Thread: Phi Phi : Canadian sisters found dead in Thai resort

I wonder, how many people in Thailand die each year from eating Blowfish?

^^
TBH having them crying you off in ThaiVisa is a definite point in your favour,
that place is devoid of intellect and humanity.

And fair play to you for looking into the science behind the rumours, there are plenty of outsiders that read Teakdoor threads when there are tragedies such as this, that are looking for informed opinions rather than idle conjecture and downright pig ignorance.

Originally Posted by alwarner

I wonder, how many people in Thailand die each year from eating Blowfish?

Did they have diarrhea? It wasn't mentioned, only copious vomit. And if the women really had bleeding gums, then that and the lack of diarrhea mitigates against it being blowfish. But mushrooms can kill suddenly and can cause renal failure which can cause bleeding gums.

Poisoning with the neurotoxin tetrodotoxin (TTX) occurs after ingestion of various species of puffer fish (see the image below).
Puffer fish. The flesh of the puffer fish (ie, fugu) is considered a delicacy in Japan. It is prepared by chefs specially trained and certified by the government to prepare the flesh free of the toxic liver, gonads, and skin. Despite these precautions, many cases of tetrodotoxin poisoning are reported each year in patients ingesting fugu.
Poisonings usually occur after eating fish caught and prepared by uncertified handlers.
The toxic dose is not clear because puffer fish have different concentrations of tetrodotoxin. A dose of 1-2 mg of purified toxin can be lethal. Reported cases from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) have documented toxicity with ingestion of as little as 1.4 ounces of puffer fish.
Tetrodotoxin also is found in the the following:

• Gastropod mollusc
• The eggs of horseshoe crabs
• Newts of the genus Taricha
• The skin of Atelopid frogs
• The skin and viscera of porcupine fish, globefish, balloon fish, blowfish, sunfish, toadfish, blue-ringed octopus, and some species of salamanders

• The first symptoms occur 15 minutes to several hours postingestion of tetrodotoxin-containing food. A recent report on toxicity found that initial symptoms may occur up to 20 hours after ingestion.
• Initial symptoms include lip and tongue paresthesias, followed by facial and extremity paresthesias and numbness.
• Salivation, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea with abdominal pain develop early.
• Motor dysfunction with weakness, hypoventilation (may be from dysfunction of central and peripheral nervous systems), and speech difficulties then develop. A rapid ascending paralysis occurs over 4-24 hours. Extremity paralysis precedes bulbar paralysis, which is followed by respiratory muscle paralysis. Deep tendon reflexes are preserved early in the course of paralysis.
• Finally, cardiac dysfunction with hypotension and dysrhythmias (bradycardia), central nervous system (CNS) dysfunction (eg, coma), and seizures develop. Patients with severe toxicity may have deep coma, fixed nonreactive pupils, apnea, and loss of all brain stem reflexes.
• Death can occur within 4-6 hours. Typically, death occurs from respiratory muscle paralysis and respiratory failure.
• Medscape: Medscape Access

Oh Lord! Does this cut and paste fest mean GIT has forsaken his rat poison speculation? Probably not although he may be shifting his ground, inexorably....

By the way, collection of blood, post mortem, can rupture fine blood vessels in the skin but I do appreciate that such detail may be beyond the comprehension of someone more concerned with the broad brush stroke of a fevered imagination.

anyone know for sure what poisonous mushrooms exist in Thailand?

I read reports of earlier deaths of villagers but didn't see the name of the mushroom.

the 'americanmushrooms.com website says death cap mushhrooms are not to be found in Thailand but Thais and other Asians living in America mistake them for a Thai look-a-like and die.

"Most victims of life-threatening mushroom poisoning in North America are people from Southeast Asia—Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Viet Nam. They apparently mistake Death Caps for edible "Paddy-Straw" (Volvariella volvacea) mushrooms. The two are similar in several ways—cap color, size, and the white "cup" around the base of the stalk—but different in others (for example, the Paddy-Straw has a pink spore print, the Death Cap a white spore print; and the Death Cap has a partial veil). The Paddy Straw mushroom occurs in tropical and temperate areas worldwide, and is especially common in Southeast Asia; the Death Cap, alas, does not occur in Southeast Asia, so folks from that part of the world are unaware of the lethal "look-alike."

Originally Posted by Neo

And fair play to you for looking into the science behind the rumours, there are plenty of outsiders that read Teakdoor threads when there are tragedies such as this, that are looking for informed opinions rather than idle conjecture

Don't you understand Wiki or Google yourself then Neo ?

Originally Posted by Kwang

Originally Posted by Neo

And fair play to you for looking into the science behind the rumours, there are plenty of outsiders that read Teakdoor threads when there are tragedies such as this, that are looking for informed opinions rather than idle conjecture

Don't you understand Wiki or Google yourself then Neo ?

and downright pig ignorance..

Are you attempting to take the intellectual highground with your flaccid witticism?
Are you new here Kwang? I think not and I think you should know better.

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

Do you think prefacing your meanderings with "Oh Lord!" somehow lends them weight and credibility?

He doesn't have any credibility, or any friends for that matter.

^ Haha, I do have a nic on there. I don't post on there though. Did you get banned then ?

Originally Posted by BobR

Sound's like another overly ambitious bug exterminator.

It's true a poison like aluminum phosphide could be the culprit.

Aluminum phosphide fits the bill even better than chlorpyrifos since it doesn't take much inhaled of aluminum phosphide to kill via inhalation. Usually it is hard to kill someone via inhalation of a pesticide, rodenticide, etc. But aluminum phosphide is extremely toxic and has killed several members of a family, for example, after the U.S. exterminator put some pellets in rodent holes OUTside the house and the fumes wafted into the house.

But, again, the question must be asked: if putting a few aluminum phosphide pellets in the AC (or wherever) to 'off-gas' and kill bedbugs is common practice in Thailand, then why haven't we seen more deaths from accidental inhalation from tourists and others in hotel rooms? There should be numerous, random deaths from pesticides if this is the case.

There are tens of thousands of hotel rooms in Thailand and hundreds of thousands---millions--of tourists stay in those rooms so we should here of many, many more of these types of deaths if thai hotel personnel were really using these kinds of poisons.

Note the pulmonary edema listed as a symptom of aluminum phosphide poisoning. Pulmonary edema can cause blood-tinged sputum to be coughed up, and could explain blood found on Canadian victims as well as the blue-ish skin (cyanosis).

Also note the Indian guy below who tricked his wife into eating three pellets (one would have sufficed). So while it is true inhalation can easily kill, for the reasons mentioned in my post above I think it unlikely this is an accidental inhalation death--because we would see many, many more of them if Thais were routinely using this stuff to kill bedbugs in hotel rooms, for example.

I think the women were murdered.

"Aluminum phosphide is known to be highly acutely toxic when ingested or inhaled. Symptoms of mild to moderate acute exposure include nausea, abdominal pain, tightness in chest, excitement, restlessness, agitation and chills. Symptoms of more severe exposure include, diarrhea, cyanosis, difficulty breathing, pulmonary edema, respiratory failure, tachycardia (rapid pulse) and hypotension (low blood pressure), dizziness and/or death".
Second Girl Dies in Apparent Pesticide Poisoning in Utah

"Aluminum phosphide is now perhaps the most common suicide agent in mid and northern India, where it is freely used as grain preservative and easily available over the counter. The toxic product, phosphine gas, is liberated on exposure to moisture. Phosphine is a systemic poison that causes severe congestion and evokes a significant inflammatory response. It is similar to cyanide, but acts slowly. It has been found to inhibit cytochrome oxidase, a respiratory chain enzyme. Systematic toxic effects appear 1–60 min after ingestion.Acute cardiovascular collapse is the most frequent mode of presentation, seen in 60%–100% of cases. There is a "dose-toxicity" and "dose-time to death" correlation. Even 1.5 g (1/2 tablet) can prove fatal within a few hours".
http://asianannals.ctsnetjournals.or.../full/16/4/298

Dead body of a female was brought for postmortem examination at the mortuary of New Civil Hospital, Surat. History revealed that her husband had given three tablets to her on the pretext that these tablets would help in the birth of a male child. She became ill soon after consuming the tablets and died within 12 hours of ingestion while under treatment. Autopsy revealed death from aluminium phosphide poisoning.
Indian Journals

Aluminum phosphide sounds like nasty stuff, and it is implicated in accidental poisonings all over the world. Does anyone know how often exterminators use this in Thailand or how easy it is to procure?

Aluminium phosphide poisoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

May 2009 Koh Phi Phi 4 people poisoned (3 of them women) in two adjoining rooms become gravely ill. Two die, both women, one from each room. One of the survivors said he smelled something strange. (Aluminum phosphide can but not always smell like garlic). The American who died, Jill St Onge, was cremated in Thailand I believe without the familiy's permission. The Norwegian's body was flown home for additional autopsies. I believe the Thais could have paid them to keep quiet, just as I believe the father of Sarah Carter who died in Chiang Mai was paid to take his website down "thailandtraveltragedies.com". I have no proof of this other than: why say you are starting a website to honor the memory of your daughter so others can be warned but then to take it down after it causes embarrassment to the Thais?

Here are the words of one of the survivors from the first set of Phi Phi deaths

''One thing we do believe is that both Julie and Jill (Norwegian and American in adjoining rooms) had elevated blood levels of cholinesterase inhibitor, a likely sign of pesticide gas poisoning, as suggested by a couple of research experts asked to comment on the blood results.

''We also know that the implied causes investigated by the Thailand authorities such as alcohol and drugs have been eliminated as potential causes of death. All of the investigative effort thus far has focused on life style causes and to our knowledge no effort has been expended to determine if a pesticide might have been the lethal agent".
https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...or-speaks.html (Mystery Phi Phi Deaths; Survivor Speaks, Finally)

https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...h-phi-phi.html

Note that the 'pesticide gas' possibility mentioned above just as easily could have been a pesticide ingestion. Plus it is hard to kill someone with pesticides that are organophosphate poisons when the route is inhalation. The smell they think they smelled in the room could have been just plain stinky ol Thailand. On the other hand, how did two sets of people who didn't know each other in two adjoining rooms become gravely ill? By being surreptitiously served poison on two separate occasions as they dined separately, or from water bottles placed in their rooms---or by a gas (deliberate or accidental) that affected both adjoining rooms?

Feb 2011, Chiang Mai, 8 people poisoned (6 women and 2 men) and a total of 6 people died in Chiang Mai (4 of them women) from symptoms that resemble those found in aluminum phosphide poisoning as well as organophosphates (if ingested). For a while the idea that the insecticide chlorpyrifos was put forth as a possible cause but it is not easy to die from inhaling that---plus I believe they found traces of aluminum in the carpet at the Downtown Inn and aluminum is in aluminum phosphide; they also may have found chlorpyrifos traces but that is a common insecticide requiring a very, very high dose---ounces poured on you--to kill by skin or inhallation--HOWEVER, if consumed in a drink it doesn't take much. And I believe it is not impossible for all victims to have been served a drink or meal (from the Night Bazaar nearby?) that was deliberately poisoned.

4 of the 6 were staying at the Downtown Inn. two people in two separate rooms on one floor and an elderly couple in another room on the floor below.
1 of the remaining two who died stayed elsewhere but visited the Downtown Inn the day of his death, had drinks by the pool I believe
The other person who died was Soraya Vorster who, from all reports, did not visit the Downtown Inn and I believe she died a few weeks prior to the remaining 5 but with similar symptoms.https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...ing-death.html (NZ woman in Thailand food poisoning death)

June 2012. Koh Phi Phi Two sisters found dead in their hotel room. (see this thread)

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

I believe the father of Sarah Carter who died in Chiang Mai was paid to take his website down "thailandtraveltragedies.com". I have no proof of this other than: why say you are starting a website to honor the memory of your daughter so others can be warned but then to take it down after it causes embarrassment to the Thais?

I doubt that

"Having the knowledge that Sarah's still around us in spirit, that helps ease the pain a little, knowing that she still lives on, and that she's still with us."

A website the Carters set up to help record and bring attention to instances similar to their daughter's, ThailandTravelTragedies.com, has been taken down.

"You can only take so much of revisiting the scene of the crime, where all the emotions start to come back too heavily.

"I was finding that I was entering the site with a degree of depression."

Recommendations made in the report such as the establishment of a panel to investigate stricter measures for the use of chemicals in Thailand are now Mr Carter's focus.

This year he plans to contact Thai and New Zealand authorities to make sure the recommendations weren't "lip service".

He has already been given cause for concern - emails sent to the owner of the Downtown Inn, where Sarah fell ill, and the mayor of Chiang Mai have gone unanswered.

"In fact, I haven't even had an apology from either of them. My wife and I haven't had one official apology."

With an increasing number of young Kiwis taking advantage of cheap flights to holiday in the region, Mr Carter says he wants to help shield other families from experiencing what his has.

He declined an offer from TV3's 60 Minutes programme to accompany a reporter to Chiang Mai, "as psychologically I couldn't face going to Thailand".

"But [this] year, if one of the current affairs programmes was going I'd be quite keen on doing a follow-up on exactly what they have done.

"I think that would provide a positive impetus on getting something done."

A year on - life without Sarah - Thailand - NZ Herald News

Wiyada Srirangkul, director of the Tourism Authority Krabi office, said tourism in the province did not appear to have been affected by the incident because the cause of death was still not known.

However, if it were found that the young women died because of contaminated food, the image of the area would inevitably be affected.

What a first class twat,

Is it possible they are importing boot leg booze from Laos or a like. First time we were in Chaing Mai we took a day trip to Chaing Rai & over to Laos, we purchased boot leg booze JW Black & JD & some type of vodka. Price was around $3.00 Aus per bottle it even came in a box like the real thing. When we got back to resort in Chaing Mai staff advised us not to drink use to clean engine or drain only. I tried to give to them but they refused, that told us something. A young staff member was sent to our room by management and ask us to tip the booze out, I could not do it so this young Thai lass tipped it down the sink for me. Never purchased anything like it again.

Assuming it was a killer who deliberately poisoned them, what kind of poison would he have used?

Let's see: recently there was the case of the Thai guy slipping poison into the coffee of other Thai guys with cars and trucks in order to steal their vehicles for a car theft ring (the killer got 50,000 baht per car). He killed 4 knowns and 2 are still missing and presumed dead, so 6 total.

"Nirut reportedly confessed to causing the deaths. "But I didn't intend to kill them. Only those who drank all the coffee in their cups died," he said.

"Nirut said he received Bt50,000 per stolen vehicle he handed over to a gang based in Songkhla's Hat Yai district. "I have also stolen valuables from the bodies of my victims," Nirut said. All the victims were drivers offering transport services. Nirut said he randomly called his victims from telephone numbers he saw in advertisements".
https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...aths-four.html (Thailand: Man held in poisoning deaths of four)



The poison in the picture says "Lannate" which is a highly toxic carbamate insecticide that allows acetylcholine to build up between the nerves causing lots of things but not bleeding, apparently:

Methomyl is a highly toxic compound in EPA toxicity class I. It is classified as Restricted Use Pesticide (RUP) by EPA because of its high acute toxicity to humans. The Signal Words for products containing methomyl depend upon the formulation of the product. Restricted Use Pesticides may be purchased and used only by certified applicators. (but not in Thailand, where it is readily available in pretty cans)

Acute toxicity: Methomyl is highly toxic via the oral route, with reported oral LD50 values of 17 to 24 mg/kg in rats [10], 10 mg/kg in mice, and 15 mg/kg in guinea pigs [5]. Symptoms of methomyl exposure are similar to those caused by other carbamates and cholinesterase inhibitors [5]. These may include weakness, blurred vision, headache, nausea, abdominal cramps, chest discomfort, constriction of pupils, sweating, muscle tremors, and decreased pulse. If there is severe poisoning, symptoms of twitching, giddiness, confusion, muscle incoordination, slurred speech, low blood pressure, heart irregularities, and loss of reflexes may also be experienced. Death can result from discontinued breathing, paralysis of muscles of the respiratory system, intense constriction of the openings of the lung, or all three [5]. It is moderately toxic via inhalation with a reported 4-hour inhalation LC50 in male rats of 0.3 mg/L [4]. Inhalation of dust or aerosol may cause irritation, lung and eye problems, with symptoms of chest tightness, blurred vision, tearing, wheezing, and headaches appearing upon exposure. Other systemic symptoms of cholinesterase inhibition may appear within a few minutes to several hours of exposure [39]. It is slightly toxic via the dermal route, with a reported dermal LD50 of 5880 mg/kg in rabbits [10], and is absorbed only slowly through the skin [5]. However, if sufficient amounts are absorbed through the skin, symptoms similar to those induced by ingestion or inhalation will develop [5].

GIT, do you have a hobby?