https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...hi-deaths.html
The above post at least needs to be referenced here, as this thread is the most complete accounting.
Printable View
https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...hi-deaths.html
The above post at least needs to be referenced here, as this thread is the most complete accounting.
I'd really like to know why the St Onge family cremated Jill's body so quickly.. What kind of coroner would allow a body to be cremated under such circumstances - A Thai coroner ..
Did the US Embassy advise otherwise?
God- damn it, some shit went on in the Phi Phi /Phuket region last summer St Onge, Bergheim in Phi Phi , The German man in Phuket, the Kuwait woman who took a day trip to Phi Phi returned to Phuket and died... Assorted bodies washing up, stranglings , shootings, C'mon, has it always been this.... deathly ?
Tourist, Beware !
Text of article ref above ^ post
https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...hi-deaths.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Norway's Professors Pursue Phi Phi Killer Riddle
By Alan Morison and Chutima Sidasathian
Wednesday, October 7, 2009
Laleena Phi Phi Photo Album Above
Norway's Professors Pursue Phi Phi Killer Riddle - Phuket Wan
THE BEST forensic scientists in Norway are now trying to solve the year's most mystifying puzzle: what caused the sudden deaths of two young women tourists who occupied adjoining rooms in a guesthouse on Phi Phi, a tropical island paradise.
Two Scandinavian professors are attempting to put the pieces in place to resolve a mystery half a world away, a riddle that has so far eluded the best scientific endeavors Thailand can muster.
It's unusual to have scientists from one country become so deeply involved in a police case in another country. But then, the Phi Phi deaths are, as far as Phuketwan is able to tell, unique.
How did they die? Why did they die? These are questions that so far have no answers.
Norway is a relatively large country with a small-population, a nation that takes precious pride in maintaining a sense of community.
Life is treasured. Such is the level of concern about what took place involving Julie Bergheim at the Laleena Guesthouse on Phi Phi back in May that Norway decided on a diplomatically unconventional response.
With one or two possible exceptions, everybody wants the case solved. Norwegian Julie Bergheim, 22, and an American, Jill St Onge, 27, were young women in the prime of their lives before that strange weekend in paradise.
The family of the American woman is just as keen to have the case solved as Julie Bergheim's family. After all, Jill St Onge was on what amounted to a pre-nuptials honeymoon with her husband to be, Ryan Kells, when they both fell ill at Laleena.
The difference is a vital one. The Norwegian scientists have a body. The Americans do not.
In the aftermath of the two sudden deaths on Phi Phi, the bodies of both women were taken to Bangkok, and subjected to autopsies. Jill St Onge was cremated soon after at a Buddhist temple. Julie Bergheim was transported home.
Phuketwan has been led to believe that officials at the Norwegian embassy in Bangkok, where the ambassador and staff never give journalists any information, actually played a key role in orchestrating the second autopsy.
THE EMAIL was short and to the point: ''You are correctly informed that I, together with a colleague professor of forensic medicine, have been given the task to perform a second autopsy on the deceased in question, which has been done. The case is not yet concluded, but even when it is, we shall not be allowed to disclose the results to anybody else than Norwegian Police.
''Sincerely yours
Kari Ormstad,
professor of forensic medicine, MD, PhD''
And that was that. Our follow-up email, requesting the name of the other professor and the date of the second autopsy, brought no response.
Public Prosecutor Sjak Haaheim was a little more forthcoming when we telephoned. He knows that the practice of starting a second inquiry into a police case in another country is highly unusual.
As the leading prosecutor in Julie Bergheim's home county, it was his approval that was required for a second investigation, more properly called a ''survey,'' to commence.
Did it come because of the large groundswell of interest in solving a case involving a young Norwegian traveller, that national sense of community? Probably.
''My decision,'' Mr Haaheim tells us, ''was strongly motivated by the wishes of the family.
''We are not in any way putting a case for doubt on the Thai autopsy. It is just a second opinion. I decided there was a need to open a 'survey' case.''
The two forensic science professors performed the autopsy in June and have been working towards a set of findings ever since. The findings, says Mr Haaheim, will be presented to the family first, then made public.
Results may be sent back to the Thai authorities ''through diplomatic channels.'' At this stage, exactly what the reaction might be among the Thai investigators can only be the subject of speculation.
Of the four people who fell ill that weekend at Laleena Guesthouse, two are dead. Ryan Kells has told his version of events in an online blog.
He maintains that he noticed a chemical smell when he and Miss St Onge checked in that Saturday. He believes a gas made them both sick, and killed Miss Onge.
The other person with first-hand experience of what happened is Miss Bergheim's 19-year-old friend, another Norwegian, who also fell ill and only recovered after treatment in intensive care.
She has never given a public account of what happened. Mr Haaheim says he considered interviewing the woman, but it was decided that her privacy and her wishes should be respected.
What the 'survey' team has that the Thai investigators did not have is access to Norwegian medical records and, Mr Haaheim says, ''other information.''
SO THERE are three pockets of concern, spread across the globe, as the investigation remains at a standstill in Thailand and the 'survey' continues in Norway.
From the western seaboard of America, the Onge family has made it known online that they were not happy with the Thai autopsy report, which consisted of just three pages when they were expecting about 20. The material had to be translated into English first at the US Embassy in Bangkok, another time-consuming element in the process.
Some of the documents are confusing. This is especially the case with results of an ''environmental quality test'' made on June 13, six weeks after the deaths, that showed the presence of several gases in samples taken from Room 6 at Laleena Guesthouse at 1.35pm, but nothing in a slightly different test at 1.43pm.
The owner of the guesthouse, Rat Chuped, still maintains that there was nothing in her establishment capable of causing death.
She has no explanation for the illness that struck four healthy young people in adjoining Rooms 4 and 5 that May weekend.
Tourists are back now, staying in those same rooms, as if nothing unusual ever happened. Phi Phi is about an hour by ferry from Phuket, and the number of visitors is beginning to rise now for the holiday high season.
Phuketwan Latest Phuket News
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Thanks Phuket Wan for staying on this.
I'll be visiting Phi Phi really soon....does anyone know where laleena guesthouse is located?
Nov 16, 2009
Phuketwan Update
Norwegian forensic scientists are continuing to probe the cause of death of Julie Bergheim, the young tourist who died with American Jill St Onge in mysterious circumstances on Phi Phi in May. Thai police were unable to determine the cause of death of the two, who stayed in adjoining rooms at Laleena Guesthouse. The Norwegians held a second autopsy on Miss Bergheim and are continuing a painstaking hunt for indicators.
How long does this fcuking take?? Are they doing the usual thing by fcuking around and hopefully it will get swept under the carpet..... Thai police are a joke:mid:Quote:
Originally Posted by guyinthailand
Update from a Norwegian newspaper. Directly translated in Google translate..
Researcher: - Died of insecticide
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2011/05/1480.jpg
CHECKING THE SITE: Police Detective Raiwint Manekeend examining the room where Norwegian Julie Michelle Bergheim (22) lived on Phi Phi. She died suddenly here in 2009.
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2011/05/1481.jpg
Died suddenly: Julie Michelle Bergheim (22) died suddenly on Phi Phi. Scientist believe that toxic pesticides are the cause
The researcher Ron McDowall said the Norwegian student Julie Michelle Bergheim (22) died of a toxic insecticide in Thailand two years ago.
Sunday 3 May 2009, 22 year old Julie Michelle Bergheim from Drammen and her girlfriend (20) found in acutely ill at the guest house Laleena on Phi Phi Island in Thailand.
The night after Julie died, while her friend was discharged from hospital several days later. In addition, killing American Jill St. Onge (27) who lived in the same guesthouse that fateful weekend.
Two years later, Thai police are still without a clear cause of death.
Blacklisted
Now, however, chemical researcher Ron McDowall from New Zealand examined samples from a hotel in Chiang Mai province in Thailand where New Zealander Sarah Carter (23) died under mysterious circumstances earlier this year.
According to the researcher, the results show traces of the poisonous insect agent "chlorpyrifos, used against pests that are banned in several countries.
According to The Dominion Post examines the police in Thailand of the poisonous insect agent might have caused the death of Julie Michelle Bergheim.
U.S. investigators have previously suspected that toxic chemicals may be causing the deaths of Julie and Jill, but Thai authorities have lost all the samples that were taken.
- I believe there is a clear connection between these two deaths, and that they died of an excessive exposure of the drug, says a researcher and consultant Ron McDowall in hazardous chemicals at the UN Food and Agriculture Organization to VG.
Several have died
McDowall surveys were done under the auspices of the program "60 Minutes" in New Zealand, and he believes that the symptoms, including vomiting, the fatalities are identical - among seven other tourists who have died under similar circumstances in Thailand in recent years.
- I think it's coincidence and bad luck for the hotels, "said provincial governor of Chiang Mai, the TV channel.
The researcher in turn justify their statements that it has found traces of the deadly agent in the rooms of the victims several months after the deaths. This despite the fact that the rooms have been washed.
- Even a small mistake in dosage can be fatal, and victims' reaction shows that the insect agent is the cause. The symptoms are the same and show that the agent was present in the room, "said McDowall, who has received wide support from chemistry colleagues in Italy.
Mother: - I think that's right
The mother of Julie Michelle Bergheim (22) believe the researcher from New Zealand has solved the mystery of death.
- I have always had a theory that she died of a type of gas or poison. She was never in the same places or ate the same food that the American girl, "said 22-year-old mother, Ina Thoresen told VG.
The mother said she has been informed that there were traces of poison in the room where her daughter lived three months after the tragedy, which is not mentioned in the police report that the family has had access to.
- Two autopsy reports stating what it is not. Poison leave the body after a while and when treated with oxygen as was the case with Julie. I think really that the new information is correct, "says Thoresen.
It is not surprising they found traces of Chlorpyrifos in the room. The stuff is the most widely used insecticide in the world. Chlorpyrifos may have been the culprit--I've said all along insecticides were at top of suspicion list--BUT...Nope, can't be from the sheets, the air or the walls. It takes 4 ounces (at least) on the skin of an adult to kill so the sheets would have had to have been soaked in the stuff. Soaked. And they would have had to have gotten the entire 4 ounces squeezed out of the sheets and onto just one body. Sorry, this 'sheet theory' doesn't wash.
Plus there are very few--if any--cases of sudden deaths in the scientific literature resulting from dermal (skin) exposure.
"Chlorpyrifos is the world's leading insecticide in volume terms(2). The acute oral LD50 (the Lethal Dose required to kill half of a population of laboratory test animals) for chlorpyrifos is between 135-165 mg/kg for rats(7). The dermal LD50 for chlorpyrifos in male and female rats is greater than 2,000 mg/kg. It is classified by the World Health Organisation as a Class II, 'moderately hazardous' pesticide(8)." http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles...rifos-ext.html
and
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Actives/chlorpyr.htm
So you can see that the dose needed to kill by dermal (skin) is 2,000 mg per kg body weight, which is equal to 2 grams per kg body weight. Chiang Mai victims weighed, let's say, around 60 kg each, so to die from skin exposure they would have needed to have had 120 grams poured on them--about four ounces.
But to die from oral exposure one only need 135 mg per kg or about 7 grams total to kill 50% of a any 60kg group exposed. A teaspoon of the stuff will weigh close to 7 grams so I would indeed like to see the fatuous governor or Chiang Mai, the idiot who has already said the 7 Chiang Mai deaths (see link below) are coincidences and who now says he will eat a "spoon" of it--I'd very much like to see him eat a teaspoon of chlorpyrifos while the cameras are rolling so we can determine if he is in the 50% that will live but get extremely sick, or in the group of 50% that will die. And if he uses a TABLEspoon instead of a teaspoon? His contortions and writhing and foaming at the mouth and respiratory arrest will make fantastic viewing on websites.
"The 4-hour inhalation LC50 (lethal concentration) for chlorpyrifos in rats is greater than 200 mg/m3. Three hundred and nineteen human exposure incidents were reported by the Pesticide Incident Monitoring System (PIMS) from 1970 through 1981, most resulting from inhalation and dermal exposure. Three human deaths were caused by chlorpyrifos" Chlorpyrifos
200mg/sq meter in a 5x5x3 hotel room would mean a 15 gram cloud of the stuff would have to be hanging around the room for four hours. So very doubtful the just suddenly dropped dead from breathing the stuff.
So you can see that out of the 319 exposures reported in 11 years in this one study, there were 3 deaths from the stuff even though most of the reported exposures were by inhalation and dermal exposure. (and the three deaths may have been from ingestion--study doesn't say). There aren't too many cases (or any) of sudden deaths from inhalation just as there aren't many sudden deaths from dermal exposure because you need so much of the stuff to die by these routes. Many people made really sick by skin exposure and breathing? Sure. But not sudden deaths by skin or breathing it.
To reliably and quickly die from the stuff you have to eat only about a teaspoon of it. Not hard to slip a teaspoon of the stuff into an exotic drink or dish at a crowded market.
Plus, chlorpyrifos is sprayed all over the world in vast quantities and you never hear about people healthy one minute and dead the next who lay on some sheets or breathed some of it.
Plus, the Chiang Mai victims were staying in three or four different hotels, making it even more unlikely for skin exposure or breathing exposure.
Plus, I read--but haven't confirmed--that chlorpyrifos really stinks and, if this is true, probably would have been noticed if in the air or on the sheets.("Chlorpyrifos has a mild mercaptan (thiol) odor, similar to the smell of sulfur compounds found in rotten eggs, onions, garlic and skunks")
The poison doesn't have to be chlorpyrifos, which apparently does have a smell---but, then again, if a little tiny teaspoon of it were put in a giant tropical drink or a spicy, garlic, onion dish---would you notice? At any rate, there are hundreds of pesticides many of them odorless and colorless.
But drink a tiny amount of the stuff and you're a 'gonner' quickly.
Let's all quit pretending that Thailand is the only country in the world without serial killers. Just because you don't hear about them in the Thai media only means the Thais don't do thorough investigations and, if they were to actually find one who was killing tourists, would be very likely to cover it up. To rule out a serial killer without a full investigation is a mistake no Western detective would make--unless the evidence was overwhelming.
To read about the other, more recent, suspicious deaths (from Chiang Mai) that fit the pattern of these Koh Phi Phi victims go here:
http://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asia-news/86865-nz-woman-thailand-food-poisoning-death.htm
So what's your theory about healthy 22 dying ?
Hi -first post .. I have been following the story about Downtown Inn deaths,and my suspicions were raised when I became aware of the political connections of the owner of Downtown Inn Chiang Mai, i.e. ex Major and ex Thai Rak Thai Chiang Mai where Taksin comes from,and where he has most support.There are further political connections if you consider King Bhumibols 2006 award given to Andrew Liveris,the CEO of Dow Chemicals (manufacturer of Chlorpyrifos) and that Liveris is backer of both Hilary Clinton/Obama......I also remembered the reports of a group of redshirts being rushed to hospital at ratchaprasong last year with similar symptons,and not forgeting Cambodia's claim that Thailand fired chemical weapons,a month after the Thai military admitted to using cluster bombs.Does anyone know about the Laleena guest house manager.Am I right in thinking he was a muslim ?...has he any possible political connections,or problems with the Thai military...?
dee123, you 'connections' are a little bizarre, to say the least. You are connecting the deaths to Taksin? Wow, I am no great detractor of his, but pinning these deaths on him, as you seem to insinuate, is just weird.
^^ Tin foil hat time....
Could this be a case of improper treatment on mattress's for bed bugs?
Some chemicals can be deadly when used indoors.:spin:
^ well done, sherlock.
I've seen this topic since 2009, but only just read through. I was violently sick and shitting at the same time and this was in Mindanao, Philippines. I too was fine after that bout, once i got it out of my system.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristySweet
I too complained about my food. Took 30 mins to get me a beer. I was the only person in the restaurant
So you you go to Lake Sebu, don't winge
:rolleyes:
First post, yes...hmmmmmmmmm...ok....not sure what to ask really but the "fisrt question" I have is...Quote:
Originally Posted by dee123
WTF are you talking about? :rofl:
Second question is....
Do you abuse substances on a regular basis? :confused:
Last and "Final question....
you're not related to "Butterfly" are you? maybe his Siamese twin? :rolleyes:
p.s. You have until May 21st to answer these questions!
I think this is very interesting and well may be pertinent.Quote:
Originally Posted by dee123
Ha HaQuote:
Originally Posted by guyinthailand
And a TV team taking samples 3 months later really is nonconclusive. I must agree;
Case is not solved.
No one is shitting, that's pathogenic and what differentiates this illness as an ingested poison is extreme vomiting.Quote:
Originally Posted by WujouMao
V I S I N E
Look at the victims ..IN CM 2 men and 9 women, 8 of whom are young and pretty. What are the odds?
GiT I don't even think death is the goal, maybe just casual anger management issues toward young western, attractive women.
Gee who'd be like that in Thailand?
Oh well, case closed.Quote:
Originally Posted by spark
I agree with you that anger toward Western women may be at the root of these poisoning deaths. I don't think these deaths will be the last by this killer(s), if indeed there is a killer.Quote:
Originally Posted by KAPPA
Visine eye drops taken internally are an interesting suggestion. But it seems improbable given that
"So is all this reporting of tetrahydrozoline toxicity fact or fiction? How can this teeny tiny ½ ounce bottle of eye drops whose active ingredient is in a teeny weenie concentration of 0.05% cause such mayhem? When used, “only as directed,” tetrahydrozoline is an effective medication which shrinks blood vessels thus alleviating reddened “bloodshot” eyes. If taken internally, however, this drug acts like a potent high blood pressure medicine. Symptoms reported in both children and adults who have swallowed some of these eye care products either by accident or via malicious activity include marked drowsiness, low blood pressure, slowed heart rate, and possibly even coma and impaired breathing. Quantities as low as ½ to 1½ teaspoonfuls (approximately 1/6 to ½ of a half ounce bottle) have caused pronounced reactions in small children. Toxic affects following tetrahydrozoline ingestion can be serious and at times require close observation and treatment in an intensive care setting. Fortunately, no deaths have been reported." http://ipcblog.org/2010/03/02/tetrah...2%AE%E2%80%9D/
all the other excuses put forth for the CHIANG MAI victims--coxsackie virus, echovirus, e.coli, toxic seaweed, toxic fish, 'regular' food poisoning, air conditioner, swimming pool or insecticide poisoning via skin or lungs----none of those withstand close scrutiny. (but the PHI PHI deaths do suggest the possibility of something in the adjoining rooms). I am 'pushing' the murder theory based on my knowledge of routine murder and mayhem in Thailand that never gets caught much less punished and also basing it on the symptoms & circumstances of Chiang Mai victims, which, at this point, ONLY match INGESTION of insecticides. I am 'pushing' the murder theory so that this THEORY gets investigated, because no good investigator would rule it out unless the evidence were overwhelming to rule it out. There may be another viable possible cause put forth soon, but up until this date, the ONLY thing that 'fits' (so far) for the CHIANG MAI VICTIMS is INGESTION of pesticides.
I have been following this,and I tend to agree.I don't believe you could die that quick after sleeping in sheets with dried pesticides.I am out of my expertise on this,but I spent 8 years at the CDC in Atlanta,Ga.My father was a research microbiologist for 35 years at CDC.I am going to forward to him all the information I can get on this.We can get an opinion from an expert in this area,if not from my father,from one of his colleagues.Quote:
Originally Posted by guyinthailandI agree with you that anger toward Western women may be at the root of these poisoning deaths. I don't think these deaths will be the last by this killer(s), if indeed there is a killer.Quote:
Originally Posted by KAPPA
Visine eye drops taken internally are an interesting suggestion. But it seems improbable given that
"So is all this reporting of tetrahydrozoline toxicity fact or fiction? How can this teeny tiny ½ ounce bottle of eye drops whose active ingredient is in a teeny weenie concentration of 0.05% cause such mayhem? When used, “only as directed,” tetrahydrozoline is an effective medication which shrinks blood vessels thus alleviating reddened “bloodshot” eyes. If taken internally, however, this drug acts like a potent high blood pressure medicine. Symptoms reported in both children and adults who have swallowed some of these eye care products either by accident or via malicious activity include marked drowsiness, low blood pressure, slowed heart rate, and possibly even coma and impaired breathing. Quantities as low as ½ to 1½ teaspoonfuls (approximately 1/6 to ½ of a half ounce bottle) have caused pronounced reactions in small children. Toxic affects following tetrahydrozoline ingestion can be serious and at times require close observation and treatment in an intensive care setting. Fortunately, no deaths have been reported." Illinois Poison Center Blog
all the other excuses put forth for the CHIANG MAI victims--coxsackie virus, echovirus, e.coli, toxic seaweed, toxic fish, 'regular' food poisoning, air conditioner, swimming pool or insecticide poisoning via skin or lungs----none of those withstand close scrutiny. (but the PHI PHI deaths do suggest the possibility of something in the adjoining rooms). I am 'pushing' the murder theory based on my knowledge of routine murder and mayhem in Thailand that never gets caught much less punished and also basing it on the symptoms & circumstances of Chiang Mai victims, which, at this point, ONLY match INGESTION of insecticides. I am 'pushing' the murder theory so that this THEORY gets investigated, because no good investigator would rule it out unless the evidence were overwhelming to rule it out. There may be another viable possible cause put forth soon, but up until this date, the ONLY thing that 'fits' (so far) for the CHIANG MAI VICTIMS is INGESTION of pesticides.
Many years ago in Thailand I wanted some poison to kill a bees nest, so off I went to my local building supplies place, they handed me a can of powder which said on the can it was 99 percent cyanide, obviously I didn't buy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by scrapmetalband
That would be Calcium Cyanide Ca(CN)2.If handeled properly it's quite safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtydog
hi all, just to throw in a bit of my own experience, in 1988 i bought an old house in u.k. with loads of exposed beams, you know the type, anyhow, the building society held a bit of the mortgage advance back until i treated the beams and got a certificate from rentokill
about the same time i started to see reports in u.k. press about mysterious deaths linked to woodworm treatment in old houses, did a bit of research and the amount of deaths was frightening
one concerned a group of terraced houses in london that had all the lofts treated, the building inspector from the council examined them and the next day was in intensive care, died a few days later, another sad case was of a child that died in a room that had been treated and the mother let the younger brother occupy the room and he too died soon after, awful
anyhow they tied it down to a chemical called lindane as the culprit
needless to say i rang the building society and told them to keep the bloody money as i was not prepared to do the treatment, too bloody scared , i spoke to rentahill at one point and asked them to give me a list of chemicals used in their woodworm treatment, they refused
a year later i saw on the news that a large barrel of a deadly chemical had fallen of a ship in the channel and the royal navy was mobilised to search for it, i knew in my heart what it was, and a few days later it was found and reported as lindane
some of these chemicals in daily use are deadly but good money earners, such is life
^ 'lindane' is the principal ingredient in many rodent poisons marketed in Thailand. These products, I am told, are often used to commit suicide; mixed with Thai whiskey and downed while purposely already intoxicated, death is all but assured.