s death, as he was shot in his chest with six bullets. The DSI knows who killed him,” he said.

Thai security forces investigating themselves. Hardly likely to find themselves guilty of murder are they?
Its a waste of time even debating their findings. Stalling and gobbledygook are standard practice in these sorts of matters in Thailand. Laughable to even take the findings of these government sponsored investigations seriously.
Without an independent judicary there can be no checks and balances to rein in the political/military excesses.

It is a waste of time in that the junta heve the guns and have already shown in the murder of the 90 odd innocent protesters , they are prepared to use em.
However the real key to all this is the documenting and evidence collecting of the juntas crimes.
Whether it takes 1 year or 20 years the criminals will answer to that recorded evidence.

LooseBowels, when have any of the previous juntas crimes been actioned on? The military are above the law and can attribute any death to Men in Black, suicide, or if there is no body, then they have gone off with another girl. Silly prix such as TH and BF will of course fall in line with the self appointed verdicts.

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Originally Posted by Mr Lick

It's always better that we stick to the facts and get a little less emotional about the government and red shirts.

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The bit I underlined is humour, right? This entire thread is about lies and distortion by the junta. You have bought into this idea (you work within the frame of the blend)...

Recently, I've been doing some research on conceptional blending, and I suggest you get hold of a 2002 edition by Fauconnier & Turner - it's an excellent and approachable read. On pages 27/28 they give an example of the abuse of blends for propaganda purposes; their example is about genocide... I quote a line or two: "mass killings of certain groups of people can be blended with ordinary bureaucratic frames to produce a blended concept of genocide as a bureaucratic operation. Because the projection to the blend is only partial, people who could not bring themselves to operate in the frame of genocide may find themselves operating comfortably in the blend." Basically, they're explaining how propaganda works, they add diagrams and full empirical explanations, etc. We retort back to the Nazis because they were so very good at this; the current junta are doing the same. By blending the input 'terrorists' with the 'red shirt political protestors' they can map certain attributes that don't exist in one input upon the other input; this happens in the blend. It's not rocket science, it's propaganda, and it's evil.

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Originally Posted by Bettyboo

.... It's not rocket science, it's propaganda, and it's evil.

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But for you, it is only evil when you judge the government to be indulging in it.

Why do not chose to read Robert Amsterdam's (and his paid lackey sabang) writing in the same critical light?

Why is it not evil when you indulge in the same blending when posting about the current goverment?

TH

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bettyboo

The DSI are a tool of CRES who are a branch of ISOC.

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Thailand is being held back by it's Military, in a sleazy alliance with a backwards looking, corrupt section of it's self styled, self appointed 'elite' (they are anything but).

It is as simple as that. They have to be expelled from politics- once again, it is as simple as that. The extant question is the Means, and I can only hope common sense prevails, because the alternatives are not very pleasant- although I would have little empathy for the victims of their own stupidity.

What has always seemed remarkable to me about Thailand- compared to other places that boast equally incompetent and bigoted 'elite' sectors, is the sheer blatancy of the Lies here. It is really quite laughable. Don't they realise people have mobile phones these days?

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Originally Posted by Thaihome

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bettyboo

.... It's not rocket science, it's propaganda, and it's evil.

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But for you, it is only evil when you judge the government to be indulging in it.

Why do not chose to read Robert Amsterdam's (and his paid lackey sabang) writing in the same critical light?

Why is it not evil when you indulge in the same blending when posting about the current goverment?

TH

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A very good point, I wonder if you'll get an answer....?

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Originally Posted by sabang

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bettyboo

The DSI are a tool of CRES who are a branch of ISOC.

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Thailand is being held back by it's Military, in a sleazy alliance with a backwards looking, corrupt section of it's self styled, self appointed 'elite' (they are anything but).

It is as simple as that. They have to be expelled from politics- once again, it is as simple as that. The extant question is the Means, and I can only hope common sense prevails, because the alternatives are not very pleasant- although I would have little empathy for the victims of their own stupidity.

What has always seemed remarkable to me about Thailand- compared to other places that boast equally incompetent and bigoted 'elite' sectors, is the sheer blatancy of the Lies here. It is really quite laughable. Don't they realise people have mobile phones these days?

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No one cares among the elite. That's it.

Thinking that they do is foolish.

They appear to be unusually free of such hindrances as embarrassment, honour, integrity and empathy/conscience.

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Originally Posted by Thaihome

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bettyboo

.... It's not rocket science, it's propaganda, and it's evil.

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But for you, it is only evil when you judge the government to be indulging in it.

Why do not chose to read Robert Amsterdam's (and his paid lackey sabang) writing in the same critical light?

Why is it not evil when you indulge in the same blending when posting about the current goverment?

TH

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Ignorant, ill-informed and untrue. Nobody on these boards was more vocal against MrT than I.

More relevent: we could highlight the fact that Robert Amsterdam isn't killing political protestors with sniper fire, or forcing an army rule upon a nation, etc, closing down other people's politcal voice, controlling the mass media, Goebbels style, but this would be missed on a blinkered horse such as yourself...

As for SD, supporting your ridiculous statement, well...

You say a lot of stupid things, but this is right up there with some of your best.

^
Correction: more like PAID blinkered horse..

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Originally Posted by Bettyboo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thaihome

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bettyboo

.... It's not rocket science, it's propaganda, and it's evil.

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But for you, it is only evil when you judge the government to be indulging in it.

Why do not chose to read Robert Amsterdam's (and his paid lackey sabang) writing in the same critical light?

Why is it not evil when you indulge in the same blending when posting about the current goverment?

TH

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Ignorant, ill-informed and untrue. Nobody on these boards was more vocal against MrT than I.

More relevent: we could highlight the fact that Robert Amsterdam isn't killing political protestors with sniper fire, or forcing an army rule upon a nation, etc, closing down other people's politcal voice, controlling the mass media, Goebbels style, but this would be missed on a blinkered horse such as yourself...

As for SD, supporting your ridiculous statement, well...

You say a lot of stupid things, but this is right up there with some of your best.

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Hardly, I don't recall seeing much from you criticising pieces that are anti-government or pro-red...I post plenty. Where's your analysis of those?

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Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

^
Correction: more like PAID blinkered horse..

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Paid? Please explain...

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Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sabang

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bettyboo

The DSI are a tool of CRES who are a branch of ISOC.

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Thailand is being held back by it's Military, in a sleazy alliance with a backwards looking, corrupt section of it's self styled, self appointed 'elite' (they are anything but).

It is as simple as that. They have to be expelled from politics- once again, it is as simple as that. The extant question is the Means, and I can only hope common sense prevails, because the alternatives are not very pleasant- although I would have little empathy for the victims of their own stupidity.

What has always seemed remarkable to me about Thailand- compared to other places that boast equally incompetent and bigoted 'elite' sectors, is the sheer blatancy of the Lies here. It is really quite laughable. Don't they realise people have mobile phones these days?

---

No one cares among the elite. That's it.

Thinking that they do is foolish.

They appear to be unusually free of such hindrances as embarrassment, honour, integrity and empathy/conscience.

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Oh but an increasing number of ordinary Thais DO CARE about the social injustice and extraordinary privileges enjoyed by the elite at the expense of the masses. Its not something any ordinary Thai would talk about openly now for fear of attracting government/military attention. But come election day they will have their say at the ballot box.

The complacency of the elite class is borne out of a reliance on a corrupt judicary (which is part of their own system) and military muscle to suppress and oppress their detractors.

Things are not as they were before however, with a dumbed down peasant majority silently subservient to their elite Chinese/Thai masters.

The peasants are getting educated and wiser. They are starting to ask for more social/political justice.
The complacency and arrogance of the elite may well turn out to be their undoing in the end if they continue to hold down the masses through use of force rather than gradually relinquishing their hold on power through the democratic process.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

^
Correction: more like PAID blinkered horse..

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Paid? Please explain...

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I wonder why you did not ask the question for this post by Thaihome. Must be your superior neutrality.

Quote:

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Why do not chose to read Robert Amsterdam's (and his paid lackey sabang) writing in the same critical light?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Takeovers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

^
Correction: more like PAID blinkered horse..

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Paid? Please explain...

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I wonder why you did not ask the question for this post by Thaihome. Must be your superior neutrality.

Quote:

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Why do not chose to read Robert Amsterdam's (and his paid lackey sabang) writing in the same critical light?

---

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Fair question.
SD plays the role of the independent reporter, but his yellow/elite/military bias shows through occasionally.

As for Thaiholmes assertion that Sabang is somehow in the pay of whoever,
-- just a desperate attempt to divert attention from the discussion and smear an opponent. Weak as piss.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Panda

SD plays the role of the independent reporter, but his yellow/elite/military bias shows through occasionally.

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Yes...just occasionally.:mid::rolleyes: