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Have you ever looked at the Human Rights Charter?Quote:
Originally Posted by ENT
Don't be daft. Israeli self defence against ongoing Arab attacks on its civilian or government forces in any form is a human right.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
Once Arabs and Muslims recognize that and cease their attempts to annihilate Jews and Israel, then negotiate realistically for a workable solution, as in a one state Israel, peace may ensue.
Until then, the killings will continue.
Well it's simple- an Eretz or Greater Israel is not, and cannot be, a Jewish state. As it happens, if Israel & Palestine merged, Jews would still be in the majority- and that is even taking refugee populations into account, not all of who would return.
So if 'Israel as the Jewish state' is the primary driver, then clearly it has got to be the two state solution. But perhaps people should be looking at this anew. I mean, even currently Israel is less than 80% Jewish- apart from the Palestinians and smaller populations of Druze and Bedouin, the 'official' figures even count non-Jewish spouses as Jews, which they are not. Furthermore it does not take into account the large amount of foreign labor, legal and illegal, in the country at any one time. I know they are not citizens of Israel- but they would still show up on a Census. It isn't as if Jews are a united Bloc, arms linked in solidarity either- they are anything but. Any glance at Israeli domestic media will show you that Israel is in fact a deeply divided country, along several lines.
So how about Israel as a strong, modern, affluent, pluralistic, democratic state?
That is why a one-state solution would definitely not work for Israel to remain a Jewish Homeland. Once the Muslims have eclipsed the population balance it's simply a game-ender for a Jewish State.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maanaam
The current Israeli leadership bases its continued occupation and settlement expansion strictly on a defensive criteria understandig that with todays missile technolgy Israel's narrow border keeps them on alert staus 24-7-365.
Sadly this has been a significant defensive basis of the hard-liners since Israel was recognized as a sovereign state by the UN in 68 years ago.
With each ensuing war it sounded louder.
If Israel makes a mistake on any of their borders they simply become toast...a lesson well learned 75 years ago in the ovens.
The infamous 'demographic time bomb'. A word on this- it has proven to largely be a fallacy. In fact, birth rates in the modern era for Israeli Jews and Palestinians are much the same. And then you've got Jewish immigration.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeeCoffee
There is however a 'demographic time bomb' of a very different nature, which comes down to who is doing the breeding. Secular, if you like 'modern' Jews, among which demographic you can count most of the educated and wealthy, do not breed very much- they are being rampantly outbred by their fundamentalist counterparts, especially ultra-religious Jews. So you have a generation emerging increasingly skewed towards those who will not serve in the Army on religious grounds, and very often do not want to work. Rather, they feel it their duty to breed, and study their scripture- and are quite happy to live off the resources of the state.
Some think it poses a greater threat to 'Israel'- however you wish to define it- than the Palestinians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
Do you have links to back this up?
I need to defend myself, so I'll just steal your land to make my borders stronger.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeeCoffee
I want Golan, to protect myself, so now it's mine.
What would you say if Lebanon captured the Golan and proclaimed it needs it to protect itself?
From your reasoning (and other Israel apologists), if Lebanon did capture the Heights, it would be fair go to them.
Is it all about might is right?
Personally, I think the Golan Heights should be declared a UN Administration Zone, belonging to no-one, and with both Palestinian and Lebanese farmers allowed to prosper there, and kick out the Israeli interlopers. It is a prime piece of land which Israel is taking for it's own on the excuse of defensive need. It's not Israels to own, but I appreciate it's strategic importance, so let the UN manage it. Israel couldn't complain about that as a buffer, could they?....Unless what they really want is the resources there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
Do you have links to back this up?
Gosh. Guess what? I went to this awesome site called google and typed this in, "israeli secular jews v fundamentalist jews birth rate". You'll be astounded to learn that it came back with loads of stuff related to the query I typed in. Amazing, eh? I think you might find that that the same technique could also help you find answers to many of the other questions you've asked here.Quote:
Originally Posted by RPETER65Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
Do you have links to back this up?
The political and public face of the Zionists has been and is especially aggressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maanaam
Pee's response:Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
The United Nations view:Quote:
Originally Posted by PeeCoffee
The reality:Quote:
The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, which brought the British mandate to an end in 1948, referred to a "Jewish state" and an "Arab state."
The views of the Israelis:Quote:
Modern Israel came into existence on 14 May 1948 as the homeland for the Jewish people. It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state," a term that appeared in the United Nations partition decision of 1947 as well. The related term "Jewish and democratic state" dates from 1992 legislation by the Israeli Knesset.
Since its establishment, Israel has passed many laws which reflect on the Jewish identity and values of the majority (about 75% in 2016) of its citizens. However, the secular versus religious debate in Israel in particular has focused debate on the Jewish nature of the state. Another aspect of the debate is the status of minorities in Israel, most notably the Israeli Arab population.
My view:Quote:
According to the Israel Democracy Institute, three quarters of Israeli Jews "believe that the State of Israel can be both Jewish and democratic", whereas two thirds of Israeli Arabs do not believe that such a combination is possible.
No way a one-state solution would work right now with the stumbling block being that a democratic constitution hasn't been passed yet. If it ever could be is the most interesting possibility in the Middle East.
(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_state and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish...mocratic_state)
Indeed. Most especially.Quote:
Originally Posted by wjblaney
And I suspect "public face" is a euphemism for outright blatant criminality such as using white phosphorous against Palestinian civilians and illegal collective punishment against Palestinians, and stealing their water etc etc.
And that serves them a right to global support, does it?
There are more than 10 Million Palestinians in the world of whom over 4 Million reside in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
Now do the simple math Sabang if it became one-state tomorrow or next year as currently there are 6.3 million Jewish citizens and 1.7 million Arab citizens in Israel.
Immediately a Jewish State would no longer exist if Palestinians decided to migrate back from points other than W Bank, E Jerusalem and Gaza. :chitown:
Look up how Israel came about occupying the Golan Hghts...hint - 1967. Funny that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maanaam
The difference being like living in sh*t up to your waist or up to your neck in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
Quote:
Originally Posted by ENT
By 1939 around 100,000 Arab labourers worked on Jewish owned orange farms, which Jews had been cultivating with improved agriculture since c.1900Quote:
Bullshit again- thoroughly disproved by the British governments census reports to the League of Nations.
Mostly Egyptians who'd moved into Palestine since 1850, or more recent Syrian immigrants and some Jordanians.
Quote:
Time after time, Arabs attacked Jews, their businesses and farms, culminating in the massacres of 1936-9 riots, where 415 Jews were killed against 5,000 Arab deaths'
That's obvious.Quote:
....more Palestinians were killed by Jews, than vice versa.
Quote:
This well armed body of newly united Arab groups attacked any non-Arab in Palestine if they could get away with it, British troops or Jewish settlers, at a huge cost to their own.
True, as the British were too busy propping up the planned new state of Jordan and building its infrastructure, to ensure impartiality in their mandate to govern Palestine.Quote:
Way more British troops were killed by Jewish terrorists, than Palestinian.
British Glub Pasha organized the troops for Jordan using them to attack Jews, while the British army turned a blind eye to his antics as they did to illegal Arab immigration.
Now I know you're mad.Quote:
Believe me, my actuarial life span is much longer than yours.
See Dr Bob above. GIYF. I'm not your damn kindergarten teacher. Yawwwn.Quote:
Originally Posted by RPETER65
That is a rather nonsensical argument, don't you think? For example, there are over three million Palestinian's residing in Jordan who are full Jordanian citizens. Why would they come back- and neither do they have any right to, under the most liberal interpretation of a 'right to return'. If you wish to look at what segment of the Palestinian diaspora 'might' come back- and possess any legal right to under a right of return- you would need to look at the stateless Palestinians in refugee camps.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeeCoffee
"More than half the refugee population lives in Jordan. Approximately 37.7% live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, comprising about 50 percent of the population in those areas. About 15% live in almost equal numbers in Syria and Lebanon. About 355,000 internally displaced Palestinians reside in present-day Israel". So in short, a large percentage of these refugees already live in Palestine & Israel. They hardly need to come 'flocking back'.
FAQs about Palestinian Refugees | Al-Awda: The Palestine Right to Return Coalition
I mean, to repeat this argument from a different perspective, according to Judaism online (World Jewish Population | Latest Statistics), the worlds Jewish population is 13.3 million, of whom approximately 37% live in Israel.
So the overseas Jews are all gonna come flocking back? Not on your nellie.
The 'right of return' only applies to stateless refugees, and it is simplistic to assume that 100%, or anywhere near, of them would come flocking back. I would envisage, under this scenario, deals would be done to grant the stateless Palestinians who would not return, legitimate residency in their country of abode.
Nevertheless, I am pleased to see that this thread has evolved into some sort of intelligent discourse, rather than having to deal with idiotic nonsense like "there is no such thing as a Palestinian". Long may it continue. I am aware that my open-mindedness to a one state solution remains a minority position- albeit shared by many more influential people than I, such as the current President of Israel- but I feel, given the emerging and entirely deliberate facts on the ground being created in occupied Palestine, it is at least worth looking at as a viable alternative. Frankly, if the way things are going continue untrammelled there will be no other choice left.
Israel had no/zero/zip global support when they declared independence. They carried on just fine without any allies. I'm sure they could care less about global support.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maanaam
In other news not reported on this thread so far :rolleyes::
On November 8, 2016Quote:
Committees of the United Nations General Assembly were scheduled to vote on 10 resolutions against Israel in one day. “Today’s farce at the General Assembly underscores a simple fact: The U.N.’s automatic majority has no interest in truly helping Palestinians, nor in protecting anyone’s human rights,” said Hillel Neuer, executive director of UN Watch. “The goal of these ritual, one-sided condemnations remains the scapegoating of Israel.
“The U.N.’s disproportionate assault against the Jewish state undermines the institutional credibility of what is supposed to be an impartial international body. Politicization and selectivity harm its founding mission, eroding the U.N. Charter promise of equal treatment to all nations large and small,” he said.
Among the resolutions voted on Tuesday were “Israeli practices affecting the human rights of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem”; “The occupied Syrian Golan,” and “Persons displaced as a result of the June 1967 and subsequent hostilities.”
The largest ever beneficiary of Foreign aid worldwide is..... (wait for it) ............... Israel.
Czechoslovakia supplied vast quantities of arms to Israel during the war, including thousands of vz. 24 rifles and MG 34 and ZB 37 machine guns, and millions of rounds of ammunition. Czechoslovakia supplied fighter aircraft, including at first ten Avia S-199 fighter planes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_A...e-up_of_forces
I doubt that amounts to zero global support- although, at that time, both Britain and the US thought the Israeli's would lose. Even Ben-Gurion thought it a 50/50 chance. But they didn't.
Eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by wjblaney
At midnight on May 14, 1948, the Provisional Government of Israel proclaimed a new State of Israel. On that same date, the United States, in the person of President Truman, recognized the provisional Jewish government as de facto authority of the Jewish state (de jure recognition was extended on January 31, 1949). https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/us-israel
On May 14, 1948, the day the British Mandate over Palestine expired, the Jewish People's Council officially approved a proclamation declaring the establishment and independence of the State of Israel.
The United States was the first country to recognize Israel when President Harry Truman granted de-facto recognition eleven minutes after the proclamation of independence. Three days later, the USSR granted Israel de-jure recognition. Nearly a year after its creation, on May 11, 1949, Israel was admitted as the 59th member of the United Nations.
https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/us-israel
:smileylaughing:Quote:
Originally Posted by wjblaney
wjblaney = idiot, ignoramus or troll.
Israel never received any financial support either.
:spam2:
Thread title: Arab social media is full of the filthQuote:
Originally Posted by wjblaney
First post: 26-11-2016, 06:49 PM
Your old "news": November 8, 2016. It's not surprising it hasn't been posted in this. So...
Why didn't/don't you start a thread about it if it is of interest to you?
You're so full of shit Nevermind, your mouth writes checks that your ass can't cash...Quote:
Originally Posted by Neverna
The US imposed an arms embargo on the Middle East on Dec. 5, 1947. "Otherwise the Arabs might use arms of US origin against the Jews or Jews might use them against Arabs," The embargo remained in place throughout the war.Quote:
Originally Posted by stroller
:doh:
On 12 January 1949 France recognized the existence of Israel and supported the decision for Israel to join the United Nations. In 1953 France started selling French weapons to Israel and became one of the closest allies and supporters of Israel[citation needed]. France then shared with Israel a strategic interest against radical Arab nationalism, as it had to cope with nationalist sentiment in its Algerian territories. During the late 1950s France supplied Israel with the Mirage - Israel's most advanced aircraft to date and their first serious combat aircraft. In October 1957 an agreement was signed between France and Israel about the construction of the nuclear power plant in Israel, which was completed in 1963. Future Israeli President Shimon Peres was the politician who brokered the deal. In Michael Karpin's 2001 documentary A Bomb in the Basement, Abel Thomas, chief of political staff for France's defense minister at the time said Francis Perrin, head of the French Atomic Energy Commission, advised then-Prime Minister Guy Mollet that Israel should be provided with a nuclear bomb.
Compared to yours, blaney, my ass is rich. And your mouth, well, you have a bad dose of halitosis that has the same smell as the shite in your head. That fasting sure fucked you up - not that you were anything like smart before it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wjblaney
Oh dear, another tender TD bromance is developing. :rofl:
Couldn't get past the witty slur and finish reading the post, eh dude? You cum sucking cock sucker. :rolleyes: :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Neverna
:rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by wjblaney
Drunk again, blaney? How many gallons of water this time?
:smileylaughing:
^^^ Sabang: "Nevertheless, I am pleased to see that this thread has evolved into some sort of intelligent discourse, Long may it continue. I am aware that my open-mindedness..."/QUOTE]
Is that Barry Manilow's "We Amost Made It" playing in the background ?:rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
:bsflag:
Top ten list of foreign aid recipients, (in millions US$).
Afghanistan....6.725.0
Vietnam.........4,115.7
Ethiopia,,,,,,,,, 3.261.3
Israel.............3,070.0
Turkey............3,033.1
Congo............2,859.3
Tanzania.........2,831.8
Kenya............2,654.0
Cote d'Ivoire..2,635.6
Nigeria...........1,915.8
From;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...aid_recipients
Oh, so Israel is fourth (by the measures above) after 2 countries that the US destroyed and one that is a natural disaster zone in terms of famine, while Israel, the so-called thriving, modern country, receives aid for what exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by ENTQuote:
Originally Posted by sabang
:bsflag:
Top ten list of foreign aid recipients, (in millions US$).
Afghanistan....6.725.0
Vietnam.........4,115.7
Ethiopia,,,,,,,,, 3.261.3
Israel.............3,070.0
Turkey............3,033.1
Congo............2,859.3
Tanzania.........2,831.8
Kenya............2,654.0
Cote d'Ivoire..2,635.6
Nigeria...........1,915.8
From;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...aid_recipients
I daresay the claim you call BS to is made without considering "Two OECD sub-types of aid are included - official development assistance (ODA), and official aid (OA) received.[3] " (ie real humanitarian aid) which ARE included in the figures you posted.
Just guessing ;)
Also, ENT 'forgot' to mention that the figures he pasted are for only one single year - 2012.
Disingenuous debating at its best...
What is the cumulative total? Israel gets billions annually from the USA.
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2016/12/372.jpg
Yes-Quote:
Originally Posted by Maanaam
"This is a list of foreign aid recipients based on the official development assistance (ODA) they have received for the given year."
The figure quoted is for the year 2013. :rolleyes:
Israel is, and remains, the largest recipient of foreign aid in the history of the world- by far. This is not even counting the private donations coming from the Jewish diaspora worldwide- which are enormous (and tax deductible). Also, somehow military aid seems to fly under the radar, as far as "official development aid" is concerned.
Whatever the Real figures are for the nett amount of foreign aid that has flowed to Israel, they are mind boggling. Enough to make the desert bloom. :)
AFAIK the only reason you all are debating the foreign aid received by Israel is to prove or disprove the point that Israel's worldwide support is increasing or decreasing. To what purpose?
- Israel have enough money
- Israel have enough weapons
- Worldwide support or condemnation means feck all
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2013/05/2879.jpg
No, it's YOUR claim that Israel persevered without support which started this.
Rubbish.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
"The figures shown are based onOECD measures and definitions of international aid.[2] Two OECD sub-types of aid are included - official development assistance(ODA), and official aid (OA) received'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...aid_recipients
Quote your source, and provide more recent figures.............IF you can.
I would think that the column stating Military Grant just about sums up what the "aid" actually is. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Neverna
Only before and during the War of Independence and only after one of the Arabs--Maa'man, I think--asserted that it made me a bad man to like Israel and Israelis.Quote:
Originally Posted by stroller
^
(Just borrowed your pic, thanks Stroller)Quote:
Originally Posted by stroller
From more recent figures gleaned from'
Net official development assistance and official aid received (current US$) | Data
Israel received US$105,260,000 last year., half of the figure reported for 2013
Around the same amount given to Turkey.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeeCoffeeI would think that the column stating Military Grant just about sums up what the "aid" actually is. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Neverna