Thread: Holocaust denial

It's moments like this you need kerux.

Isn't that some sort of Biblical journal? I'm interested more in the legal dimension.

By refusing to allow discussion on that subject in Germany, is this not the legal equivalent of Thaivisa's "Moderation policies will not be debated"?

You can debate whether holocaust denial should be illegal or not as much as you like, but is it illegal now - Germany is in a unique historic position in this respect.

It is regarded as offensive beyond acceptance to deny recent history. The evidence and witness accounts are easily accessible.

If you need to doubt and deny, do so elsewhere.

^we are not in Germany now Stroll and as moog said "This is a topic about jurisprudence"

So what if you are in Germany and you say

"Hitler did not exist"
or
"Muhammad was not the prophet of Allah"

1) Is that banned too? I.e is the law broad, or just specific to one event.

Its interesting because as Stroller says, it seems to be unique.

2) So What about other Jewish massacres - eg ones by the Romans? What if I said 'the Romans didn't kill Christ'...........<well thats true in a sense because he resurrected didn't he? (and he was Jewish - sort of)>

^ France have similar laws now like in Germany.

Denying the Hollocaust or the death toll in the camps is now an act of racism and anti-semitism and is therefore sanctioned, like any other racist acts.

I think the trauma Germany went through with Hitler and the allies, had to put Germany in some kind of "no questioning denial" state about its past. Wait for another 50 years, and maybe some historic facts will resurface.

I don't have the text of the law, but it's very specific:

Germany's parliament passed legislation in 1985, making it a crime to deny the extermination of the Jews. In 1994, the law was tightened. Now, anyone who publicly endorses, denies or plays down the genocide against the Jews faces a maximum penalty of five years in jail and no less than the imposition of a fine.

No Room for Holocaust Denial in Germany | Germany | Deutsche Welle | 23.12.2005
Germany is unique regarding the historic background, which IMO makes it understandable that such law has come to effect.
As mentioned, other countries have similar laws, in Germany, France, Austria, Belgium, Switzerland and in Israel, it is a crime publicly to dispute the official version of Holocaust history.

It's on its way to become EU legislation:

BRUSSELS: The European Union approved legislation Thursday that would make denying the Holocaust punishable by jail sentences, but would also give countries across the 27-member bloc the option of not enforcing the law if such a prohibition did not exist in their own laws.

The draft law, which EU diplomats called a minimalist compromise, gained approval after six years of emotional negotiations, during which countries with vastly different legal cultures struggled to reconcile the protection of freedom of speech with protection of their citizens from racism and hate crimes.

EU adopts measure outlawing Holocaust denial - International Herald Tribune

Ok, thanks. So it is event specific.

So Otto Remer should have argued for the repeal of that Law, rather than express his views on the holocaust itself.


ps Shes doing sit ups in the bath.

He should have joined his fellow Nazis in the land-of-the-free to publicise his views.

"....ensure that films and plays about the Holocaust, like Roberto Benigni's award-winning "Life is Beautiful" and Mel Brooks's musical "The Producers," were not censored."

The Herald Tribune article makes this good point. These movies did arguably trivialise the holocaust.

^
Was in Washington D.C. last week and stopped in the Holocaust Musemum - never had been in this one and it was heavy. If anyone is in good spirits when they go see one of these 'exhibits', they sure ain't when they come out...

^ you should try the Vietnam War Museum in Ho Chi Min City, it's also pretty grim. The americans walking around in the museum weren't proud.

I have never been to a holocaust museum, but my dad's outfit, 3rd armored I think, had a hardbound book made of their trip thru Germany and the pictures of the boxcar loads of skinny bodys, ovens with half cremated bodys showing thru the open doors, and stacks of bodys, groups of skinny jews, still alive but not by much is something I will never forget and I haven't seen that book since right after the war was over.

So I do know it was true, even if I was never there, my dad was.

Auchwitz is history, but race hatred in Europe is still a problem.

So they can sweep away inaccurate debate on the former, but it was still a symptom of the latter - which is the more important.

Do you think that Europeans are iffy about Turkey joining the EU because of racist issues?

Anti semitism seems to be different than most other hate 'isms'. It is so old and established, especially in Europe and history shows that people can be induced to absolute and utter hatred by words.

If the holocaust deniers were doing this is two or three hundred years, I could see why there should be debate on it.

They are talking about a vile and disgraceful event that happened in living memory, with loads of first hand accounts and documented proof.

To deny that it even happened is much more than just antisemitism, it is denying those people a history or even a right to justice and fair treatment.

You will have noticed that most holocaust deniers are saying it did not happen on the one hand, and on the other, they are saying, that the Jews deserved it (the holocaust that didn't happen).

I don't think there's any serious doubt that it happened, which therefore makes me more surprised that lawmakers feel compelled to legislate about it.

If I said "Hitler did not exist", - I presume that is legal, but I can't say "The holocaust did not exist"

So does that mean that the first statement is ....patently ludicrous, but the second is perhaps a bit less ludicrous?

Most Germans didn't know there was a holocaust, but it's been shown what really happened.
Denying Hiltler didn't exist is ludricous, denying the holocaust is perhaps a bit on the offensive side for survivors and their relatives, and a sore spot in German history?

Are there any restrictions on people publicly and vocally admiring Hitler?

Originally Posted by Lily

that the Jews deserved it (the holocaust that didn't happen).

Now why would they say that??

^You obviously havent seen IA and Kerux posting on the subject of the holocaust.

I don't know why they say that but I do know that Jews benefited from that a lot.

P.S. I do think that the numbers were exaggerated.

Originally Posted by machangezi

I don't know why they say that but I do know that Jews benefited from that a lot.

You mean in the sense of "Oy how we've suffered" repetitions.

Yes, they do seem to have placed themselves beyond criticism now, such a sanctimonious position possibly aided by the holocaust.

Originally Posted by machangezi

P.S. I do think that the numbers were exaggerated.

That's beside the point. 6 million or 3 million.

Does it matter?