under god

**Texpat** · 01-12-2008, 04:22 PM

what do you think would happen to someone exercising their right to not voice the pledge of allegiance.

Absolutely nothing Ant. That's right, absolutely nothing.

I haven't stepped foot into a church, temple, mosque or synagogue in my entire life involuntarily. If I never wanted to utter the phrase god in my life, nobody would force me. Yes, me, a product of the state.

Your hair-brained ideas are fantasy.

**AntRobertson** · 01-12-2008, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Texpat

what do you think would happen to someone exercising their right to not voice the pledge of allegiance.

Absolutely nothing Ant. That's right, absolutely nothing.

I haven't stepped foot into a church, temple, mosque or synagogue in my entire life involuntarily.

So there would be no recriminations then, a child in a school wouldn't be labelled with an 'un___________' or 'commie' or whatever else it is that's used. I think that's decidely naive Tex. In a nation where objecting to a wrongful war gets you labelled it's no stretch of the imagination to say the same wouldn't happen here. And you're being specious, your own examples are irrelevant to the point I'm making.

Your hair-brained ideas are fantasy.

And your constant name-calling's tedious. Grow up Tex, really.

**Texpat** · 01-12-2008, 04:34 PM

No, Really Ant. Give it a rest -- for god's sake.

Do you know how many people in the US opposed the war?
A lot.
How you somehow attach religious significance to that is a head-scratcher.
Did you just make it up?
Honestly Ant -- give it a rest.

**AntRobertson** · 01-12-2008, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Texpat

No, Really Ant. Give it a rest -- for god's sake.

Take your own advice, I've done nothing other than voice an opinion. You're the one getting upset over it and resorting to name-calling. Which actually proves my point now that I think about it.

Do you know how many people in the US opposed the war?
A lot.
How you somehow attach religious significance to that is a head-scratcher.
Did you just make it up?
Honestly Ant -- give it a rest.

Tex, I haven't attached any religious significance to it, you're tilting at windmills. Re-read my posts. I can't be bothered defending a position that was never mine to begin with simply because you've ascribed it to me.

**Bugs** · 01-12-2008, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

It has nothing to do with a belief or non-belief in God. It has everything to do with the fact that claiming something like one is free to not voice the pledge of allegiance, whilst completely true, is entirely different from the practise and reality of the matter.

I don’t think it is different from the practice or the reality of the matter as it relates specifically to the pledge. I'll get to why in a bit.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Therefore the analogy to the Govt. and the war in Iraq's an apt one; those that didn't follow the 'party-line' were in effect shouted down and labelled with all manner of pejorative names even when it became increasingly apparent there was no justification. A phenomena that was even observable on here. So, again using that example, what do you think would happen to someone exercising their right to not voice the pledge of allegiance.

In the US labeling has become an art form and all parties seem to want to give it a go.

While I would agree that those that did not agree with the governments position where labeled all kinds of different things. But so where the folks that were in favor/supported the governments position (baby killers, war mongers, et al). But I don't think the labels had any real or lasting effect.

As for being shouted down - I don't doubt they were shouted at, and I am sure there were occasions where they were shouted down (all about having the numbers). But just like with the labeling there was plenty of shouting going on from all sides, and there were times when those who supported the government position where shouted down. Those opposed generally stayed firm in their convictions, and were not silenced on the whole, nor long term.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

So, again using that example, what do you think would happen to someone exercising their right to not voice the pledge of allegiance.

I can only speak from my rather limited experience. I went to school in a very religious area and two religious schools are part of our athletic league. Once I got old enough to know better, and to make a choice on the matter for myself, I quit reciting the god bit. I did not suffer any significant ridicule or maliciousness, and there is no way the fact that I was not saying the god bit was lost on the masses. My graduating class had less than 90 people and our class sizes were typically less than 25. No one was lost in the masses as my high school.

I’ll concede the fact that I don’t know of anyone that chose not to recite the entire pledge out of any kind of personal conviction. But I know of a few lads that did not say it pretty much out of plane laziness. They did not suffer any kind of personal attacks nor were the labeled for not saying the pledge.

This is not to say that there are no places in the US where this would be an issue. I am sure there are. All I know is that it was not an issue for me, and thus that there will be plenty of other places in the US where it will not be an issue for kids.

I’ll also concede that I had finished with high school by the time the war in Iraq #1 came about, and I have been living in Asia since before 9/11 so the issue of not saying the entire pledge might be more of an issue in some areas based upon current events at a given time. But I doubt any of these would have effected the lack of ridicule I experienced for not reciting the god bit.

It seems to me that generally speaking it is the folks that try to fight the status quo that tend to be the ones that get labeled and end up with a fight on their hands. This is true pretty much regardless of the issue (or which side of the issue one finds themselves on). As it relates to the pledge in the places that I am familiar with the current status quo is that students are required to stand but not recite, and typically the students are not required to place their hand over their hart any more either.

I don’t think requiring the students to stand is asking too much. It’s kind of like being expected to stand when a countries national anthem is played (regardless of which countries anthem is played).

One thing that also should not be lost on this issue is that we are talking about kids. Some kids will use any excuse they can find to heap ridicule on other kids. Pledge or no pledge anything that makes a kid stand out from his peers can lead to ridicule.

**AntRobertson** · 01-12-2008, 05:51 PM

^An(other) excellent, well thought out, reasoned and rational post, Bugs. The pledge of allegiance was just one, narrow, example but what you've said applies across the board I think. Point(s) taken and I see what you're saying.

Were but some others on here a bit more like you in approach instead of jumping straight in with name-calling and abuse and completely missing the point in the process.

**AntRobertson** · 01-12-2008, 06:10 PM

Were but some others on here a bit more like you in approach instead of jumping straight in with name-calling and abuse and completely missing the point in the process.

Originally Posted by blackgang

Very good post BUGs, very good.
But as you know, Antsy is a knut.

But he is a lawyer, so he will profess to know it all.

If it is indeed better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt I'd look into orifice-sealing surgery if I were you, blackgang.

**Boon Mee** · 01-12-2008, 06:21 PM

Back to the subject germaine at hand like what's so wrong with saying the Pledge and mentioning G_D, eh?

**Texpat** · 01-12-2008, 08:55 PM

Ant swoops in with these broad, incorrect, frankly weird generalizations, jabbers on a bit and then spends the next two hours tap dancing around his aforementioned foot-in-mouth episode.

As predictable as the sun coming up tomorrow.

**sabang** · 02-12-2008, 05:13 AM

The last time I was in the States was in 2003, a convention in Las Vegas. This was an interesting time, not long after the invasion of Iraq. French fries were Freedom Fries, and the Paris casino and resort in the strip had a bit of a temporary marketing problem, given that the place features something like a full size replica of the Eiffel Tower.

They responded by putting on a big neon billboard that they were "proudly American owned".

Right in the middle of the strip, near the Mirage & Caesars is a huge neon billboard. For the duration of my stay, this was showing a huge, billowing US flag with the words over it:-

"One Nation
Under God"

I remember thinking, wouldn't it have been so much more elegant, concise, and unifying to have just had "One Nation" transposed on the billowing flag.

Anyway, apart from that it was business as usual. No doubt different people had passionate opinions, but they weren't showing or discussing them in the Casino's.

DaffyDuck · 02-12-2008, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by raycarey

anyway, what say you...does this sort of religious phrase belong in what is essentially an oath of loyalty to a country which is supposed to be partially founded on the separation of church and state? and keep in mind that this 'pledge' is recited everyday in tax funded public schools.

Considering that The Pledge of Allegiance was authored by Francis Bellamy, who was a Baptist Minister and thus a Christian himself, I'd say that he's had plenty of opportunity to have added 'under god' to it, himself, if he felt it needed it. The very fact that the Christian author felt it better omitted leaves little question in my mind the the original intent was meant to respect the separation of Church and State.

Though, it needs to be said that the original Pledge, written 1892, was much shorter with "I Pledge Allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all", and it had 'the Flag of the United States" and 'of America' only added 1923 and 1924, respectively - both of which seem sensible additions.

We have the Knights of Columbus, and that idiot of a preacher to thank for the addition of 'under god', as so often small and insignificant people feel that by urinating on larger marks, can they leave their mark - of course, we can add the simple-mindedness of Dwight Eisenhower's newly converted religious zeal as well.

Personally, I would have no problems with children reciting the original pledge in schools, which, as a matter of fact, I commonly recite it myself:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."

The addition of 'under god' pushes it into Church/State territory, and thus it should either be removed from being recited in schools, or have the words 'under god' removed - neither of which is bound to happen in what has become a nation of sheep seeking 'comfort from their faith', with nary a clue of their own cultural history.

Sorry, getting a bit bitter towards the end.

By the way, for the record, Madalyn Murray O'Hare was the 'atheist lady' referenced earlier, and she was quite successful in her endeavor to end mandatory daily prayer in schools in 1964. She had nothing to do with the Pledge of Allegiance, though.

**Jet Gorgon** · 02-12-2008, 07:17 AM

Tell ya what, the day every nation wipes out god as a reference to the state, then I'd agree on taking it away. Go beat up some Islamic and other nations. God is god; people just pray to her and thank her in different ways.

**AntRobertson** · 02-12-2008, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Texpat

Ant swoops in with these broad, incorrect, frankly weird generalizations, jabbers on a bit and then spends the next two hours tap dancing around his aforementioned foot-in-mouth episode.

As predictable as the sun coming up tomorrow.

What's entirely predictable is your arsing on about anything and everything but the points actually made and constantly attacking the poster, not the posts. Perhaps you should take a break from Issues. Or drinking. One or the other, neither seems to be doing much for you ability to construct reasonable and rational thoughts.

**ItsRobsLife** · 02-12-2008, 05:18 PM

How predictable...

**blackgang** · 02-12-2008, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

God is god; people just pray to her and thank her in different ways.

Just what is this HER shit.. Can't hardly go for that as the pic I saw of GOD he was a dude setting on a cloud, and it was an actual photo, can't member the name of the photog, maybe was FF I am thinking..

**Jet Gorgon** · 05-12-2008, 05:56 PM

^ It is a Her. And Her name is Blanche.

**lom** · 05-12-2008, 06:09 PM

^ And she's a negro

**Norton** · 05-12-2008, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

It is a Her. And Her name is Blanche.

Originally Posted by lom

And she's a negro

Aka, Michelle.

**Jet Gorgon** · 05-12-2008, 06:39 PM

^ 555 Nice comeback, Norts.

**LSNEED** · 05-12-2008, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by ItsRobsLife

America was of course founded as a secular state as many of those that settled there were escaping the religious schisms of European politics.

However the U.S. is now a passionately religious state where non belief can lead to discrimination.

There are a couple of good reasons why this has become so. Firstly many immigrants substituted the community and family ties of the home country with the bonds of a religious network in the U.S.

Secondly because the U.S. is secular, religion has become a free enterprise, where churches compete for the congregation, and the money that they bring in, with all the agressive hard sell techniques of unbridled marketing.

The result being a religious mania so ingrained that to question it's nessecity is to question the fabric of society itself.

The average US attendance is about 40%; even have many Thai Wats.

**LSNEED** · 05-12-2008, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by Bugs

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

If ya want to go to church and do god or buddha or allah stuff -- you can.
If ya don't want to, don't.
If ya don't want to say the pledge of allegiance, don't say it.
If ya want to be an atheist or agnostic or pray to witches and unicorns, have at it.
If ya want to send half your paycheck to your church, knock yourself out.
If ya want to go there clandestinely on Sunday only for free cookies and coffee, wearing your Black Sabbath T-shirt under your sweater, have a blast.
If ya want to delete the church channels on your cable box, it's only a matter of pressing a few buttons.

All very noble and worthy sentiments. However in a nation where not supporting your Govt. in a patently unjust war which was based on lies and deceit gets you labelled 'unpatriotic', 'unAmerican' or - even worse - 'a commie' it all rings just a little bit hollow.

Good in theory, pity about the practise.

What does support or lack thereof, or being labled unpatriotic or unAmerican because of said lack of support for the government or the war have anything to do with the belief or non-belief in god?

It has nothing to do with a belief or non-belief in God. It has everything to do with the fact that claiming something like one is free to not voice the pledge of allegiance, whilst completely true, is entirely different from the practise and reality of the matter.

Therefore the analogy to the Govt. and the war in Iraq's an apt one; those that didn't follow the 'party-line' were in effect shouted down and labelled with all manner of pejorative names even when it became increasingly apparent there was no justification. A phenomena that was even observable on here. So, again using that example, what do you think would happen to someone exercising their right to not voice the pledge of allegiance.

Can not agree with this, I have travelled and lived all over the U.S.A. and have never seen this. Quite the opposite, have seen a majority of adults and school age children not say the 'Pledge of Allegiance.' Actually pretty much the norm in U.S.A. I mean come on; how many Americans do you really think know all the words to this or 'Oh Say Can You See?' Not very many. It doesn't seem to cause them to lose any sleep.

**DrivingForce** · 05-12-2008, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Bugs

I don’t think the word god should be included in the pledge. I don’t think a bible should be used when one is sworn into office. I don’t think the word god should be used when swearing in a witness in court. I don’t think the word god should be on US currency.

you know if you don't believe in God and do these things to conform to another's belief doesn't it pretty much exclude you from their meaning??

seems to me that could/should be a pretty good protection under the law against perjury.. I think I'd like to see such a case tested by the way of the supreme court..

as long as I'm not the defendant...

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