oh boy, after red terrorism, you are now advocating unilateral pre-emptive strike and illegal wars for regime changeQuote:
Originally Posted by sabang
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oh boy, after red terrorism, you are now advocating unilateral pre-emptive strike and illegal wars for regime changeQuote:
Originally Posted by sabang
indeed, but it seems now with the Iraq precedent that the main power don't give a flying fuck what the others thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
and Cameron is busy fighting scandals on multiple front,
:confused: Qadaffi was warned to stop using air power against the rebels, then warned Nato would commence military action if he didn't stop. Nothing pre-emptive about it. Like most long term despots, Q's arrogance was his undoing. Had he negotiated instead of threatening massacres against the rebels and arming civilian loyalists in Tripoli to kill them, he would probably still be there today. The fact that he is not hardly brings a tear to my eye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
"Domestically unpopular" by what yardstick was the measurement taken?Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
"virulently anti-western despot is gone" he didn't want to bankrupt his country as the "saviours" have done to their own.
"curried favor with Libyan oil (at the expense of Russia and China)" you have copies of the "contracts" which backup your assertion?
"certainly some lives lost", "none of 'ours'"- ok to kill the fuzzie wuzies in you book?
"Not a bad result for a dirty business like war" I seem to remember GWB announcing the end of a war a little prematurely some years ago, before the war was "over"
Most Libyans are glad Q is gone, there is no question about that. Same goes with 'us'.
Bringing up Iraq merely highlights how well Libya has turned out in comparison. :)
You have evidence that he used "air power" against the "unarmed civilians"?Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
The Libyan Government offered a ceasefire/negotiations 7 times, all rejected by the "crusader coalition".
Cameron has just said in Parliament that he wants the truth about PC Yvonne Fletcher. Be careful what you wish for!
right, I am not aware of a survey done in that regard, when was that survey conducted ? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
you mean like Bush "Mission Accomplished" ? it's not over yet, like Iraq, there is a big chance for a civil war. You are being overly naive here.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
By what yardstick are you measuring that "most Libyans" are glad?Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
Who are you including in "us"?
"Libya turned out" Oh yes wonderful.
Armed gangs on the streets, billions of $ being parachuted to unelected terrorists, Libyan infrastructure bombed to eternity, the realisation by the world that the words of the members of the Libyan Contact Group, the corrupt politicians and UN president are lies. The recognition that the UN is now part of the wild west strategy of the western elites.
What a legacy for people to look up to.
Well, you can be a part of the Qadaffi fan club if you want there fella's.
He certainly had fairly unique taste in fashion, bodyguards and hotel accomodation. :mid:
Will he surrender- or d'ya think they'll bury him at sea like Osama? :)
Some credibility to your previous assertions might be gained if you answered some of queries, by myself and others, on the claims you have made.
Somehow I doubt that very much as the majority of muzzies have great difficulty understanding anything that isn't in line with their twisted interpretation of their book!Quote:
Originally Posted by OhOh
^^ I'm not an avid follower of matters Libyan tbh, so don't expect "issues" standard input from me. The best single source I read was from a reporter from a west african nation, who was in Libya for several months. Through a very oppressive climate of fear, he was able to get many insights and accounts that Qadaffi was widely hated- but also widely feared. Can I find it now- can I hell. Oh well.
But heres one from The Guardian, that tells you quite a bit what life on the ground in Tripoli was like with the Colonel in charge. Basically, in Tripoli people other than Qadaffi loyalists had to keep their head down. Libya's other two largest cities were overwhelmingly anti Qadaffi, of course.
Libyans fear the scorpion sting of Gaddafi's informers
The violence and suspicion that reigns on Tripoli's streets catches Xan Rice and a journalistic colleague in its sway;
Libyans fear the scorpion sting of Gaddafi's informers | World news | The Guardian
In the absence of any Polls as such, the most compelling evidence is events on the ground there- the speed with which the regime ultimately fell, the mercenary soldiers from black africa, the many defections by Q's inner circle, the whispered conversations with journo's by terrified citizens, the 'rentacrowd' demonstrations by supporters (several who admitted it to journalists, they were there for the money or via coercion), the jubilation in Tripoli when the regime fell. The fact he was hated in the east is manifest, but it doesn't seem much different in Tripoli.
But you feel able to comment on the issue from your "gut" feel no doubt?Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
Two Europeans wandering around on a "holiday" day with camera, satellite phone, in the middle of a war zone! No not suspicios at all, tell that to MI5.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
More of your "gut" feelings or absorbed propaganda?Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
I am not concerned about your true feelings regarding the war; just the way the trite is regurgitated without any real knowledge.
TRIPOLI/AGADEZ, Niger, Sept 6 (Reuters) - Scores of Libyan army vehicles have crossed the desert frontier into Niger in what may be a dramatic, secretly negotiated bid by Muammar Gaddafi to seek refuge in a friendly African state, military sources from France and Niger told Reuters on Tuesday.
Several hours later, Al Jazeera television reported that rebels had struck a deal with delegates from the Gaddafi holdout town of Bani Walid, 150 km (90 miles) south of Tripoli, to enter it without fighting later on Tuesday.
The pan-Arab news channel, citing the anti-Gaddafi forces, said the fighters were expected to enter the town after the deal is formalised, which would likely be around midday.
Bani Walid has been one of the main remaining pockets of Gaddafi resistance in the country.
The convoy of between 200 and 250 vehicles was given an escort by the army of Niger, an impoverished and landlocked former French colony to the south of Libya, and might, according to a French military source, be joined by Gaddafi en route for neighbouring Burkina Faso, which has offered him asylum.
It was not clear where the 69-year-old former leader was. He has broadcast defiance since being forced into hiding two weeks ago, and has previously vowed to die fighting on Libyan soil.
Gaddafi's son Saif al-Islam, the heir apparent before the uprising which ended his father's 42 years of personal rule two weeks ago, also was considering joining the convoy, the French source added. France played a leading role in the war against Gaddafi and such a large Libyan military convoy could hardly have moved safely without the knowledge and agreement of NATO air forces.
Sources told Reuters that France may have brokered an arrangement between the new Libyan government and Gaddafi.
But a spokesperson for the French foreign ministry in Paris could not confirm the report of the convoy's arrival in the northern Niger desert city of Agadez nor any offer to Gaddafi, who with Saif al-Islam is wanted for crimes against humanity by the International Criminal Court at The Hague.
Officials in other Western governments and in Libya's new ruling council were not immediately available for comment.
The sources said the convoy, probably including officers from army units based in the south of Libya, may have looped through Algeria rather than crossing the Libyan-Niger frontier directly. It arrived late on Monday near the northern city of Agadez. Algeria last week took in Gaddafi's wife, daughter and two other sons, angering the rebels who ended his 42-year rule.
"HIGH SPIRITS"
NATO warplanes and reconnaissance aircraft have been scouring Libya's deserts for large convoys of vehicles that may be carrying the other Gaddafis, making it unlikely that it could have crossed the border without some form of deal being struck.
Libya's new rulers have said they want to try Gaddafi before, possibly, handing him over to the International Criminal Court (ICC), which has charged him with crimes against humanity.
Gaddafi's fugitive spokesman Moussa Ibrahim said on Monday that the former ruler was in good health and good spirits somewhere in Libya. "Muammar Gaddafi is in excellent health and in very, very high spirits," Ibrahim said in remarks broadcast on television.
"He is in a place that will not be reached by those fractious groups, and he is in Libya," Ibrahim told Arrai TV.
The head of Gaddafi's security brigades, Mansour Dhao, along with more than 10 other Libyans, crossed into Niger on Sunday, two Niger officials had said earlier on Monday.
The French military source said he had been told the commander of Libya's southern forces, General Ali Khana, may also be in Niger, not far from the Libyan border.
He said he had been told that Gaddafi and Saif al-Islam would join Khana and catch up with the convoy should they choose to accept Burkina Faso's offer of exile.
Burkina Faso, also once a French colony and a former recipient of large amounts of Libyan aid, offered Gaddafi exile about two weeks ago but has also recognised the rebel National Transitional Council (NTC) as Libya's government.
Burkinabe Foreign Minister Yipene Djibril Bassolet said that Gaddafi could go into exile in his country even though it is a signatory of the ICC treaty.
Gaddafi has said he is ready to fight to the death on Libyan soil, although there have been a number of reports that he might seek refuge in one of the African nations on whom he once lavished some of Libya's oil wealth.
His spokesman Ibrahim said: "We will prevail in this struggle until victory ... We are still strong, and we can turn the tables over against those traitors and NATO allies."
BESIEGED TOWN
Last week, a senior NTC military commander said he believed Gaddafi was in Bani Walid, along with Saif al-Islam. Libyan forces have massed outside the town and built a field hospital in preparation for a possible last stand.
Some NTC officials said they had information that Saif al-Islam had fled Bani Walid on Saturday for the southern deserts that lead to the Niger and Algerian borders.
On-off talks involving tribal elders from Bani Walid and a fog of contradictory messages in recent days, reflected the complexities of dismantling the remnants of Gaddafi's rule and building a new political system.
At a military checkpoint some 60 km (40 miles) north of the town on the road to the capital, Abdallah Kanshil, who is running talks for the interim government, told journalists a peaceful handover was coming soon. Nevertheless, a dozen vehicles carrying NTC fighters arrived at the checkpoint.
"The surrender of the city is imminent," he said on Monday. "It is a matter of avoiding civilian casualties. Some snipers have surrendered their weapons ... Our forces are ready."
Similar statements have been made for days, however. With communications cut, there was no word from inside Bani Walid.
But 20 km closer to the town, NTC forces built a field hospital and installed 10 volunteer doctors to prepare for the possibility that Gaddafi loyalists would not give up.
"The presence of pro-Gaddafi forces in Bani Walid is the main problem. This is their last fight," said Mohamed Bin Dalla, one of the doctors. "If Bani Walid is resolved peacefully then other remaining conflicts will be also be resolved peacefully."
Forces loyal to the National Transitional Council are also trying to squeeze Gaddafi loyalists out of his hometown of Sirte, on the coast, and a swathe of territory in the desert. (Reporting by Mohammed Abbas and Alex Dziadosz in Tripoli, Sherine El Madany in Ras Lanuff, Emma Farge in Benghazi, Marie-Louise Gumuchian, Barry Malone and Alastair Macdonald in Tunis, Sami Aboudi, Amena Bakr and Omar Fahmy in Cairo, Abdoulaye Massalatchi and Nathalie Prevost in Agadez and Richard Valdmanis in Dakar; Writing by Barry Malone; Editing by Alastair Macdonald and Michael Roddy)
Link
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhOh
The "evidence" against Q and his regime is so overwhelming and consistent from multiple sources, but what is the point of anyone even attempting a discussion with someone who gushes, cut and paste anti western propaganda...ad nauseaum..while at the same time referring to every reasonable report (neutral or otherwise) as "propaganda"
....and where do you get your "real knowledge"? oh righ...Q's PR guys....sorry I forgot.
The "evidence" is usually quotes from TNC terrorist commanders who have been shown on many occasions to, shall I say, "embellish" the facts with proven lies..Quote:
Originally Posted by koman
The "reasonable" reports likewise.
I don't precede my "inside knowledge" with phrases like "I'm not an avid follower of matters Libyan tbh" - Sabang
Knowledge can be found in many forms and places, if they don't fit your mindset so be it.
So I am to believe the "cut and paste pro western propaganda" which, as I have said above, is generally from the TNC terrorists.
Yes, most of what has been "published" is propaganda, in my opinion.
Just look at the Reuters report posted by harrybarracuda above your post. 90% of the "quotes" i.e. the supposed facts are from TNC terrorist commanders.
The report alleges 200+ military vehicles are moving around in convoy. The report also alleges that NATO is "scouring the desert" for convoys, yet this 250+ convoy of military vehicles somehow has managed to evade any NATO attacks. NATO has in the past few months attacked every Libyan Government military vehicle from a pickup upwards. They must have thought they were TNC terrorist vehicles.:confused:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MI07Ak01.html
"Enough about The Big G's downfall. Now comes the real nitty-gritty; Afghanistan 2.0, Iraq 2.0, or a mix of both.
The "NATO rebels" have always made sure they don't want foreign occupation. But the North Atlantic Treaty Organization - which made the victory possible - can't control Libya without boots on the ground. So multiple scenarios are now being gamed in NATO's headquarters in Mons, Belgium - under a United Nations velvet cushion.
According to already leaked plans, sooner or later there may be troops from Persian Gulf monarchies and friendly allies such as Jordan and especially NATO member Turkey, also very keen to bag large commercial contracts. Hardly any African nations will be part of it - Libya now having being "relocated" to Arabia.
The Transitional National Council (TNC) will go for it - or forced to go for it - if, or when, Libya spirals into chaos. Still it will be an extremely hard sell - as the wildly disparate factions of "NATO rebels" are frantically consolidating their fiefdoms, and getting ready to turn on each other.
There's no evidence so far the TNC - apart from genuflecting in the altar of NATO member nations - has any clue about managing a complex political landscape inside Libya.
Guns and no roses
Everyone in Libya is now virtually armed to its teeth. The economy is paralyzed. A nasty catfight over who will control Libya's unfrozen billions of dollars is already on.
The Obeidi tribe is furious with the TNC as there's been no investigation over who killed rebel army commander Abdul Fattah Younis on July 29. The tribals have already threatened to exact justice with their own hands. Chief suspect in the killing is the Abu Ubaidah bin Jarrah brigade - a hardcore Islamic fundamentalist militia that has rejected NATO intervention and refused to fight under the TNC, branding both TNC and NATO as "infidels".
Then there's the drenched-in-oil question; When will the Libya Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG)-al-Qaeda nebula organize their own putsch to take out the TNC?
All over Tripoli, there are graphic echoes of militia hell in Iraq. Former US Central Intelligence Agency asset and former "war on terror" detainee, General Abdelhakim Belhaj - issued from the Derna circle, the ground zero of Islamic fundamentalism in Libya - is the leader of the brand new Tripoli Military Council.
Accusations have already been hurled by other militias that he did not fight for the "liberation" of Tripoli so he must go - whether or not the TNC says so. This essentially means that the LIFG-al-Qaeda nebula sooner or later may be fighting an arm of the upcoming guerrilla war - against the TNC, other militias, or both.
In Tripoli,
rebels from Zintan, in the western mountains, control the airport.
The central bank, Tripoli's port and the Prime Minister's office are being controlled by rebels from Misrata.
Berbers from the mountain town of Yafran control Tripoli's central square, now spray-painted "Yafran Revolutionaries". All these territories are clearly marked as a warning.
As the TNC, as a political unit, already behaves like a lame duck; and as the militias will simply not vanish - it's not hard to picture Libya also as a new Lebanon; the war in Lebanon began when each neighborhood in Beirut was carved up between Sunnis, Shi'ites, Christian Maronites, Nasserites and Druse.
The Lebanonization of Libya, on top of it, includes the deadly Islamic temptation - which is spreading like a virus all across the Arab Spring. At least 600 Salafis who fought in the Sunni Iraqi resistance against the US were liberated from Abu Salim prison by the rebels. It's easy to picture them profiting from the widespread looting of kalashnikovs and shoulder-launched Soviet Sam-7 anti-aircraft missiles to bolster their own hardcore Islamist militia - following their own agenda, and their own guerrilla war.
Welcome to our racist 'democracy'
The African Union (AU) will not recognize the TNC; in fact, it charges the NATO rebels of indiscriminate killing of black Africans, all bundled up as "mercenaries".
According to the AU's Jean Ping, " ... the TNC seems to confuse black people with mercenaries ... [They seem to think] all blacks are mercenaries. If you do that it means one-third of the population of Libya which is black is also mercenaries." The small port of Sayad, 25 kilometers west of Tripoli, has become a refugee camp for black Africans terrified of "free Libya". Doctors Without Borders found out about the camp on August 27. Refugees say that since February they started to be expelled by the owners of the businesses they were working in, accused of being mercenaries - and they have been harassed ever since.
According to rebel mythology, the Muammar Gaddafi regime was essentially protected by murtazaka ("mercenaries"). The reality is that Gaddafi did employ a contingent of black African fighters - from Chad, Sudan and Tuaregs from Niger and Mali. The majority of black Sub-Saharan Africans in Libya are migrant workers holding legal jobs.
To see where this thing is going, one has to look at the desert. The immense southern Libyan desert was not conquered by NATO. The TNC has no access to virtually all of Libya's water and a lot of oil.
Gaddafi has a chance of "working the desert", of negotiating with a number of tribes, to buy or consolidate their allegiance and organize a sustained guerrilla war.
Algeria is involved in a vicious fight against al-Qaeda in the Maghreb. Algeria's vast, porous, 1,000 kilometer-long border with Libya remains open. Gaddafi can easily base his guerrillas in the southern desert with a safe haven in Algeria - or even in Niger. The TNC is already terrified of this possibility.
NATO's "humanitarian" operation has unleashed at least 30,000 bombs over Libya over these past few months. It's safe to say that many thousands of Libyans have been killed by the bombing. The bombing never stops; soon NATO may be targeting some of those - civilians or not - it was in theory "protecting" until a few days ago.
A defeated Big G can reveal himself to be even more dangerous than a Big G in power. The real war starts now. It will be infinitely more dramatic - and tragic. Because now it will be a Darwinian, northern African, war of all against all."
http://www.septicisle.info/
"Don't worry, Peter Gibson will get to the bottom of it.
Well, at least we now know why Moussa Koussa was allowed to leave our septic isle so swiftly. When he arrived here at the end of the March having defected from Gaddafi's regime, one of the few things that he wasn't accused of was of a long-term convivial relationship with MI6, let alone being on such friendly terms with the secret intelligence service that it appears he and Sir Mark Allen were the equivalent of best mates. It would have always been bad form to encourage someone to defect only then to charge them with some sort of offence once they arrived; it's now apparent there was never any chance of something like that happening, despite our glorious coalition intimating that all options were open. Koussa, interestingly, left for Qatar, one of the few Arab nations to provide direct military assistance to the rebels, more than suggesting he has friends in high places there also.
The collapse of dictatorships will naturally mean a certain amount of unpleasantness for those overseas both in government and business who set aside any qualms they had about human rights to deal with such nations, but they can always reassure themselves with the knowledge that they did so only to indirectly help the poor people trapped under totalitarian regimes. That's clearly the only thing Sir Mark Allen had in mind when he went in one hop from head of counter-terrorism at MI6, resigning after he was overlooked for the top job, to special adviser at BP, who subsequently signed a massive oil exploration deal with Libya. MI6 had after all played a major role in successfully persuading Gaddafi to abandon his WMD programmes; as the Iraq war has taught us, only countries without such material get bombed or invaded. Such victories requiring mutual understanding, respect, and sharing of intelligence.
It's hardly a surprise then to learn that both the CIA and MI6 quickly became bosom buddies with the self-same individuals who previously had been among their chief antagonists. We already knew that the CIA especially had been co-operating most assiduously with their counterparts in Libya, having allowed one of their previously most prized detainees, Ibn Sheikh al-Libi, to return to his native land, where he sadly "committed suicide" in the notorious Abu Salim prison two years ago. Neither is it really earth-shattering that MI6 were happy to assist in the rendition of Abu Munthir, former deputy emir of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, from Hong Kong. Allegiances in the world of intelligence shift by the day: that, according to David Shayler (when he was credible, it should be stressed), MI6 had funded the group's attempt to assassinate Gaddafi in the 90s only to later turn over some of those it must have had contact with is just the way these things go.
Much more shocking are the allegations that the Libyans were being provided with details of the activities of dissidents in this country, with all the potential implications that has for any relatives back home. Much was being made earlier in the year of how those taking part in demonstrations against the crackdown in Syria were being photographed by diplomats, with their families coming under pressure from the regime as a result. It's one thing for a regime's overseas intelligence agency to keep tabs on dissidents; it's quite another for their host country to do it for them. What's more, it breaches the very code, not to mention law which our security services keep insisting they have consistently abided by: Sir John Sawers said last year that if they believed action taken by themselves will lead to torture they would not do so, even if it meant terrorist activity would take place as a result. That certainly doesn't seem to have impeded the passing of such information in this instance.
We can of course only guess at what would be uncovered if our intelligence archives were opened up in their entirety in a similar manner, and not just provided to establishment historians to give clean bills of health to (surely to independent academics who have reached entirely appropriate conclusions based on the evidence before them? Ed.). In any case, we have the next best thing: the Gibson inquiry."
Here is one of todays "stories", it can't be called anything else - there is very little, like 0%, substantiated fact. This is one of the 75,000 instances of this story available on the web. One of your "reasonable" reports no doubt. The headline photograph shows tanks, the report refers to several dozen, is that 24, pickup trucks. Not tanks, not lorries and not armoured vehicals.Quote:
Originally Posted by koman
Libya: large convoy 'heading towards Niger's capital' - Telegraph
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2011/09/508.jpg
A convoy of pro-Gaddafi tanks
"Abdoulaye Harouna, owner of the Agadez Info newspaper, said he saw the group arrive Monday in several dozen pickup trucks. He said they were headed south toward the capital, Niamey.
At the head of the convoy, he said, was Tuareg rebel leader Rissa ag Boula, a native of Niger who led a failed war of independence on behalf of ethnic Tuareg nomads a decade ago. He then sought refuge in Libya and was believed to be fighting on behalf of Col Gaddafi.
It was not immediately clear if the convoy included any members of the Gaddafi family or other high-level members of his regime.
Foreign officials said they did not have any information on the convoy.
French Foreign Ministry spokesman Bernard Valero said the ministry did not know who was in the vehicles ................"
This is one of many "stories" published in MSM and reported in the TV/satellite news broadcasts.
The looting of gold and cash from Sirte, on the Mediterranean coast, banks, transported in another convoy, 1,000 miles through Libya into Niger/Burkina Faso.
The TNC terrorists purport to have been in control of Libya for the last week or so. NATO say it's nothing to do with them.
God help the Libyans when they lose it.
Oooh look, a Gaddafi home movie....
Gaddafi and family: home movie from 2005 - Channel 4 News
Bloody hell, he must go through the Grecian 2,000,000.
Libyan fighters say Gaddafi 'surrounded'
The hunt for toppled Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi goes on, and the man leading the search has said the fugitive leader was last tracked heading for the country's southern border.
A spokesman for Tripoli's new military council said on Wednesday that the fighters have surrounded Gaddafi, and it is only a matter of time until he is "captured or killed".
Anis Sharif would not say where Gaddafi had been found, but said he was still in Libya and had been tracked using high technology and human intelligence.
Gaddafi is trapped within a 60Km radius area surrounded by rebels, he said. "He can't get out."
Gaddafi, who was removed from power in August after a February uprising against his rule, is believed to be travelling in a convoy of about 10 cars and may be using a tent as shelter, Hisham Buhagiar, who is co-ordinating the National Transitional Council's [NTC] efforts to find the former Libyan leader, said.
"It is the tent. We know that he does not want to stay in a house, so he stays in a tent. People say the cars came, and then they made a tent," he said, adding that his sources had not seen Gaddafi themselves.
Talks stalled
Meanwhile, Libya's fighters are still working to gain full control of the country almost three weeks after the fall of Tripoli.
Fighters have been engaged in prolonged negotiations to convince representatives from Bani Walid, about 150km southeast of the capital Tripoli, that there would be no retributions if the town surrendered peacefully.
But the representatives, upon returning to the town to deliver the message, were fired at and forced to retreat to NTC territory on Tuesday.
Thousands of NTC fighters have been camping outside Bani Walid, one of Gaddafi's last strongholds. They have also built a field hospital and deployed 10 volunteer doctors to prepare for the possibility of a fight.
Al Jazeera's James Bays, reporting from Tripoli, said: "The fighters are massing around Bani Walid in order to enter the town."
Abdullah Kinshil, NTC's chief negotiator in Bani Walid, has said Saif al-Islam Gaddafi was seen there with supporters on Tuesday.
Our correspondent said: "There are reports of Saif Al-Islam's presence in Bani Walid rallying forces against the NTC."
"There are also reports of his brother Saadi's presence in the town. But the information have not been independently verified," he said.
Fighters are also preparing to move towards Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte.
For now, talks have been stalled and they are awaiting orders to take the towns from Gaddafi loyalists.
Libyan convoys
Amid the Libyan fighters' push to gain full control of this North African country, news came on Tuesday of convoys of Gaddafi loyalists, including his security chief, fleeing across the Sahara into Niger.
The United States said it believed the convoy was carrying senior members of Gaddafi's entourage, and urged Niger to detain anyone liable for prosecution for alleged crimes committed during the uprising against the deposed Libyan leader.
Leon Panetta, the US defence secretary, said Gaddafi was "on the run" but Washington said it had no reason to believe the fugitive leader had left Libya, something his spokesman Moussa Ibrahim confirmed.
"He is in Libya. He is safe, he is very healthy, in high morale," Ibrahim told Reuters by telephone from an undisclosed location.
The convoy included officers from Libya's southern army battalions and pro-Gaddafi Tuareg fighters and is likely to have crossed from Libya into Algeria before entering Niger, sources said.
Abdou Labo, the Niger's minister of internal affairs, however, denied that a Libyan convoy had entered his country. But he confirmed that Niger had given asylum to Gaddafi's internal security chief Abdullah Mansoor on humanitarian grounds.
Al Jazeera's Bays said information about the specifics of the convoy were contradictory, but it was certain that a convoy had crossed.
"What is significant is that none of the reports we have heard so far says anything about sighting of Gaddafi and his sons in the convoy."
Burkina Faso, a former recipient of large amounts of Libyan aid, had reportedly offered Gaddafi exile about two weeks ago, but has also recognised the NTC as Libya's government.
On Tuesday, however, Burkina Faso's government said it had not received a request for exile from Gaddafi and the deposed leader was not expected in the West African state.
"Gaddafi in not in Burkina Faso and we have not been approached for any exile demand. Burkina (Faso) has not been informed of Gaddafi's arrival. We are not expecting him," Alain Edouard Traore, communications minister, said on state television.
Hundreds of missiles go missing from regime's abandoned arms dumps - Africa, World - The Independent
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2011/09/589.jpg
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2011/09/590.jpg
Now at a car boot sale in your oasis , sunday 10 till 4
"The long metal crates strewn on the grounds of the warehouse were empty. Hundreds of surface-to-air missiles, craved by terrorist groups and "rogue states", had disappeared in the past few days, looted from one of Libya's overflowing arms dumps.
Among the missiles taken away were 480 Russian-built SA-24s, designed for use against modern warplanes, which the US had been attempting to block from falling into Iranian hands, and the older SA-7s and 9s, capable of bringing down commercial airliners, which al-Qa'ida has been striving to obtain.
As Libya's bloody civil war reaches its conclusion, myriad bunkers and barracks containing the regime's weaponry, from Kalashnikovs to missiles, armoured cars and tanks, have been left unguarded, many to be stripped bare by militia fighters and the public.
The numbers involved are far larger than the caches that armed the insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan. And in Libya there are even fewer guards at these sites. Unlike those two fronts of the "war on terror", there are no foreign troops present in Libya, and the opposition forming the new government has its resources tied up attempting to subdue the remaining loyalist strongholds and repairing infrastructure to safeguard the arsenals.
The ransacking of the depots containing missiles has set alarms ringing among security agencies in America and Europe. The SA-24 "Grinch" surface-to-air missile targets fighter-bombers, helicopter gunships such as Apaches, and even Cruise missiles, and can strike at as high as 11,000ft. Washington had lobbied the Russians to block sales to Hugo Chavez in Venezuela and to Tehran. The SA-7s and 9s are older but can destroy civilian jets or be used against military targets such as the drones increasingly employed by the US. Peter Bouckaert, emergencies director for Human Rights Watch, charting the arms depots, said: "The problem is pretty huge. There are around 20,000 surface-to-air missiles in Libya and a hell of a lot of them are missing. The Western agencies are obviously pretty concerned. This lot can turn the whole of North Africa into a no-fly zone."
Nato air strikes destroyed an estimated 600 missiles, radar systems and storage facilities in the course of the campaign. In response, regime forces moved some of the weaponry away from military into civilian areas, where they could be accessed once the rebels gained control.
The missiles found to be missing yesterday had been taken from the Tripoli headquarters of the 32nd Brigade, under the command of Gaddafi's son, Khamis al-Gaddafi, to a commercial storage area. Although the missiles had gone, there were still dozens of cases of mortar rounds, artillery shells, rocket-propelled grenades and rifle ammunition left in the vast room.
Across the road, in an open field, lay piled-up boxes of anti-personnel mines, a weapon which has already caused a series of deaths, many among children, in districts where hostilities have ended. Some 12,000 land mines were reported missing yesterday. Ian Martin, the UN's special adviser on Libya, said: "Proliferation of weapons is a major concern. We are taking this extremely seriously." Unmas (United Nations Mine Action Service) is supposed to be taking the lead on this matter but, due to security concerns, it has only one member of staff in the Libyan capital.
There is increasing evidence of arms from Libya slipping into other countries. Abdelkader Messahel, an Algerian Foreign Minister, claimed al-Qa'ida fighters are "reinforcing themselves with arms coming from Libya". The Chad government has reported that SAM-7s have arrived there from Libya, while the authorities in Niger are trying to track down consignments of Semtex, the plastic explosive once favoured by the IRA, heading for dissident Tuareg tribes.
At the town of Tarhuna, near Bani Walid, more than 100 Russian-made tanks and armoured personnel carriers are parked in hangars.
A group of armed local men had come to see whether they could make use of the armour. "These have been here for a long time," said Mahmood Ishmail Zubeidi.
"We thought maybe our villages could have our own tanks to protect the revolution. We have even got two drivers. But all the fuel has been drained. So we are going to Tripoli to get ourselves some other things like AKs [AK-47 assault rifles]. Maybe we'll get some machine guns as well.""
Way to go.
Take one quiet country, stir up a revolution, bomb the legitimate government back to the hills, let 5 or 6 warring factions take over and distribute arms to anyone with a truck.
I really don't know what your point is OhOh. We all know that "stories" and "reports" of all kinds emerge during a conflict like this. As far as this particular "covoy" story is concerened, all the media reports I heard/saw made it quite clear that it was just a story and that nothing was confirmed. Some journalists speculated a bit on who/what it might be, but that's what we all do.....and none of it was being reported as "hard news". Eventually more information is available and the reports are updated as fresh information come in. The original "story" often completely changes after a while....there is nothing sinister in that. If something is going on...it is reported..sometimes accurately, and sometimes not. Even in non hostile enviroments, stories break, and quickly evolve and change. In a war zone it is always much more so.Quote:
Originally Posted by OhOh
News is a competitive business and the 24/7 networks have to keep getting new material otherwise they would have nothing to say.
None of that means that there is some big propaganda campaign going on. It's just the way "news" works these days. On the spot reporters are not in the business of generating propaganda. They are just reporting whatever they see and hear, sometimes first hand, sometimes not. The spin and propaganda developes later and is produced by a different group of people.
Why do you continue to support Q's regiem as the "legitimate" government of Libya and insist that he has been the subject of a "crusade"
The very use of the term "crusade" and "crusader coalition" is inflamatory and un nessary. NATO pilots are not crusaders. There is no religion or religious belief involved There is no rescue of Jerusalem from the hoards of Islam ...and the people who have done the grunt work are Libyans who are definitely not crusaders..:) nor do they seem to share your view that Q is their "legitimate" government.
Q "liberated" his country by force and has ruled it with an iron fist for over four decades; wiping out the slightest whiff of opposition through brutal repression. Most, if not all of his "support" both internal and external has been bought and paid for with hard cash. His own "ministers" deserted in droves and he has been driven from power by his own people....whoever they may be and whatever divisions may exist between them after the dust settles.
A fitting end for a troublesome and unpredictable dictator who played too many people off against each other for too long, and who did not have the common sense to know his time was up.
The original disorganized rabble that emerged from Benghazi seems to have evolved into a tolerably well organized rabble that has managed to avoid most of the mass revenge killing and looting that was predicted. Looks like the Brit and French speical forces advisors (who must have trained them by phone, because we know they were definately not on the ground in Libya..:)) did a pretty good job of stopping them from firing all of their ammo into the air until the battle was won....and the NATO pilots somehow managed to miss most of the traditional hospital and orphanage targets,and destroyed military assets and infrastructure instead.....but I'm sure reliable sources like the Burkina Faso independent news service will be telling us otherwise.....:)