Thread: Phuket expat left heartbroken after wife runs off with B2mn and house

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Section 1469. Any agreement concluded between husband and wife during marriage may be avoided by either of them at any time during marriage or within one year from the day of dissolution of marriage; provided that the right of third persons acting in good faith are not affected thereby.

which means a usufruct is not worth the paper it is written on.

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Originally Posted by kingwilly

I find it difficult to feel sorry for these guys.

You are a hard man kw. I still think we* are all two or three bad decisions away from a total f*ck up.

* well, "we" as in normal fallible human beings - and I include myself in that. My money is outside thailand, I trust my missus - but you get blind sided by stuff you don;t see, not stuff you do.

You don't have to make bad decisions on your own, brokers investment consultants and banks can do it for you.

Many sad story's here, but believe if you would not do something in your home country, why do it here.

Most of the sad tales are from people who had good job, were grown men, that thought they were smarter than the Thais.

Feel empathy for their loss, but little sympathy, they knew the risks, played the game and lost.
Happens everywhere in the world, girls, gambling, share and investments. Jim

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Originally Posted by kingwilly

I find it difficult to feel sorry for these guys.

You are a hard man kw. I still think we* are all two or three bad decisions away from a total f*ck up.

* well, "we" as in normal fallible human beings - and I include myself in that. My money is outside thailand, I trust my missus - but you get blind sided by stuff you don;t see, not stuff you do.

I hear you, I think I didn't quite phrase what I meant correctly.

It was a "I suppose I should feel sorry for this guy, but the cynical, heard the thai sob story 1001 times part of me is not really letting me feel any/much sympathy for him."

Of course, as someone mentioned, it could be a legitimate, loving long term relationship between equals in which she turned nasty and blind sided him.

In which case, I'm wrong and I'll be the first to admit it.
My comment was more a wonder at my own lack of empathy than a judgment on him.

Live and learn, huh?

Know who you marry beforehand.....such problems can be avoided.
Disconnected Farang.

Originally Posted by kingwilly

Of course, as someone mentioned, it could be a legitimate, loving long term relationship between equals in which she turned nasty and blind sided him.

What seems to happen, only too often, is that the Farang meets a Thai lady who has little or no money. The lady finds said Farang irresistably attractive and marries him.

They marry and in order to buy property, a car and whatever, the Farang transfers large sums of money into the wife's name, and in some cases everything he has.

Stripped of all his money the Farang is no longer attractive, BUT his wife has become attractive to Thai men.

Hence Farang is left alone and penniless whilst ex-wife toddles off with a man she has more in common with.

I've watched this happen to an American in recent years and the Thai women involved don't see anything wrong at all. Seems he can just go back "home" and make another pile of money.

....at 63 y/o

Bee : honey

Thai : money

No money, no honey.

Does anyone here know this guy?

Maybe he was a complete utter wife-beating bastard. But as these news items leaves us open to too much speculation because we don't know all sides to the story (his side, her side and the truth) then let's just naturally assume it's the Thais fault.

Originally Posted by Rural Surin

Live and learn, huh?

Know who you marry beforehand.....such problems can be avoided.
Disconnected Farang.

Great advice from someone with 4 ex wives

sad stuff for sure but shit happens...ex walked away with nearly half a million bucks ..me ....spent my bit on new wife,house and farm and yacht..if she took it all think I would not bother sitting in the middle of a road ..maybe railroad tracks?

The only problem I see here is the way the laws are setup in this country.
The laws favor the Thai person. Keep the bulk of your assets outside of Thailand.
I find it much easier to sleep at night.

Originally Posted by mike123ca

The only problem I see here is the way the laws are setup in this country.
The laws favor the Thai person. Keep the bulk of your assets outside of Thailand.
I find it much easier to sleep at night.

I tend to agree. I bought little into the country, and live on what I make here - the bulk is outside.

Not a case of not trusting the missus by any means - but don't get me started on the rest of the clan......

If they were married then what about a divorce settlement? Although he cannot legally own land in Thailand, he can still claim half of everything they had during the marriage.

He will have to pay 2% of the claim up front plus solicitor costs....

Originally Posted by Troy

If they were married then what about a divorce settlement? Although he cannot legally own land in Thailand, he can still claim half of everything they had during the marriage.

He will have to pay 2% of the claim up front plus solicitor costs....

Divorce settlement would depend on what he signed to try and get ownership of the house. If some of the documents signed are false declarations you may be looking a jail time.

Of course there is the catch all clause in the Land code.

It is illegal for an alien to give a Thai national money to buy land for an aliens use.

Sure you would find lawyers that will take the case, but doubt you would find one that would take it on a no win no pay plan. Jim

Originally Posted by jamescollister

It is illegal for an alien to give a Thai national money to buy land for an aliens use.

I think you are simplifying the rules a little too much with this statement. There are several "escape clauses" for someone to make a "gift" to set up a home and settle down with their spouse and take back a "gift" if a marriage goes tits up.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Sure you would find lawyers that will take the case, but doubt you would find one that would take it on a no win no pay plan. Jim

I'm not suggesting a no-win, no-pay plan. The cost is 2% of the claim up front win or lose plus solicitors fees (negotiable). The amount that is awarded is up to the court and part of the 2% fee may be refunded depending on how easy it is for the two parties to agree.

Originally Posted by barbaro

she stole his years of EFL savings before they split up.

So he lost about $100 then?

^ Ouch.

Originally Posted by Troy

Originally Posted by jamescollister

It is illegal for an alien to give a Thai national money to buy land for an aliens use.

I think you are simplifying the rules a little too much with this statement. There are several "escape clauses" for someone to make a "gift" to set up a home and settle down with their spouse and take back a "gift" if a marriage goes tits up.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Sure you would find lawyers that will take the case, but doubt you would find one that would take it on a no win no pay plan. Jim

I'm not suggesting a no-win, no-pay plan. The cost is 2% of the claim up front win or lose plus solicitors fees (negotiable). The amount that is awarded is up to the court and part of the 2% fee may be refunded depending on how easy it is for the two parties to agree.

Law reads fairly simple and I wouldn't take it to court.


Land Code.

Land code [and you have not recieved any permission, but you are using for the purpose of home ownership]
Section 89 When an alien has received permission to acquire land for any purpose, he must use the land for that purpose and for no other unless permission is received to use it far another purpose under the limitations of Section 87. If the land is not used a s authorized notice must be given on the forms and following the procedures prescribed in Ministerial Regulations within thirty days from the non-user of the land.

Section 96 When it appears that any person has acquired land as the owner in place of an aliens or juristic person under the provisions of Section 97 and 98, the Director-General shall have the authority to dispose of such land and the provisions of Section 94 shall apply mutatis mutandis.


Land code [agent for many will read wife]
Section 113 Any person who acquires land as an agent of an alien or juristic person under the provisions of Section 97 or 98 shall be punished with a fine not exceeding twenty thousand Baht or an imprisonment not exceeding two years, or both.

Criminal code [when you sign that you make no claim on the land. it;s a gift]
Section 343 If the offence under Section 341 be committed by the assertion of a falsehood to the publicor by the concealment of the facts which should be revealed to the public, the offender shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding five years or fined not exceeding ten thousand Baht, or both.

You may get away with it if your wife is not to smart, but it can become a big problem if someone wants to make it so.

Friends in the right places can help, but they move on, new guy may not be so helpful.

As said safest way is keep out of it and the family court, in a disputed divorce may give some leeway. Jim

.

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Originally Posted by mike123ca

The only problem I see here is the way the laws are setup in this country.
The laws favor the Thai person. Keep the bulk of your assets outside of Thailand.
I find it much easier to sleep at night.

I tend to agree. I bought little into the country, and live on what I make here - the bulk is outside.

Not a case of not trusting the missus by any means - but don't get me started on the rest of the clan......

Yes...the clan.
Which, in some cases, have a way of turning her ear.

Not all. Every situation will be different.

This may make it a but clearer, this is from the Thai legal society.

When a Thai national married to a foreigner wants to buy land in Thailand the Land Department requires a certain procedure to insure that the land will become a personal (non-marital) asset of the Thai spouse only. The Land Department will ask from the foreign and Thai spouse a joint declaration in a letter of confirmation that the money expended on the land (or property) is a personal asset of the Thai spouse (land office regulation) and therefore under Thai laws governing property of husband and wife remains a personal (non-marital) asset of the Thai spouse after the acquisition. Alternatively to the letter of confirmation the Thai spouse must supply evidence to the land officer that the property to be acquired is acquired as a personal property pursuant to section 1471 and 1472 of the civil and commercial code.

When buying land the Thai spouse must declare the marriage with the foreigner to the land official. The following land office procedure for the acquisition of land by a Thai married to a foreigner and the signing of the letter of confirmation is aimed at preventing the land from becoming a jointly owned property (Sin Somros) of the Thai national and foreign spouse. The procedure is required under a March 1999 regulation issued jointly by the Land Department and Ministry of Interior. Prior to the 1999 regulation a Thai national married to a foreigner basically lost by the marriage the right to acquire land in Thailand.
Ownership and management of property owned by the Thai spouse

Immovable property which is owned jointly by husband and wife must under Thai matrimonial property laws be jointly managed by both spouses, but property purchased and registered as a personal asset of the Thai spouse can be managed by the Thai spouse independently of his or her spouse. The Thai spouse would be able to sell or encumber the property without the consent of the foreign spouse, even though he may have actually paid for the property.

The land or property registered as a personal property of the Thai spouse is often paid for by the foreign spouse but before the purchase given to the Thai spouse as a gift. If it is not transferred as a gift the land could under matrimonial property laws become a jointly owned (marital asset) or personal property of the foreign spouse, regardless of who is named on the title deed. The Thai spouse could in such case be considered acting as a nominee or agent acting on behalf of the foreign spouse which is illegal under Thai land laws. This is the reason the letter of confirmation signed jointly by husband and wife is required by the land office in Thailand before registration of transfer of ownership of the land.
Gifts and contracts between husband and wife in a Thai marriage

Gifts in Thailand is governed by book 3 civil and commercial code 'specific contracts' and subject to section 1469 of the civil code governing property of husband and wife, meaning that any contract (including gifts) concluded between husband and wife during marriage may be cancelled (voided or withdraw from the contract concluded) by either of them at any time during marriage or within one year from the day of dissolution of marriage, provided that the right of third persons acting in good faith is not affected thereby.

This means that in fact the gift and declaration at the land office could be revoked by the foreign spouse in a divorce. Proof will be required that the money used by the Thai spouse for the property purchase came as a gift from the personal property of the foreign spouse and transferred to the personal assets of the Thai spouse. Also any subsequent registered rights after the acquisition of the land given by the Thai spouse to the foreign spouse, such as a right of usufruct or superficies between husband and wife granted in favor of the foreign spouse can be voided pursuant to section 1469 of Thai matrimonial property laws.

Section 1469 of the Thai civil code gives each spouse the right to cancel or void any agreements affecting their personal assets entered between them during their marriage. This section primarily aims to prevent that spouses are able to arrange their own marital property regime. Property of husband and wife (what is marital and non-marital property) is governed by book 5 marriage in the chapter 'property of husband and wife'. Husband and wife can make agreements between them (gift, usufruct) but when there is a conflict with the system of property of husband and wife in the civil code each of them can revoke any agreement between them.

This means that legally any property purchase in Thailand is governed by the system of personal and marital property of husband and wife in the civil code, irrespective how the title of the property acquired during the marriage is held, and irrespective any gifts or agreements between husband and wife entered into at the time of marriage. The letter of confirmation signed at the land office could in a divorce be ignored.
Land office regulation

A Thai, who has an alien spouse (legal or illegal), would like to purchase land, an alien spouse has to confirm in a certify letter that the spending on land is his/her separate property (sin suan tua) or personal asset. The proceeding of certify letters are as follows:

1. In case an alien spouse lives in Thailand:
1.1 In case an alien is a legally spouse, a Thai and an alien spouse have to give joint confirmation in certify letter according to the forms which were specified by the Department of Lands in front of the competent officer in the date of registration of rights and juristic act that the spending on land is sin suan tau of a Thai not sin som ros of the spouse.
1.2 In case an alien is an illegally spouse, a Thai and an alien spouse have to give joint confirmation in certify letter according to the forms which were specified by the Department of Lands in front of the competent officer in the date of registration of rights and juristic act that the spending on land is personal asset of a Thai only not common property.
2. In case an alien spouse lives in Thailand but could not proceed according to No.1: In case an alien spouse lives in Thailand but in the date of registration an alien could not give written confirmation together with a Thai in front of the competent officer at the registration land office. A Thai and an alien spouse shall lodge the application of testimony form for confirming that the spending on land is sin suan tau or personal asset of only a Thai not sin som ros or common property by lodging the application to the competent officer at provincial land office or any branch land office.
3. In case an alien spouse lives in oversea: n case an alien spouse lives in oversea and could not lodge the application of testimony form according to No.1 and No.2. An alien has to contacts the embassy, consular or notary public for giving testimony of an alien spouse in certify letter according to the forms which were specified by the Department of Lands that the spending on land is sin suan tau or personal asset of a Thai not sin som ros or common property one. The embassy, consular or notary public has to certify that person, who applies for certify letter, is truly spouse or they live together as husband and wife with a Thai. After, a Thai who would like to purchase land shall bring original of certify letter to the competent officer for registration of rights and juristic act accordingly.
4. In case a Thai who has legal or illegal alien spouse, if a Thai could show the evidence indicates that the spending on land is sin suan tau or personal asset according to section 1471 and section 1472 of The Civil and Commercial Code, the competent officer could registers rights and juristic act for a Thai without testimony form of Thai nationality and an alien spouse according No.1 – No.3.
5. In case a Thai, who has alien spouse, purchased land before 23 March B.E. 2542 but informed or submitted a false document declaring that he/she is single. For relaxation of rule to a Thai, who has legal or illegal alien spouse, purchased or owned land after the date of marriage. And a Thai informed or submitted a false document to the competent officer declaring that he/she is single or a Thai has no alien spouse prior to the date of issuing letter of Ministry of Interior, Urgent No. MOI 0710/Circulation 792 dated 23 March B.E. 2542. An alien spouse and a Thai shall together give a written confirmation in certify letter in front of the competent officer that the spending on land is sin suan tau or personal asset of only a Thai not sin som ros or common property one. After, the competent officer retains documents in dealing file. If an alien spouse who lives oversea and could not give written confirmation together in front of the competent officer, an alien has to contacts the embassy, consular or notary public for giving testimony of an alien spouse in certify letter according to the forms which were specified by the Department of Lands that the spending on land is sin suan tau or personal asset of a Thai not sin som ros or common property one. The embassy, consular or notary public has to certify that person, who applies the certify letter, is truly spouse or they live together as husband and wife with a Thai. After, a Thai who would like to purchase land shall bring original of certify letter to the competent officer for retaining documents in dealing file.

------------------------

(Sample content land office 'Letter of Confirmation'):

Letter of Confirmation


At:.....................................

Date:............. Month ............................ Year..............

I, Mr./ Mrs..................................... and Mr./ Mrs............................... are registered/ unregistered both spouses. We together confirm that the money which Mr./ Mrs.............. ................................ shall expend on the purchase of land title deed/ N.S.3 K/ N.S 3 no..................... ... ............... Sub-district...... .... ...............District........................... ......................... Province.................................. or Condominium Unit no......... Floor.................... Name of the Condominium................................. Sub-district.......................................... District........................................ ... Province...................................... ............... is wholly Suan Tun or the personal property of Mr./ Mrs............................................ alone, not Sin Som Ros or the matrimonial property between husband and wife.

(Signature)................................ Certified spouse

(Signature)................................ Certified spouse

(Signature)................................ Witness

Originally Posted by Gerbil

Originally Posted by barbaro

she stole his years of EFL savings before they split up.

So he lost about $100 then?

I know whatcha mean.

But he wasn't a Thailand EFL teacher. He was in VN (which does not pay great either, but better).

He got dinged for $14,000 usd. Some people save $15,000 usd per year, but these are the 7 days a week split shift work 4 jobs types. Most save a lot less. Many choose to work little and get by.

Originally Posted by barbaro

Originally Posted by alitongkat

PHUKET: A Greek expat was found lying in the middle of the road on Friday (September 13) evening, after his Thai wife allegedly stole B2 million from their joint bank account and took their house.

Rule #1: don't not have joint back accounts. What an idiot.

Rule #2: if you *cough* "buy" a house in LOS it isn't yours. So, buy a house if you can afford to lose it.

Let me say this again newbies and dummies.

To make matters worse he found she had taken B2 million from their joint back account, and changed the house ownership papers out of his name and into hers.

I know an English teacher (he's a fine chap) who had a joint bank account with his VNese wife. Duh....she stole his years of EFL savings before they split up. I remember him telling me a couple times, "I want my money back."

Yeah, right.



I have no sympathy for these idiots.

Spot on, "Never spend/build that you can walk away from"
FFS a joint acct with 2M TBH , then leave for 4 months.....

Originally Posted by jamescollister

This means that in fact the gift and declaration at the land office could be revoked by the foreign spouse in a divorce. Proof will be required that the money used by the Thai spouse for the property purchase came as a gift from the personal property of the foreign spouse and transferred to the personal assets of the Thai spouse.

I think this is the relevant bit...You may not be able to have the land or even the house but you can force a sale and get back half of the proceeds.

Originally Posted by Troy

Originally Posted by jamescollister

This means that in fact the gift and declaration at the land office could be revoked by the foreign spouse in a divorce. Proof will be required that the money used by the Thai spouse for the property purchase came as a gift from the personal property of the foreign spouse and transferred to the personal assets of the Thai spouse.

I think this is the relevant bit...You may not be able to have the land or even the house but you can force a sale and get back half of the proceeds.

May be relievent if you don't get bang up by the police for signing a false declaration.
Different courts, criminal. civil and family, think anyone would be taking a big chance. Jim