Thread: Brexit - It's Still On!

Originally Posted by buriramboy

So the remainers lose a referendum then because they don't like the result want to re run it on their terms. Sounds fair.

No I don't think that is the case. I think that the UK profits from its trade with the EU, in services as well as manufacturing products, too much to risk losing it for the sake of a referendum, in which few had sufficient information to make a sound judgment when voting. If there was a plan that enabled the UK to leave the EU in a profitable way, or even slightly less than par with current standards then fair enough, but none has been forthcoming.

I can't see any political or financial gain from leaving the EU in the short, medium or long term. I am still waiting for one of those supporting Brexit to come forward and explain how I am wrong and the gains that the future outside the EU will bring.

I very nearly went to Plan B in February, but am sticking to Plan A. I'm lucky enough to not need to work, only here to allow the wife to see Europe, and can happily retire tomorrow if I want to. If the Tories can only think of themselves, then it's time I did too.

Originally Posted by NigelFarage

People thought Singapore was doomed when it was expelled from Malaysia.

Ah yes, the parallels are quite striking, aren’t they.

Originally Posted by NigelFarage

So you can accurately judge or only make a prejudiced guess as to the position the UK would be in now had it voted leave in 1975 and not had its hands to the rest of the world tied including the Commonwealth? People thought Singapore was doomed when it was expelled from Malaysia.

No, and I don't think anyone else could accurately judge where the UK would be if it hadn't joined the EEC in 1973. However, It was debated back in the early 1960's and found that, much as they didn't want it, the EEC was the best course of action even with the stronger ties to the commonwealth present then. North Sea Oil was a major element in the UKs recovery but joining the EEC had enormous benefits.

I'm not sure how you can compare the UK and Brexit with Singapore and its independence in 1965; looks to be no more than a throw-away comment on your part.

^ I'm afraid I'm not convinced and think the idea of using the 'Singapore model' for the UK is doomed to failure. It is my view that it would cause an even bigger divide between the rich and the poor and and an even bigger divide between the North and South. It is certainly not soemthing one risks everyting to see how well it would work.

Originally Posted by NigelFarage

Every MP of a leave majority constituency could be forced to vote in a binary choice between deal or no deal, or have to resign. MPs from remain constituencies could abstain. A fix for the impasse which negates the need for another referendum?

I thought this was explained earlier with Edmund Burke's 1774 speech Representative vs Delegate...

^ One would hope it would be based on their consituency current opinion rather than that of June 2016. If the Government are allowed to change their mind, I don't see why the electorate can't.

It should also be remembered that the Withdrawal Agreement only passed through Parliament on the proviso that there was a Meaningful vote. That vote overwhelmingly rejected the May Agreement. Allowing it to be voted on again, and again, but not allowing the electorate to vote again in either a GE or another referendum doesn't seem quite right to me.

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

??? The house voted in a massive majority to leave by the 29th; that was put into law. But, it's ok for those MPs to change their minds because it parallels your wishes, but something that does not parallel your wishes, but is otherwise the same set of circumstances, is being silly??? Come on Troy, at least be consistent in your arguments or accept that there's change on all sides and everyone updates their position according to the situation.

My comment was with reference to the Meaningful Vote. That should have been quite obvious to all following this thread. To change one's mind based on May's resignation rather than what's best for the country is worrisome.

Originally Posted by NigelFarage

It's normal procedure for government policy to be refined before being passed. It's not normal procedure to go back to the country and hope they've changed their minds because of choppy waters that were fully predictable.

...fully predictable for the knowledgeable but not necessarily to the electorate and certainly not explained to the electorate. In fact the electorate were led to believe that all would be easy to negotiate and there would be no problems.

The lead up to the referendum contained many technological inexactitudes (on both sides) that have still not been fully explained.

I see all the EU flag waving nutters outside The Houses of Parliament have been fvcked off and replaced by an organised platoon of Union Jack wavers.

Word on the street is a group of Pagan Ukippers have dusted the Weegie board off and got in touch with Guy Fawkes.

11am tomorrow, Judgement day

Originally Posted by NigelFarage

If you're going to adopt that approach then referendums are useless

That's always been my view. They are no more than a snapshot of public opinion on a particular day and should not be relied upon to make strategic decisions, especially with respect to the economy. Public opinion can be gauged by alternative means and distressing circumstances can usually be navigated easily with strong leadership.

The problem is UK governments have blamed the EU for many of their own mistakes. It's becoming obvious now that the UK lacks good leadership and is still blaming the EU for their own weaknesses.

Originally Posted by NigelFarage

The EU's tactic has always been to try to force a second referendum.

In what way?

The EEC was notoriously difficult during the UK entry negotiations (according to the UK) due to its unwillingness to compromise in its fundamental principles. It is simply sticking to its principles in the same way during the exit process. The UK obviously needs to continue trading with the EU and, in order to do so, it needs to follow some simple rules. The less rules it wishes to follow, the less it gets in return. That's pretty straightforward to me.

What were the benefits of leaving the EU again? Remember I'm a dumb European with a UK passport.

Controlling our own borders and spending all the money we give to the EU at home, not forgetting an old skool black passport

Clean Break you fvcking self serving MPs.

We didn't vote for options or deals!!!

We voted to leave ffs!

Do your jobs or get voted out,you expense claiming snouts in the trough parasites.

Tomorrow is a national holiday, so take to the streets to celebrate

^ You mention something that has always puzzled me. Why is it that my third national wife always has her passport stamped on entry but never on exit. How does the UK maintain control of its borders if it doesn't know when someone leaves the country? It pisses me off when I do the visa forms because I need the ferry/plane ticket to show exit as it's not in the passport. Even a third world nation like Thailand has better control...

The perfect birthday Brexit present for PM May..

Where's this champion of the people when you need him?

Originally Posted by Troy

^ You mention something that has always puzzled me. Why is it that my third national wife always has her passport stamped on entry but never on exit. How does the UK maintain control of its borders if it doesn't know when someone leaves the country? It pisses me off when I do the visa forms because I need the ferry/plane ticket to show exit as it's not in the passport. Even a third world nation like Thailand has better control...

The UKBorder Agency have exit details on their systems.

Originally Posted by NigelFarage

That's pretty arrogant to me. The UK is more of a customer than a supplier, because of its trade deficit, and a customer shouldn't be having rules imposed on it in what is supposed to be a negotiated agreement.

Rules imposed upon both parties is exactly what a negotiated agreement is .
I don't know what business you are in but I am sure you have rules for your customers and they have rules for you.

Sir Martin's comments came on the day that another high-profile British businessman, Sir James Dyson, confirmed that he would be moving his company headquarters out of Britain, and instead locating them in Singapore.

Sir James' company, Dyson, said that decision was made because an increasing amount of its work revolved around Asian markets.

...and nobody bought that, did they.

The basis of Singapore's success was subsistence wages and low quality apartment living.

It's a low standard of living for the vast majority, particularly women...who frequently can't afford to live anywhere except with their parents unless they marry. You'd certainly need a steady flow of immigrant workers to replicate the model in the UK, and I guess that doesn't really ring your bells, Nigel.

Businessmen speak very highly of the place though. It's the 'forward thinking', I guess.

Have we left yet?
Oh...
Fire up the smelter!

Originally Posted by Troy

They are no more than a snapshot of public opinion on a particular day and should not be relied upon to make strategic decisions

Did you argue that point in '75?

Originally Posted by Troy

Why is it that my third national wife always has her passport stamped on entry but never on exit. How does the UK maintain control of its borders if it doesn't know when someone leaves the country?

Cuz a stamp on 'entry' is a Visa. You do not need a Visa to leave a country. The UK uses the barcode in ones passport when one leaves a country. That's how they 'control'. Simple innit.

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

I rather think the new default is a long extension, EU elections, and either another a second referendum and or a GE.

Asking the equivalent of children a simpleton question on par with "would you like to ban Mondays" is scarcely a good way to manage a democracy. The lower end of British society is really not a reliable bedrock for anything other than ignorance, stupidity, bigotry and prejudice. Certainly, if they combine with the deluded and the malicious, then disaster looms.

Brexit will be Britain's contribution to world history in how not to govern which is quite ironic when Britain gave the world the role model for parliamentary democracy only to see it come crashing down after giving power to the mob.

Looks like my earlier forecast is unfolding.

As I have said from the outset, the demagogic Brexit vote was to our parliamentary democracy what toilet grafitti is to English literature, and was no more expressive than the baying of the mob howling for more bones to be tossed to them at a time of austerity at the expense of others.

It has taken nearly three years to try to translate this stupidity into a strategy yielding a dividend that was both possible and acceptable but after thousands of hours of negotiation, deliberation and bargaining in the basement of political squalor the reality has finally dawned, it is impossible.

The common man spoke, and he was talking bollocks. Quelle suprise.

I said this was a disaster and that it would destroy the Tory party. May has gone in all but name, the EU is to hold its emergency summit and Britain remains tethered for a further year to the EU as it waits for a GE or second referendum, or indeed both.

Of course, parliament could vote for the polished turd today but it seems unlikely to pass through the DUP anus of obduracy.

That the decision should fall to be taken today is of course the sweetest of ironies particularly when one recalls those bombastic and vapid boasts from Messrs. Davis, Fox, Gove, Mogg etc all those months ago when they stupidly claimed the negotiations would be the easiest in the world to conclude and the EU would be putty in their hands.

Brexit is the perfect shit sandwich that just keeps on giving and the dumb English keep on asking for more.

Surely, the dumbest electorate in the western developed world.

T'is indeed Britain's finest hour!

Har, har.

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Cuz a stamp on 'entry' is a Visa. You do not need a Visa to leave a country. The UK uses the barcode in ones passport when one leaves a country. That's how they 'control'. Simple innit.

The passport isn't checked at all when leaving the UK. It is checked on entry and exit from Germany and France though.

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Did you argue that point in '75?

Yes I argued against having a referendum on the basis it was unconstitutional.