Bruce, Lord of TEFL - An interview by Stickman

[Sir Burr]

I thought this weeks Stickman article might be of interest to our resident hand-bag wielding TEFL bretheren:-

Bruce, Lord Of TEFL
Bruce Veldhuisen and I first met in the early days of TEFL International, the teacher training course provider that Bruce set up in Bahn Pe on Thailand's eastern seaboard. Bruce and I have been good friends ever since and try to catch up every few months. We met up a couple of weeks ago and had such an interesting conversation about the English teaching and teacher training industry that I thought it would be nice to interview him again. Truth be told, articles about teaching don't always set the Stickman readership alive, but I think you'll find Bruce's views about the industry and teaching in Thailand interesting, and his frankness refreshing.

Your business is teacher training. Can you tell me a little bit about TEFL International and how it has changed since we first met, what, about 9 years ago?

Well, it’s a looooot bigger! Back then I rarely met people who knew what TEFL International was except for maybe in Thailand where it was becoming well known. Now, no matter where I go, if people are involved in ELT they know TEFL International. We’re almost at 30 teacher training centres worldwide.

How does that compare with CELTA or other course providers?

Well, CELTA have more graduates per year, probably around 9,000 per year now. We’re at around 3,000 and our old partners, Trinity, are lagging well behind at perhaps 2,000. CELTA, I think, have a lot of centres but they’re all disconnected because they’re all franchises. No interconnection, no inter-branch relationships and the same goes with Trinity. They’re just a bunch of individual centres. As far as an integrated organisation that offers teacher training, we are by the far the biggest. In fact I don’t think anyone else is even close!

How big a part of the whole business is the Thailand operation?

Oh, as a country Thailand is still our most popular destination. We have three centres here, more than any other country. All of our centres are pretty popular. I think Chiang Mai was a really good addition especially since we joined as a partnership with Chiang Mai University. I am still very happy with Bahn Pe.

That’s the original, yeah?

That’s the original! Still in the same building!

You’ve got a cool location there, just a few minutes walk to the beach and the pier with boats to Ko Samet. Was that location intentional or accidental?

Intentional. I wanted to find some place that was close enough to Bangkok that you could get there in just a few hours but also be on the beach. That was what I was looking for and I found it in Rayong.

You’re a bit of a personality in Bahn Pe, yeah?

Actually, I don’t think I am a personality in Bahn Pe. I’m an enigma! Everyone knows who I am but not a lot of people ever meet me or interact with me. I don’t go to my school very often. I work mainly from home. I don’t hang around in the bars so the bar scene and the people there never meet me. I spend most of my evenings either at home or playing basketball with my kids. So the basketball players all know me but they wouldn’t have any idea what TEFL International is. And I meet people all the time who have lived in Bahn Pe for years who say, “Oh, you’re Bruce”. It happens every week! I am like this mythical figure that everyone knows about but never sees. Hahaha! Of course all the crazy things posted about me on the internet make me even more mysterious! Hahaha!

You touched on the bar scene. I have to ask you this. Have any of your graduates got themselves in trouble in the local bar scene in Bahn Pe? What about that American guy who ran dodgy websites I sent you years ago?

We have a lot of crazy things happen. A bunch of girls went skinny dipping one night and had their clothes stolen! They were really mad about it and demanded that we get more security. I was wondering where in the world they could go skinny dipping at 3 AM and not put themselves at some risk!

We have our local character, Oliver, who runs a bar near us and he provides a lot of lively entertainment for the trainees.

Why should someone do your course over the more recognised, and generally better respected, CELTA?

My first point would be, generally better respected by whom? By myopic Brits who don’t want to see their monopoly cut in two? You wouldn’t believe the problems we have with the British Council who try every trick in the book in order to say that our course isn’t recognised when it is a competitive course to the CELTA they run at 17 British Council schools around the world! I mean it practically took a law suit before they would recognise our course as being an equivalent to the CELTA. What’s the problem?

I’ll tell you the problem. American English is inferior to British English. American English can sound silly at times with dreadful slang and lazy short cuts on grammar and pronunciation. I'm sorry, but when some Americans speak, they don't sound that clever. Compare that to British English! What do you say to that, as an American?!

I saw a white paper written by the British government a few years ago and they came to the “shocking conclusion” that England doesn’t actually own English. Again, the poor Brits refuse to recognise the fact that English around the world is just as recognised as the Queen’s English back home and in fact some of us non Brits have real problems understanding some of those accents that originate from the Magic Isles!

So you can understand Bangkok Phil's accent?

I have only met him twice in my life. Both for very short meetings. I know that when you get a Glaswegian I practically need an interpreter.

Back to the earlier question, obviously I think our course has some advantages. Unlike some of my local competitors, my job is not to disparage all the other courses in the hopes that it makes my course look better. I think the CELTA is a good course. I think it has a slightly different focus and I think sometimes they take themselves a bit too seriously. I think our advantages are that we are an inter-connected organisation so that you can get support no matter where you are around the world, unlike other courses where every other course is seen as a competitor.

Obviously in Thailand the fact that you don’t have to take the 4 day Thai language and culture course is a big advantage as well as you get the certificate issued upon completion of the course. I also think we do a better job of preparing teachers to teach large classes which is what most people end up teaching here in Thailand, if not all over Asia.

What’s the deal with the legalities of becoming a legally employed foreign English teacher in Thailand these days?

What day of the week is it?! Hahaha!

The fact is that these rules change so frequently that it is hard to keep up! All I know is that people, no matter what their background, have little difficulty in finding work.

Legal work?

Apparently. Most people get employed legally. According to the new regulations, even if they don’t have a degree, their school can petition the Ministry of Education. The Ministry of Education change the rules so frequently it is hard to keep up. I am really anxious to see how this 60,000 baht required course in education is going to work in Thailand. I don’t think it is ever going to happen.

Some readers won’t know about that. Can you tell us more?

Well apparently, as of next year, all teachers are going to be required to take a course run by the Thai government which teaches all the basics of a bachelors degree in education and that course is going to take several months and is going to cost 60,000 baht which will make Thailand’s rules about teaching English some of the most stringent in the world. Considering the difficulty that Thailand has in recruiting good teachers, it just seems very, very counterproductive. In fact, it almost seems like the Ministry of Education saw how successful certain certificate courses were and they wanted to get in on the action!

What are some of the steps a foreign teacher can take to make the most of their time teaching in Thailand? Or to be successful. Because, let’s face it, plenty of foreigners fail here, even as teachers.

I think people have to look at themselves first. Why are they teaching? Is it because they want to? Is it because they are good at it? Or is it because they cannot think of anything else to do. I mean, let's face it, Stickman, anyone who has been in the teaching scene in Thailand knows that there are some people here teaching English in Thailand who were almost certainly failures at everything they have done in their lives. I mean, what’s the percentage? 10%? 20%? 30%? Higher?! While I know some bright people here who would have been successful at anything they did, I have met far too many who are here because it is their destination of last resort.

You and I have something in common. We both get people talking, we’re both disliked on the Ajarn.com forum, without valid reason I believe, and we have both had episodes online. You know all about my situation. Tell me about yours!

I have at least 5 people ranting about me online!

What? I am small time compared to you!

Some of them are legitimately crazy and some of them simply are angry and have an axe to grind, I believe without good cause. But the danger of the internet is that any idiot can post anything they want and in a week it is on Google. Obviously it is a two-edged sword. People have access to a lot of information and that is a great thing but 20 years ago an idiot didn’t have a forum, a venue to spew their ridiculous opinions or outright lies. Now it is available in a free blog to anyone. I mean, these people who hate me have never met me, have never interacted with me and have absolutely nothing to do with me. But perhaps defaming me online is their 15 minutes of fame? Well, I guess if that is the only thing they can do to make their pathetic lives feel better, more power to them.

And what about the Ajarn forum? Phil who runs Ajarn.com is a friend and one Bangkok webmaster I both like and admire and in all fairness to him the Ajarnforum.net site is not run by him. But what has happened to it? It is becoming an embarrassment to English teaching in Thailand and quite frankly, if it continues on its current path it will soon be a disgrace. Why is it that whenever you or I get online we're jeered like we’re the devil incarnate?!

Small, small lives. It baffles me as well. I mean, no matter what I say or what I do on that forum all I get is grief and it’s just ridiculous. Regardless of whether Phil owns that forum or not, he should be far more responsible for how people are treated. It is not just us, Mr. Stickman. I have read posts on other forums where people have gone to Ajarn and asked a legitimate question only to be belittled by poster after poster after poster. It’s like these people are so angry. I just don’t get it. Life is too short which is why I have visited that site 3 times in the last 6 months.

This is a big problem on a lot of Thailand forums, it seems. What do you think the Thais would make of English teachers, if they could understand the full meaning of everything that is said on that forum?

Hahaha! I’d say that we would probably be booking our flights right now because all of us would be out of the country within a month!

Let’s not stuff around. I think the English teaching industry in Thailand is one big have and that many teachers are here for less than altruistic reasons. English teachers are to Expatdom what backpackers are to travel - they have an over-inflated opinion of themselves. The unenviable reputation that English teachers in Thailand have is, in my opinion, totally deserved. What say you, Bruce, Lord of TEFL?

I can't say this without making it sound very commercial but that is what I like about our short term teaching programs in Thailand. The people who join these programs are bright, interested and they’re going to be successful in their lives. They want to see Thailand, experience its culture and not exploit it. They come and they want to spend 6 months or a year and then they’re going to do the sensible thing and get on with their lives. Let’s face it, teaching English in Thailand obviously doesn’t pay very well and unless you have outside sources of income or have put money away before you come, you really cannot survive here long term.
Other countries are very different. You can go and be a professional and earn a decent salary, you can make good money, you can get married, raise kids and save for retirement. It is far more difficult here unless you look at teaching English as a stepping stone to other sources of income. The people you mentioned such as Bangkok Phil have a nice little earner in Ajarn.com. You earn money from Stickman. I earn money from TESOL certificate courses.
Is it bad or wrong to earn 30,000 baht a month? No, but let’s face it, you’re never going to get ahead with that kind of income. If you’re older, if you’re retired or if you’re coming here because you need something to do once you have finished your “real” career, great. If you are coming here to experience something amazing before you start your “real” career, great. But people who are here year after year after year getting the same income and moving from school to school and from job to job probably aren’t the kind of people who are going to be successful back home. The people who take these short projects, even though a lot of people say they are inexperienced and under-qualified, most of them are bright, well-educated and enthusiastic and I would rather have a bright, educated and enthusiastic teacher than a Patpong burnout any day!

OK, enough negativity. What are the good things about teaching and the teaching industry in Thailand?

If you love to teach, Thailand is a great place and I would say roughly 20 – 30% of the people who take our course really find that they love teaching. Are there naughty Mattayom students? Sure! But I think if you compared them to high school students in the West well, hey, we don’t have metal detectors at the door. I have lived in Thailand for 12 years and I think it is an amazing place. I love it here. And I think most people who visit love it here as well. And the great thing about teaching is that you get to experience Thailand in a very real way. You’ll be invited to weddings and funerals. You’ll interact with real Thais, not tourist touts. You’ll see the way that the country really works, the good, the bad and the ugly and I can’t help but think that that will broaden the horizons of anyone.

[hunter]

Jeez that GREEN is shitty.

[Sir Burr]

Jeez that GREEN is shitty.

What are you talking about?

[friscofrankie]

Interview? Or two cronies having a whinge, back-slap and bullshit session?

[barbaro]

Interview? Or two cronies having a whinge, back-slap and bullshit session?

Stickman is old hat.

[Smeg]

We’re almost at 30 teacher training centres worldwide.

CELTA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Each year around 900 CELTA courses are run by around 280 centres, primarily language schools, in 54 countries, producing over 10,000 graduates.[1] Each course is audited by an external assessor.

280 to "almost 30", that is quite a difference.

CELTA have more graduates per year, probably around 9,000 per year now. We’re at around 3,000 and our old partners, Trinity, are lagging well behind at perhaps 2,000. CELTA, I think, have a lot of centres but they’re all disconnected because they’re all franchises. No interconnection, no inter-branch relationships and the same goes with Trinity. They’re just a bunch of individual centres. As far as an integrated organisation that offers teacher training, we are by the far the biggest. In fact I don’t think anyone else is even close!

How many of the TEFL Int centres are franchises?

What is the big deal about "inter-branch relationships" and how does this produce a better teacher?

If all McDonald's franchises communicated with each other instead of only the head office would their burgers taste better?

[reinvented]

both came across as a pair of cocks
expect better from them to be honest

bottom line is who gives a fuck

[andrewdicksonsmith]

What an ego trip for both the interviewer and ther interviewee,talk about mutual backslapping. The biggest load of codswallop I think I have ever read.the two twats involved make a Thai goverment minister seem honest and intelligent !! what I would like to know is who bunged who a few baht for the original masterpiece ?

[Frankenstein]

Regardless of the rest of the article, they have a good point about inexplicably vindictive people online. Before I started to use the Internet I didn't realize the world was so full of obsessive stalkers.

[dirtydog]

Why is it that whenever you or I get online we're jeered like we’re the devil incarnate?!

Let me answer this one please Mr Stickman, it is because you are a ball less wnker who teaches kids in Thailand and basically runs what can only be called a sex site or a site for whore mongering, most people are probably not to happy with the idea of a whore monger teaching their little somchais.

[dirtydog]

My girlfriend is a teacher, she has a teaching degree which I doubt Bangkok Phil, stickman nor LDMA have, I just really can't imagine her starting a web site on whore mongering in Pattaya or the bar life in Bangkok, I mean I have offered to set up web sites for her and she has never mentioned the idea of a whore mongering site or anything like that, I wonder what gave stickman the idea that it would be a good site for a teacher in Bangkok to run.

[Bexar County Stud]

My girlfriend is a teacher, she has a teaching degree which I doubt Bangkok Phil, stickman nor LDMA have...

I'm not an absolutist about degrees and qualifications, but it is interesting to note that none of the online teaching gurus mentioned above have degrees.

Bully for them, but the point is that they are hardly representative of the teachers I've encountered in Thailand. They do represent a certain segment of the market here no doubt, but if you listened to 'em, you'd think they invented teaching in Thailand.

With regards to Bruce's and sticky's musings about online agression, I think in the above case it stems from some posers defending their fragile house of cards.

[dirtydog]

I'm not an absolutist about degrees and qualifications,

I shall remind you of that if I ever have to take you to hospital as your breathing your last breath, the vet I use on Soi Nern Plub Wan are extremly good and professional

Both Phil and stickman have set themselves up as icons and experts in the teaching industry in Thailand, would hope that at least one of them could manage a degree of some sort or other.

[Smeg]

^ university of hard knocks only I guess.

[dirtydog]

Well Phil did delete that stuff about him having a degree but he may not have been the author and it could just have been a contributor, although not very likely but the doubt is there, hmmm stickman, what qualifications does he have? We could move onto Bruce, he proudly and quite rightly puts his cv on his web site, he aint got nothing to be ashamed of, would Phil or LDMA do that? They are all selling a service or product.

[jizzybloke]

So who won the tongue furthest up the others arse competition then?

[dirtydog]

I believe smeg pronounced the winner as LDMA

[dirtydog]

I think Chiang Mai was a really good addition especially since we joined as a partnership with Chiang Mai University.

Oh dear, I have a good story to tell about the Chiang Mai Uni, they made us some real good offers for advertising them, offers that people would masturbate over, please note all you TEFLers that I spelt masturbate correctly, there is no "E" in the middle of masturbate, yes that is a "U" in the middle of your favourite pastime, anyway this offer stands for a month and then suddenly gets changed to less than half, next week we got a load of web site development tools going online, affiliate advertising and being ripped off will be a feature of it.

[JohnGalt]

In the past, I have been offered up a number of accounts how Bruce handled his dealing in shady ways. I never got into talking about it on-line. I would have to believe that Bruce has certainly done a few people dirty --- but here is that concept where when someone has climbed up the ladder a few rungs suddenly the ends are justifing and cleaning up the means..... Love that publishing.... "birds of a feather".

[dirtydog]

Well I would go into it some more but it is for a seperate part of the forum, I think probably the stuff you have been offered about Bruce may have a touch of the Whitey Bias in it, or happy or fair whatever there user names may have been.

So, how you feeling about tomorrow? Its the big day I believe where you could be stuck in jail or the judges could tell you both to fok off and don't come back

[dirtydog]

Might aswell post a bit about making money or losing money on the internet I suppose.

Now with affiliate advertising your relying on them being truthfull and giving you the dosh, some of these companys offer like 500$ a sign up, now thats good money and will buy you a load of girls down Soi Yodsak, but will they be honest?

In our experience they will just lie and cheat you, yep sadly we haven't found one that we would sign up to, a good cheat is they will do it on session cookies, so you got someone that has seen your ad for a TEFLer course for 3,000quid or whatever they cost, now the only chance of a web site owner of getting any money out of one of these sign ups is if the customer actually clicks the advert button or banner and then pays, who the fok does that? they stick it in bookmarks and think about it, of course once the course provider is caught out he makes excuses and says it was a mistake and they will change the cookies, would you trust them after this sort of thing? It is real easy to choose how long you want your cookies to last, I think td is set at 10 days for threads viewed, but hell, it would take 3 minutes at most to change that, so nope, they cannot be trusted

[JohnGalt]

Yes, tomorrow is the big day! I'm hating the fact I have to get up at 9am to go do this gig.... I typically like to sleep til noon.....

I'll bet that Clayton doesn't show. I have a feeling that only his lawyer will be there tomorrow.

[dirtydog]

We have even had affiliate advertisers offering us money upfront, ie they will pay us so much even before they advertise and we get to keep it, another boring scam that will tie you up with their adverts, fok you have already taken their money, bit hard to get out of now

[dirtydog]

So if you win tomorrow will you go out and rape a willing virgin from your village

[DrAndy]

thats good money and will buy you a load of girls down Soi Yodsak, but will they be honest?

In our experience they will just lie and cheat you,

you are talking about the girls?