What the fock's USrael on about?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surasak

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RDN

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surasak

Bad intelligence? Mistakes by sighters or pilots? ...

---

OK, I'll bite - what do you think was the purpose in the Israeli's minds of dropping a bomb on - sorry, in the road outside - that building in Qana?

---

...Can't you accept the fact that mistakes get made? That not every piece of munitions gets to the intended target, or, that perhaps the intelligence isn't always right?

---

:D :D :D I don't know what's going on here! One of us isn't reading this right. The point you are making here is EXACTLY the point I'm trying to make: that mistakes get made, that bombs go astray, that intelligence isn't always right and that unfortunately innocent civilians get killed.

How on earth did we both get into this argument when we are both saying the same thing?

I'm laughing here. This is funny! :D :D :D

Quote:

---

I have a sister and she has all the freedom she needs.She is gonna go to high school next year and after that Iam gonna support her studies.

---

Respect!

A friend of mine owns a beautyparlor. He told me he will not take any more muslims girls (mostly Turks) for apprenticeship.
Most of them are smart, clean, dependable and willing to learn. But then come the "Men". After a year or so most of them have to stop their apprenticeship because Daddy is ready to sell, or should I say marry them, to some Turk in Turkey who doesn't speak a word of german.
I guess you got another nurturer, caretaker, mother, or should we just call her a slave.
Life has just ended here for these poor girls. Don't forget we are talking about Germany here.

But the problem is making it look like everyone there was having a nice day and randomly a bomb just fell out of the sky. The fact of the matter is that someone intentionally dropped the weapon.

The only way to excuse such negligence would be in the case of a really bizarre or gross mechanical malfunction that could not be prevented.

See, if Hezbollah claimed that they were aiming for soldiers and a rocket instead hit a civilian nobody would buy that. Everyone would jmup down their throats claiming it was a lie, that they only intentionally target civilians. But a precision guided bomb/missile dropped by a professional supposedly using precision intelligence kills many civilians and everyone wants to write it off as if it's no big deal. Nobody calls for the heads of the pilot(s) or intelligence operatives who make mistakes whether accidentally or intentionally because it gets covered up by the magical shrowd of 'self defense' and 'collateral damage.'

Even in wartime people need to be held accountable for mistakes that lead to civilian deaths just as we tend to put drunk drivers in prison when they kill people whether the intent to kill was present or not. It is imperative that the attacking force try to protect the civilians even if it means heavier combat casualties. Everytime a civilian dies during combat (regardless of who causes it) the person responsible should be tried for reckless manslaughter and convicted if the evidence supports it.

At the very least any soldier who commits manslaughter ought to suffer the same consequences as a drunk driver who kills.

This is a direct result of Israel trying to use inaccurate weapons (airplane, artillery) to avoid Israeli combat fatalities. So, instead, they recklessly kill Lebanese civilians in a hit-or-miss attempt to kill guerillas. This is what makes people angry about the Israeli response in this war.

Don't you think that ground forces would be less likely to kill a group of civilians since they would have eyes on the immediate vicinity and able to make such a better judgment than someone flying quickly over a building?

Accidents don't just happen. There are causes for them. The fact that cannot be changed is that 700+ Lebanese are dead due to reckless actions of the Israeli forces. Whether it's intentional or not doesn't change the fact that those people are now dead and they deserve some justice. The end result is the same. Israel must bear responsibility for these deaths just as you'd want Hezbollah to bear responsibility for Israeli civilian deaths.

And the fact of the matter is that in most cases when Israelis attack the civilian death ratio is very disproportionate to the response. So, it's sort of hard to believe them when they say the are careful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mhz

Would care to tell??

---

Do you believe in the Old Testament?


P.S. I don't !

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mhz

Another question that has always bothered me is HOW DID ISRAEL CAME INTO BEING???

Who is responsible for the creation of Israel??

I really dont know the answer.:p

---

Israel is the very embodiment of Jewish continuity: It is the only nation on earth that inhabits the same land, bears the same name, speaks the same language, and worships the same God that it did 3,000 years ago. You dig the soil and you find pottery from Davidic times, coins from Bar Kokhba, and 2,000-year-old scrolls written in a script remarkably like the one that today advertises ice cream at the corner candy store.

If that were true then the Mandate and Partition wouldn't have been necessary.

What happened between then and 1948?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surasak

But the problem is making it look like everyone there was having a nice day and randomly a bomb just fell out of the sky. The fact of the matter is that someone intentionally dropped the weapon.

The only way to excuse such negligence would be in the case of a really bizarre or gross mechanical malfunction that could not be prevented.

See, if Hezbollah claimed that they were aiming for soldiers and a rocket instead hit a civilian nobody would buy that. Everyone would jump down their throats claiming it was a lie, that they only intentionally target civilians. But a precision guided bomb/missile dropped by a professional supposedly using precision intelligence kills many civilians and everyone wants to write it off as if it's no big deal. Nobody calls for the heads of the pilot(s) or intelligence operatives who make mistakes whether accidentally or intentionally because it gets covered up by the magical shroud of 'self defense' and 'collateral damage.'

Even in wartime people need to be held accountable for mistakes that lead to civilian deaths just as we tend to put drunk drivers in prison when they kill people whether the intent to kill was present or not. It is imperative that the attacking force try to protect the civilians even if it means heavier combat casualties. Everytime a civilian dies during combat (regardless of who causes it) the person responsible should be tried for reckless manslaughter and convicted if the evidence supports it.

At the very least any soldier who commits manslaughter ought to suffer the same consequences as a drunk driver who kills.

This is a direct result of Israel trying to use inaccurate weapons (airplane, artillery) to avoid Israeli combat fatalities. So, instead, they recklessly kill Lebanese civilians in a hit-or-miss attempt to kill guerillas. This is what makes people angry about the Israeli response in this war.

Don't you think that ground forces would be less likely to kill a group of civilians since they would have eyes on the immediate vicinity and able to make such a better judgment than someone flying quickly over a building?

Accidents don't just happen. There are causes for them. The fact that cannot be changed is that 700+ Lebanese are dead due to reckless actions of the Israeli forces. Whether it's intentional or not doesn't change the fact that those people are now dead and they deserve some justice. The end result is the same. Israel must bear responsibility for these deaths just as you'd want Hezbollah to bear responsibility for Israeli civilian deaths.

And the fact of the matter is that in most cases when Israelis attack the civilian death ratio is very disproportionate to the response. So, it's sort of hard to believe them when they say the are careful.

---

Yes, the bomb was intentionally dropped on the road outside the building. The building then collapsed - half of it into the bomb crater. The Israelis say this is where a Katyusha rocket site was. But obviously, if it had been there, it was moved.

If Hezbollah claimed they were only aiming at Israeli troops, then sure we would all call them liars because their weapons cannot be aimed precisely enough. But nobody is writing it off as no big deal when the reverse happens. We are all angry that this group of people were left to shelter in that building instead of being given help to get out. Everyone got out of Qana after this tragedy, so where was the help before?

"reckless manslaughter"? Hmm, in England I believe it is still the case that you can get away with killing someone while drunk driving if there was no intent to kill - I'm not a lawyer, but I know a lot of people have lost loved ones due to drivers "losing control" of their car while being drunk, and the driver has sometimes not even been jailed. But this is a different subject and I don't want to get into this one. I don't think it can be applied to wars.

Soldiers who murder - as in some cases reported recently - should be tried and jailed if found guilty. I completely agree with that.

I can't believe you are saying that the Israeli bombs are inaccurate and yet you make no mention of the Hezbollah rockets. Sure, Israel wants to use their superior air power - why should they let the Hezbollah use their superior ground knowledge. They've been digging in for years!

I agree with your penultimate point:

Quote:

---

Israel must bear responsibility for these deaths just as you'd want Hezbollah to bear responsibility for Israeli civilian deaths.

---

But I don't agree with your last - this IS war and I believe Israel IS trying to minimise civilian casualties. I guess at some point it has to come down to "belief".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RDN

Yes, the bomb was intentionally dropped on the road outside the building. The building then collapsed - half of it into the bomb crater. The Israelis say this is where a Katyusha rocket site was. But obviously, if it had been there, it was moved.

---

Well, then, shouldn't the pilot make sure? Neither the Lebanese army nor Hezbollah have anti-aircraft missiles. This is sort of what I am alluring to when it comes to reasonable care in avoidance of civilian tragedies and death. What about the denial on the part of the Israeli navy prohibiting a ship in the Med. from resupplying American University's hospital with fuel oil? What about the bombing of power stations, bridges, etc. which are part of the civilian infrastructure? Are those accidents? Are deaths due to lack of electricity due to the bombing of power plants collateral damage?

Quote:

---

If Hezbollah claimed they were only aiming at Israeli troops, then sure we would all call them liars because their weapons cannot be aimed precisely enough.

---

That's right. So why it is a far superior force with the latest technology is killing civilians so recklessly? Is it better to fight with rockets since the civilian death toll is lower? Is the Israeli response to inaccurate rocket fire overdone?

Quote:

---

"reckless manslaughter"? Hmm, in England I believe it is still the case that you can get away with killing someone while drunk driving if there was no intent to kill - I'm not a lawyer, but I know a lot of people have lost loved ones due to drivers "losing control" of their car while being drunk, and the driver has sometimes not even been jailed. But this is a different subject and I don't want to get into this one. I don't think it can be applied to wars.

---

I think it should if we're taking about wanton recklessness when it comes to targeting and dropping bombs.

Criminal negligence is a key here. Is there a chance someone other than a guerilla might be harmed? Did the pilot physically see the rocket launcher and then drop the bomb? At least if there's a rocket launcher destroyed where the bomb gets dropped then there's an excuse. If the enemy is using highly mobile artillery then it makes little sense to use aircraft doesn't it?

Quote:

---

I can't believe you are saying that the Israeli bombs are inaccurate and yet you make no mention of the Hezbollah rockets.

---

I have said so many times. Rockets cannot be controlled once launched because they are primative. Pilots, on the other hand, have air superiority in Lebanon and should be making a run prior to execution to verify the target is indeed as described. The more accurate the weapon the lesser the chance should be for civilian deaths logically. That's why special forces use expensive weapons. To maximize accuracy and minimize collateral casualties.

Have you seen the aerial photos of Beirut not? Unconscionable destruction that is not right, warranted, or just. The Lebanese civilian death toll and infrastructure destruction is completely unwarranted and out of proportion compared to the minimal damage Israel has suffered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surasak

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RDN

Yes, the bomb was intentionally dropped on the road outside the building. The building then collapsed - half of it into the bomb crater. The Israelis say this is where a Katyusha rocket site was. But obviously, if it had been there, it was moved.

---

Well, then, shouldn't the pilot make sure? Neither the Lebanese army nor Hezbollah have anti-aircraft missiles. This is sort of what I am alluring to when it comes to reasonable care in avoidance of civilian tragedies and death.

---

I think you're asking too much of the Israelis here. Maybe they should take more care, but I'm sure they're thinking "Why should we, when the Hezbollah launch their rockets into any town or village?"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surasak

What about the denial on the part of the Israeli navy prohibiting a ship in the Med. from resupplying American University's hospital with fuel oil? What about the bombing of power stations, bridges, etc. which are part of the civilian infrastructure? Are those accidents? Are deaths due to lack of electricity due to the bombing of power plants collateral damage?

---

Sorry, I don't know much about the oli tanker or hospital situation, but I have seen the photos of the destruction of Lebanon, and agree that it is severe. I can only assume it is a ploy to force the Lebanese govt. to seek a ceasefire from Hezbollah to stop these bombing raids. It is probably the same tried and tested method of winning these wars that the Israelis use - put Lebanon back a few decades in terms of development so that its energy is focussed on recovery from the war rather than on attacking Israel again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surasak

Quote:

---

If Hezbollah claimed they were only aiming at Israeli troops, then sure we would all call them liars because their weapons cannot be aimed precisely enough.

---

That's right. So why it is a far superior force with the latest technology is killing civilians so recklessly? Is it better to fight with rockets since the civilian death toll is lower? Is the Israeli response to inaccurate rocket fire overdone?

---

I think "recklessly" is a subjective assessment. The fact that Hezbollahs' rockets are so crap and inaccurate does not mean that the Israelis should use them too. Don't forget, they got lucky a day or so ago and killed 11 or 12 Israeli soldiers in a kibbutz. I could almost hear the glee in Ray Carey's post when that happened. :mad:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surasak

Quote:

---

"reckless manslaughter"? Hmm, in England I believe it is still the case that you can get away with killing someone while drunk driving if there was no intent to kill - I'm not a lawyer, but I know a lot of people have lost loved ones due to drivers "losing control" of their car while being drunk, and the driver has sometimes not even been jailed. But this is a different subject and I don't want to get into this one. I don't think it can be applied to wars.

---

I think it should if we're taking about wanton recklessness when it comes to targeting and dropping bombs.

Criminal negligence is a key here. Is there a chance someone other than a guerilla might be harmed? Did the pilot physically see the rocket launcher and then drop the bomb? At least if there's a rocket launcher destroyed where the bomb gets dropped then there's an excuse. If the enemy is using highly mobile artillery then it makes little sense to use aircraft doesn't it?

---

As I said before, I think that's asking a lot. Maybe the rocket launcher was driven away minutes before the bomb was dropped? Who knows?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surasak

Quote:

---

I can't believe you are saying that the Israeli bombs are inaccurate and yet you make no mention of the Hezbollah rockets.

---

I have said so many times. Rockets cannot be controlled once launched because they are primative. Pilots, on the other hand, have air superiority in Lebanon and should be making a run prior to execution to verify the target is indeed as described. The more accurate the weapon the lesser the chance should be for civilian deaths logically. That's why special forces use expensive weapons. To maximize accuracy and minimize collateral casualties.

---

Point covered earlier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surasak

Have you seen the aerial photos of Beirut not? Unconscionable destruction that is not right, warranted, or just. The Lebanese civilian death toll and infrastructure destruction is completely unwarranted and out of proportion compared to the minimal damage Israel has suffered.

---

Agreed - the destruction is horrific, but I refer you to my previous answer. God! I sound like a Labour politician at question time. :(


I think we've covered a lot of points here, Surasak, and I think we understand each other a lot better.

Potentially disturbing images ahead:

CAN YOU HELP US , PLEASE! Do you know what kind of weapons causes this damage? :: from www.uruknet.info :: news from occupied Iraq - ch

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surasak

Potentially disturbing images ahead:

CAN YOU HELP US , PLEASE! Do you know what kind of weapons causes this damage? :: from www.uruknet.info :: news from occupied Iraq - ch

---

"I can forgive you for killing my sons, but I cannot forgive you for forcing me to kill your sons."

G.M.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surasak

Potentially disturbing images ahead:

CAN YOU HELP US , PLEASE! Do you know what kind of weapons causes this damage? :: from www.uruknet.info :: news from occupied Iraq - ch

---

Very disturbing indeed. Yes, we all want the war to stop. I hope it does soon.

Quote:

---

Iam sorry but I dont get the relation of this article to the people in middle east or Muslims or Islam??

---

Sayings of Ayatollah Khomeini:

A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister.

From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom,

News reports that PM Olmert has accepted the proposed cease fire.

Israeli PM has accepted cease-fire deal - Yahoo! News

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Quote:

---

I have a sister and she has all the freedom she needs.She is gonna go to high school next year and after that Iam gonna support her studies.

---

Respect!

A friend of mine owns a beautyparlor. He told me he will not take any more muslims girls (mostly Turks) for apprenticeship.
Most of them are smart, clean, dependable and willing to learn. But then come the "Men". After a year or so most of them have to stop their apprenticeship because Daddy is ready to sell, or should I say marry them, to some Turk in Turkey who doesn't speak a word of german.
I guess you got another nurturer, caretaker, mother, or should we just call her a slave.
Life has just ended here for these poor girls. Don't forget we are talking about Germany here.

---

Well I dont care about what the Turks think of women and their rights.I cant justify the actions of all Muslim nations.I can speak for myself and I never forced my sister or my father never forced my mother to put on a veil when going out.Infact my dad had several arguments with my mother cos my dad was against the veil in hot summer weather.My mother and sister say that they feel uncomfortable when they are outside home without a veil.I never stopped my sister from talking to the boys in her class.I never stopped her from going out to her friends house.

But giving freedom doesn't mean to allow her make mistakes which can be avoided by proper guidence.

Anyways this thread is about Usrael and Lebonan.We can start a new thread to discuss woemen's rights if people really want to know the real rights given to Women in Islam.

^
Can I as MhZ, what was your avenue to thailand.
What brought you here and how long do you think you will stay.

I feel a new thread rising in my breast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mhz

Well I dont care about what the Turks think of women and their rights.I cant justify the actions of all Muslim nations.I can speak for myself and I never forced my sister or my father never forced my mother to put on a veil when going out.Infact my dad had several arguments with my mother cos my dad was against the veil in hot summer weather.My mother and sister say that they feel uncomfortable when they are outside home without a veil.I never stopped my sister from talking to the boys in her class.I never stopped her from going out to her friends house.

But giving freedom doesn't mean to allow her make mistakes which can be avoided by proper guidence.

---

Off-topic for one moment.

Proper guidance: It sounds like the women in Pakistan should be teaching the illiterate men about guidance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Milkman

Proper guidance: It sounds like the women in Pakistan should be teaching the illiterate men about guidance.

---

Yes I agree.

How does it feel to drop a bomb on people?

Quote:

---

Once asked how it felt to drop a bomb on people, he replied: " I feel a light bump to the plane as a result of the bomb's release. A second later and it's gone, and that's all. That is what I feel. "

---

TIME.com: The High Price of Israel's Hubris -- Page 1

Lebanon = Israel's Vietnam.

So what's gonna be the end of this WAR??

self edit.

i tried to post a pic, but couldn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surasak

How does it feel to drop a bomb on people?

Quote:

---

Once asked how it felt to drop a bomb on people, he replied: " I feel a light bump to the plane as a result of the bomb's release. A second later and it's gone, and that's all. That is what I feel. "

---

TIME.com: The High Price of Israel's Hubris -- Page 1

Lebanon = Israel's Vietnam.

---

I guess if they asked a Hezbollah what he felt when he fired a rocket into an Israeli town, he'd say "A bit of a whoosh".

Saudi textbooks preach intolerance, hate

Despite post-9/11 policy change, children still taught to wage jihad


getCSS("3088867")https://teakdoor.com/images/smilies1/You_Rock_Emoticon.gifNBC VIDEO

https://teakdoor.com/images/smilies1/You_Rock_Emoticon.gif https://teakdoor.com/images/smilies1/You_Rock_Emoticon.gif

• Saudi textbooks teach intolerance
July 10: An eighth grade Saudi textbook equates Jews with "apes" and Christian infidels with "swine." Saudi officials meanwhile say they've removed intolerant teaching from the school system. NBC's Lisa Myers reports on what students are really learning.
Nightly News

Nightly News
var cssList = new Array();getCSS("3053751")https://teakdoor.com/images/smilies1/You_Rock_Emoticon.gifGet a behind-the-scenes look at how the news is gathered and reported.
Click here to read the blog of NBC Nightly News


var cssList = new Array();getCSS("3053751") SIGN UP FOR DAILY E-MAIL NEWSLETTER
https://teakdoor.com/images/smilies1/You_Rock_Emoticon.gifYour E-mail Address:
• More Newsletters


var cssList = new Array();getCSS("3053751")
var cssList = new Array();getCSS("3053751") Most Popular
• Most Viewed<IMG height=1 width=2 scr="/images/cleardot.gif">• Top Rated<IMG height=1 width=2 scr="/images/cleardot.gif">• Most E-mailed• Mideast fighting rages despite cease-fire plan
• Source: U.S., U.K. at odds over timing of arrests
• The Ripple Effect
• Brothers emerge as a focus of bomb plot probe
• Magazine says Kanye West is engaged
• Most viewed on MSNBC.com

• Molecular janitors help explain Alzheimer's
• Discoverer of ‘Van Allen Belts’ is dead
• Was the BP pipeline problem preventable?
• ‘The War Tapes’ is soldier’s-eye view of Iraq
• Stakeouts, tips and wiretaps led to arrests
• Most viewed on MSNBC.com

• It’s primo, man — real gouda stuff!
• Streets of resentment and fear
• Source: U.S., U.K. at odds over timing of arrests
• ‘The War Tapes’ is soldier’s-eye view of Iraq
• List of suspects issued in aircraft terror plot
• Most viewed on MSNBC.com

pop_pushTabBox('boxB_3053751');



By Lisa Myers & the NBC Investigative Unit
Updated: 4:02 a.m. CT July 11, 2006
function UpdateTimeStamp(pdt) { var n = document.getElementById("udtD"); if(pdt != '' && n && window.DateTime) { var dt = new DateTime(); pdt = dt.T2D(pdt); if(dt.GetTZ(pdt)) {n.innerHTML = dt.D2S(pdt,((''.toLowerCase()=='false')?false:true ));} } } UpdateTimeStamp('632882053429000000');

getCSS("3159408")https://teakdoor.com/images/smilies1/You_Rock_Emoticon.gif
https://teakdoor.com/images/smilies1/You_Rock_Emoticon.gifLisa Myers
Senior investigative correspondent
• Profile


WASHINGTON - In the classroom and across Saudi society, Saudi officials insist their message has changed dramatically. The land that produced 15 of the 9/11 hijackers now officially preaches religious tolerance and moderation.
In numerous statements, senior Saudi officials have specifically claimed that the kingdom has cleaned up all school textbooks.
"We eliminated what might be perceived as intolerance from old textbooks that were in our system," says Prince Turki al-Faisal, the Saudi ambassador to the U.S.
Story continues below ↓ advertisement ad_dap(250,300,'&PG=NBCMSN&AP=1089');


There has been progress. However, a new study found examples of intolerance, even hate, in multiple Saudi textbooks now used in grades 1-12.
Nina Shea's group — the Center for Religious Freedom — examined textbooks used during the past school year, and found the following teachings, which were verified by NBC News:

• <LI class=textBodyBlack>Jews and Christians are "enemies" of Muslims. <LI class=textBodyBlack>Every religion other than Islam is "false."
• "The hour [of Judgment] will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them."

"It's taught that Christians and Jews are the enemy of the Muslim," says Shea. "And that the Muslim must wage jihad in order to spread the faith in battle against the infidel."
What's more, an eighth grade text equates Jews with "apes" and Christian infidels with "swine." A tenth grade text teaches that the life of a Muslim is worth twice that of a non-Muslim.
"This is the ideological foundation for building tomorrows' terrorists," says Shea.
And it's not just textbooks. In Canada, moderate Muslims like Tarek Fatah charge that militant literature provided by the Saudis is radicalizing some young Muslims, like the 17 men arrested there last month for planning bombings in Canada.
"I see Saudi influence," says Fatah, the communications director of the Muslim Canadian Congress.
Fatah says a version of the Quran sent to Canada from Saudi Arabia in his possession includes added language encouraging jihad.
"The Quran does not ask people to conduct war against non-Muslims, but that's what the Saudis are distributing," says Fatah.
In one example, the word "Jews" is added to the translation, identifying "people" who have "strayed from God's laws."
"It's totally unethical, immoral and un-Islamic to do that, to play around with the words of God," says Fatah.
Middle Eastern sources tell NBC that the Saudi government has stopped distributing the Qurans in question. As for the textbooks, Saudi officials say they can only change as much and as fast as Saudi society allows, and that they are more concerned about how reforms are perceived at home than in the United States.

Are Israeli soldiers racist?

Why are U.S. networks afraid to confront Israeli spokespersons like they do elsewhere?

Israeli propaganda censorship

Why does Israel spy on us?

Video: Israel Is Spying In And On The U.S.? Part 1

And did Blair/Bush know about the Israeli plans long ago?

New Statesman - Blood on his hands