Thread: The Drugs Debate - Has Mexico got the balance right?

Do you think the Mexican government might just have the balance right? Is the US making too much of this?

Drug tourism fear as Mexico lifts ban on pot, heroin and cocaine

From James Hider in Mexico City and Tim Reid in Washington
TO THE alarm of its northern neighbour, Mexico is to decriminalise the possession of nearly every drug — hard and soft — that the US has battled for decades to keep off its territory.

President Fox is to sign legislation that will make Mexico one of the most permissive countries in the world when it comes to narcotics.

NI_MPU('middle');Users will be able to possess up to five grams of marijuana (the equivalent of about four joints), five grams of opium, 25 milligrams of heroin and 500 milligrams of cocaine — enough for a few lines.
Nor will they be prosecuted for possessing a few tabs of Ecstasy, small quantities of amphetamines or magic mushrooms, or even a kilo of so-called indigenous drugs such as the hallucinogenic peyote, a psychotropic cactus still used in shamanic rituals.

The Mexican Government says the legislation will allow the authorities to concentrate on fighting the violent drugs gangs that have turned several cities into war zones. But the Bush Administration fears it will encourage thousands of young Americans to head south as “drugs tourists”.

Cities such as Cancún, Tijuana and Acapulco are favourite destinations for US students seeking a good time in the sun.

A White House official said that American representatives met their Mexican counterparts this week to express opposition to the Bill.

“They urged Mexican leaders to review the legislation and to avoid the perception that drug use would be tolerated in Mexico to prevent drug tourism,” he told The Times. Asked to elaborate, he added: “Look at Amsterdam. You’re British. You know what we mean.”

Jerry Sanders, Mayor of San Diego, which is close to the frontier, said he was appalled by the Bill. “I certainly think we are going to see more drugs available in the United States,” he said. “We need to register every protest the American Government can muster.”
The legislation was approved by the Senate last week, and Rubén Aguilar, Señor Fox’s spokesman, insisted: “The President is going to sign that law. There will be no objection. It appears to be a good law and an advance in combating narcotics trafficking.”

While the new law will prevent jail terms for those caught possessing the stipulated amounts, local prosecutors may still be able to fine users under regional legislation, or even hold them for 48 hours in police cells.
Selling drugs will remain illegal. The Bill will stiffen penalties for trafficking and possession of even small quantities of drugs by government employees or near schools. Powers to hunt down drug traffickers will be extended from federal to local police.

Señor Aguilar said that the rules would clarify the rights of drugs users, whose fate has until now been settled by courts on a case-by-case basis.

“The Government believes that this law represents progress, because it established the minimum quantities that a citizen can carry for personal use,” he said.

Eduardo Medina-Mora, Mexico’s Public Safety Minister, emphasised that “possession of small amounts of drugs does not require a penal sanction”, and said that the laws would help Mexico’s battle against the cartels, whose struggles for control of trafficking routes have spread in the past year from the violent border towns of the north to the south, including the resort Acapulco.

The drugs wars have cost hundreds of lives and become increasingly gruesome. Last month two police officers from a rapid reaction force in Acapulco were decapitated by suspected drug gang members, and their severed heads left outside a government office with a note saying “Show some respect”. In the border town of Nuevo Laredo, the entire police force was relieved of duty last summer and federal troops sent in after gangs fought battles in the streets.
While Mexico argues that penalising petty drugs users is counter-productive in the war on the multibillion-dollar narcotics trade, its US allies in that war are less sanguine.

Sue Rusche, president of National Families in Action, said: “Lots of folks — especially kids — go down to Mexico for holidays and now they will have access to drugs.

“I am puzzled as to how the Mexican Government thinks it will decrease sales of drugs with these measures.”

Traditionally, Mexicans have used far fewer drugs than their American counterparts, and have blamed the US for fuelling cross-border demand of narcotics produced in Colombia and in Mexico itself.
But the recent habit of the two main Mexican smuggling gangs — the Sinaloa and Gulf cartels — of paying their traffickers and gunmen in drugs has led to a sharp increase in domestic consumption, as gang members sell their “fees” on the open market.
A BIG AND BRUTAL BUSINESS

The Mexican drug trade is carved up by four big cartels along geographical lines: Gulf, Sinaloa, Tijuana and Juárez
Under the Fox Government more than 700 police officers have been arrested for offences ranging from taking bribes to drug-related kidnapping and murder

In the same period 36,000 drug traffickers have been arrested

In the past 18 months more than 1,000 people have died fighting over the Mexican drug trade

Mexico produces about 10,000 tons of marijuana a year
Since the mid-1990s, Colombian groups have paid Mexican cartels to ship their cocaine into the US

Two thirds of the cocaine smuggled into America now crosses the Mexican border

82 per cent of all steroids seized in the US originated in Mexico

Same as Spain I guess, where you can carry coke if it's small quantity

Not sure if this is the right solution

A step in the right direction, the Southern neighbour can teach the US about 'freedom'. Of course this doesn't tackle the issue of 'addiction' but goes a long way for decriminalising small time users and regarding them as 'human beings'.

25 milli of heroin sounds very low, compared to the other amounts. A typo, perhaps.

Gonna be interesting to see what happens in the US. This has got to be seen as a major slap in the face to the anti-drug cummunity back home...
Step in the right direction? yes. In the wrong country? That too.

I think it's a step in the right direction too.

What is the point of penalising the small time user? If it gives the Mexican authorities more resources to takle the dealers then how can it be wrong?

The American response was typically ignorant (not yours Frankie).

Sue Rusche, president of National Families in Action, said: “Lots of folks — especially kids — go down to Mexico for holidays and now they will have access to drugs.

^ Completely failed to grasp the implications of what the Mexican Govt is trying to do.

The latest news I heard (BBC) is that President Fox will not sign the new legislation Pressure from his northern neighbour.
If this is true then it could become more of an issue than simple drugs legislation

The Netherlands have neighbours who initially weren't too happy about their substances legislation.
Amsterdam has attracted its share of hard-drug users from other countries, more of a problem for the Netherlands itself, really, otherwise it hasn't caused many ripples, contrary to what was feared.

Well, I have just read the following Camilla Cavendish article from the Times online. While I do not know if the figures used in the article are correct, and while I also feel some of the content is alarmist, I must say the girl talks sense to me.

See what you think.

Why not coke from Boots?

Camilla Cavendish
PARTS OF AMERICA declared war on Mexico yesterday for its decision to decriminalise the personal use of cocaine, LSD, heroin and other drugs. This “hostile action by an ally”, as San Diego’s mayor screamed, could send Americans rushing to party in Cancún — and addicts preying on Americans to fund their habit. What’s new?




NI_MPU('middle');The Mexicans are wrong to think they can stamp out drugs barons just by reprieving small-time users and refocusing police resources. But they have at least recognised that most recreational users do little harm to themselves, or others. The Americans have got to stop peddling the line that the war on drugs is working, and refusing to countenance any other approach. It’s a habit that is proving increasingly lethal for all of us.


Hundreds of Mexicans have been killed in the past year, including many police officers, as the drug cartels battle for control of lucrative smuggling routes. The Mexican Government is sensible to stop wasting time on recreational users who do little harm to themselves or others. But it is hopeless to expect that more police can sweep away a multinational industry that is bigger than Coca-Cola, and which bribes and shoots to protect its profits. This business is simply too big and too profitable.

Illegal drugs are now the lifeblood of organised crime in most countries. In Britain, gun violence has spiralled as a result. Whole swaths of Nottingham, where PC Rachael Bown was shot in February, are out of control. London sees one shooting and ten firearms offences every day. There are now so many contract killers on British streets, one policeman told me, that you can hire one for £200. The University of York has put the cost of drug-related crime at between £10 billion and £18 billion.

Criminals have merely filled the niche so thoughtfully created for them by politicians. Before the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 we treated addiction as an illness. Heroin addicts got their fix on prescription. After 1971 we handed them over to unscrupulous gangs who had every incentive to expand the market. Like any savvy marketeer, they have offered free samples to children, given discounts for trading up to harder substances and created a generation of desperate salespeople. Junkies, forced to turn to crime to fund their habit by prices that can be as much as 2,000 per cent above the wholesale price, have had every incentive to become pushers themselves. The result? Our laws have created the most effective pyramid-selling scheme in history: one that has turned between 6,000 and 15,000 addicts into closer to 250,000, in only 30 years. Pass it on, pass it on.

Something similar happened under Prohibition. The ban on liquor sent alcohol prices soaring, increased the number of hard drinkers and spawned an entirely new criminal class of bootleg suppliers and corrupt police. Do not underestimate just how corrupting this new form of Prohibition is, or how widespread the corruption. Take the drug problem in prisons. Visitors are proudly shown how post is screened for narcotics, and told about random tests, strip searches and sniffer dogs. Many conclude that the only way so many drugs can still circulate in jails is with the connivance of prison officers. Add to this the fact that random drug tests tend to push inmates into replacing cannabis, which stays in the body for weeks, with heroin or opiates, which can be sweated out in the gym overnight, and it is hardly surprising that our jails have become part of the pyramid. In whose interest is that, except those who make higher margins on harder stuff?

More than half of American prisoners are in jail for drug-related offences. They outnumber the entire European prison population. Nearly half of all women in British prisons, and 17 per cent of men, are there for drug crimes. The numbers just keep growing. More than half of the women have a child under 16, two thirds have a drug problem and many are suicidal. Most need treatment, not punishment. But more than 40 per cent of prisoners with drug problems who want treatment are not receiving it, according to the Prison Reform Trust. Where methadone is being prescribed — a success that Government is shy to talk about — crime is falling. But for those on the new drug treatment and testing orders, reconviction rates are running at 80 per cent. We are spending a fortune to get nowhere.

According to Transform, a drug policy foundation, we spend four times more on problematic drug users than on problematic alcohol and tobacco users. But the public health costs are the other way around: there are about 130,000 alcohol and tobacco-related deaths a year, compared with around 3,000 for all other drugs combined. Some of those deaths are avoidable, because they are caused by drugs being cut with cheaper substances by unscrupulous dealers. That would not happen if supply were legalised and controlled.

Mexico is not alone in breaking ranks. The Portuguese Government decriminalised the consumption of heroin, cocaine and other drugs six years ago, and has seen no rise in crime or addiction. Large-scale trials in Switzerland and the Netherlands suggest that legally regulating supplies of heroin can reduce property crime by half. Parts of Canada have introduced free heroin programmes for addicts, producing more squawks of outrage from America and wilder and wilder proclamations from the UN, whose conventions on drugs seek to dictate domestic policies in far greater detail than most international treaties.
The Church of Prohibition cannot just keep chanting “war on drugs”. The narcotics industry can only be beaten by governments taking over its market. Give Boots and Superdrug the right to supply cocaine, and the price would plummet. Place it next to the support tights, and it would cease to be glamorous. Take away the illicit profits and you would remove the associated violence, corruption and prostitution too. Some people will always be irresponsible, whether they are drinking gin or sniffing glue. So take aim at the law, not at Tijuana. Otherwise we’ll just have another blinkered, pointless, violent Mexican standoff.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...163858,00.html

Originally Posted by stroller

The Netherlands have neighbours who initially weren't too happy about their substances legislation.
Amsterdam has attracted its share of hard-drug users from other countries, more of a problem for the Netherlands itself, really, otherwise it hasn't caused many ripples, contrary to what was feared.

Pressures within the EU managed to close down the open sales of haschisch and marijuana in Christiania, a 'free state' in the center of Copenhagen started by a group of squatters in the 1970s.

Trivia: The symbol of the coffeeshop in Christiania, 'The Moonfisher', is similar to the DreamWorks logotype - only the coffeeshop has been around for a LOT longer... now, wasn't it DreamWorks that spent millions on educating us regarding the virtue of upholding copyrights?

As for the Mexico debate - I am not surprised the US are shitting their pants. They've spent brazillions of dollars on their 'War on Drugs', and Mexico's solution is diametrically opposed to their official policy.

I am not so sure Mexico's idea is going to work out all that well, but it deserves testing at least. There's been so much debating about decriminalization/legalization without decriminalization/legalization put into practice.

good idea IMO

but will the US let it happen ? perhaps not!

fuckn interfering USA bastard arrogant politicians

It would be interesting to hear what Storekeeper has to say about this. And Mrs Quirrel.

I was watching a program last night about how Canda's policy towards the issue of drugs and it would appear that the US now has problems with this both North and South of their border

Too bad the US coerced Fox into vetoing the legislation. It would have been a great move. Decriminalize drug use and bust the tourism door wide open in one fell swoop. Brilliant.

Did you see the news today that nearly 1% of Americans are behind bars? I wonder how many of them are for stupid drug possesion offenses?

well, as usual, using a stick to solve every problem, doesn't seem to work.

1% of the population ? maybe it should be more.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

1% of the population ? maybe it should be more.

Trouble is, most of them seem to eat so much that we couldn't afford to feed them.

^^^ agreed.

and how many of that 1% are non-white?

and incldue the drug possesion to drug realted crimes and u might find its almost 100% of those incareated!

Originally Posted by kingwillyhggtb

and how many of that 1% are non-white?

I think the point is that any society that needs to incarcerate that high a percentage of its population is in deep trouble. In other words, incarceration isn't working. Time to try something else. Legalization maybe?

Originally Posted by kingwillyhggtb

^^^ agreed.

and how many of that 1% are non-white?

and incldue the drug possesion to drug realted crimes and u might find its almost 100% of those incareated!

That seems highly unlikely. Looking forward to someone digging out statistics.
And what is the legal framework in Mexico? I guess enforcement has been 'irregular'?

Yeah, I know the CIA have been involved in the drug trade in a lot of places... here in South East Asia too if I am not mistaken? Was it the Hmong rebels in Laos that were financed with drug money...? That's a bit off topic though - interesting nonetheless.

Actually it was the french command that financed their war in Laos with drug money, hence; the "French Connection," when the French governement no longer had money to support it. when they (the french) left and the US took over, they really didn;t need opium money to finance what they were doing.
They did support and assist the Hmong generals though. This was a way of keeping them fighting and Yeah the hmong used the money to pay their "soldiers."
Did some fellas put a few ducats in their pockets while "doing their duty" Fuckin' A.
Land of opportunity and all that.